improved crit debate-> [Archive] - Wizards Community

improved crit debate-> [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
darkestRose
05-11-07, 11:45 AM me and my DM debated over improved crit feat, it stating that you simply lower the numbers by 2, example greatsword 19/20 would be 17-20->, falchion 17-20 would be 15-20->. etc-> so on the composite long bow, crit being 20, would improved crit go to 19/20 or 18-20? from my understanding it would be 18/20.. nub question but just need a quick answer->
Zaistars69
05-11-07, 11:50 AM me and my DM debated over improved crit feat, it stating that you simply lower the numbers by 2, example greatsword 19/20 would be 17-20->, falchion 17-20 would be 15-20->. etc-> so on the composite long bow, crit being 20, would improved crit go to 19/20 or 18-20? from my understanding it would be 18/20.. nub question but just need a quick answer->

You double the crit range. if your weapon crits on one number (20) it now crits on 2 (19-20) longbow, battle axe, etc. if your weapon crits on 3 numbers (18-20) it now crits on 6 (15-20) rapier, falchion. if it crits on 2 numbers (19-20) it now crits on 4 (17-20), long sword, bastard sword, etc.
RobbyPants
05-11-07, 03:05 PM Yeah, if you want a simple formula to find what numbers threaten a crit, subtract your threat range from 21 (not 20). So a couple of examples:

A longsword (threatrange 2) crits on a 19-20 (21 - 2 = 19)
A battle axe (threat range 1) crits on a 20 (21 - 1 = 20)
A rapier (threat range 3) crits on a 18-20 (21 - 3 = 18)
A rapier with Improved Crit (threat range 6) crits on a 15-20 (21 - 6 = 15)

The only reason I posted this is that I played with people who kept insisting that their keen rapier would crit on a 14-20. No matter how many time I tried explaining the math to them, they wouldn't listen.

Edit:
Here's the SRD rules for Improved Critical (Emphasis mine in blue)

Improved Critical [General]
Choose one type of weapon.

Prerequisite
Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit
When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.

Special
You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Frugal
05-11-07, 05:47 PM The only reason I posted this is that I played with people who kept insisting that their keen rapier would crit on a 14-20. No matter how many time I tried explaining the math to them, they wouldn't listen.

:confused: How on earth were they getting 14-20? Maybe it's just because I know the math and obviously they don't, just curious how they were making the mistake.
Cariyaga
05-11-07, 05:54 PM I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW!
1hitparry
05-11-07, 06:26 PM Generally, TWF or archery feats are better for a rogue than Improved Crit since criticals do not increase sneak attack damage.
Nova Fujit
05-11-07, 09:14 PM improved crit is extremely handy if you have the feat to apply sneak attack damage to a confirmed critical...
Frugal
05-11-07, 09:39 PM I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW!

Remember that it's only a crit if the 15 would hit the opponent.
Optimator
05-11-07, 09:56 PM Telling Blow and Improved Crit are pretty sweet.
Cariyaga
05-11-07, 10:12 PM My character already has TWF, and Weapon Finesse, so...yeah. I have a +5 dex, too. That's more than most fighters have strength! Regardless...

improved crit is extremely handy if you have the feat to apply sneak attack damage to a confirmed critical...

What feat and where?
Nathreet
05-11-07, 10:23 PM I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW!

Generally, TWF or archery feats are better for a rogue than Improved Crit since criticals do not increase sneak attack damage.

Archery feats, yes. TWF maybe. TWF means melee rogue with low AC & HP. That means pain for the rogue unless he has an alternate means of protecting himself.

Before improved crit, 15% of his hits are crits. Afterwards, 30% of hits are crits (assuming he can hit on a 15-20; otherwise, his effective threat range is only what hits). Yeah, I did the math, that's the exact number after you consider confirming the crit, etc. All the complicated stuff cancels out and it comes to simply 5% x threat range (again, assuming his entire threat range hits).

Cariyaga: Assuming your rogue deals 1d6+2, improved crit increases his average damage from 6.325 to 7.15 damage. He gains 0.825 damage on average. Not the greatest, but not all that bad either. If I were trying to max out damage and already had the other feats I wanted, I would still take improved crit. I assume you have weapon focus already, to help you get more hits. Dodge might also be nice to up your AC against the creatures you flank or sneak up on. +1 AB or AC translates to +/- 10% hits given / taken, assuming you currently a 50% chance of hitting or getting hit. That's far from small.

As for burst enchantments, even with an improved crit rapier they add less than regular energy damage enchantments. I'd also get boots of speed for the extra attack.
Ozymandias V.
05-12-07, 02:26 AM What feat and where?
Like Optimator said, Telling Blow. It's in the PHB2.
Linklegacy77
05-12-07, 01:00 PM That is, the feat lets you deal sneak attack damage on every confirmed critical, even if you normally wouldn't deal sneak attack damage, but it doesn't multiply sneak attack damage.
dragons12
05-12-07, 04:11 PM i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it.
Orange20SiderOfDeath
05-12-07, 04:23 PM i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it.

UMMM it must be nice having a christmas DM. Technically that is a epic weapon, "20th lvl barbarian"
Zaistars69
05-12-07, 08:27 PM i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it.

of course you don't need impoved crit you have keen.
Cariyaga
08-13-07, 03:55 AM To clarify: I shall be getting OSTWF, TB, and IC. SAing 30% of the time, with 2 weapons, is never a bad thing.
Templario
08-13-07, 07:49 AM UMMM it must be nice having a christmas DM. Technically that is a epic weapon, "20th lvl barbarian"

Or maybe it's a +5, but he added the keen (+1), Ghost touch (+1? +2?), flaming (+1) andicy burst (+2 IIRC) = +9 or +10 total bonus.

Or his DM is the most exalted of his kind. I wanna know him; I have a Planar Shepherd build inside my sleeve :rolleyes:

of course you don't need impoved crit you have keen.

haha :D
Hsien
08-13-07, 09:34 AM Telling Blow note:
Also keep in mind that TB does not stack if you are already doing sneak attack damage that round.

i.e If you are flanking and critical; you only get the sneak damage once.
Frugal
08-13-07, 10:39 AM Telling Blow note:
Also keep in mind that TB does not stack if you are already doing sneak attack damage that round.

i.e If you are flanking and critical; you only get the sneak damage once.

Yep, it's just another method to gain sneak attack but you still only qualify for it once (at most).

Also remember that you still have to hit, a lot of people seem to forget that while a natural 15 might be a threat of a crit (with the right weapon) that doesn't mean it's a hit, only a natural 20 is an auto-hit.
RobbyPants
08-13-07, 11:37 AM :confused: How on earth were they getting 14-20? Maybe it's just because I know the math and obviously they don't, just curious how they were making the mistake.
Bad math. Or, as Edward Norton put it in Rounders: "Crazy gorilla math"

Basically (the way I look at it), you can find the bottom end of a crit threat by subtracting the threat range from 21. So an axe (threat range 1) will threaten a crit on a 20. A sword (TR 2) will threaten a crit on a 19-20. A keen rapier (TR 6) will threaten on a 15-20.

Their problem is that they were assuming you would subtract form 20 (probably because it's a 20 sided die), so by their gorrila math, a keen rapier would threaten on a 14-20. Back in 3.0, they thought Improved Crit with a keen rapier would threaten on an 11-20. I tried explaining this, but they wouldn't listen. They never had a good answer for me why an axe wouldn't threaten on a 19-20 based on their logic. ;)
Frugal
08-13-07, 11:46 AM Their problem is that they were assuming you would subtract form 20 (probably because it's a 20 sided die), so by their gorrila math, a keen rapier would threaten on a 14-20. Back in 3.0, they thought Improved Crit with a keen rapier would threaten on an 11-20. I tried explaining this, but they wouldn't listen. They never had a good answer for me why an axe wouldn't threaten on a 19-20 based on their logic. ;)

Right, so basically, "we think it works this way and won't listen to examples that clearly indicate otherwise", good times. Suppose you could make it work by saying that 20 is a threat range of 0 and then base it all off 20 instead of 21 but then you'd end up with the correct math for the rapier and the strange result that improved crit and/or keen have no effect on weapons that crit on a 20 (2 x 0 = 0) :D
Majick
08-13-07, 11:55 AM It's a real shame Improved Critical and Keen don't stack anymore...

...pity
goawayugh
08-13-07, 12:13 PM +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it.

Do you realize that this weapon costs 2,560,000 gp? (9 + 3 (ghost touch) + 1 (flaming) + 2 (icey burst) + 1 (keen)=16 * 16=256 *1,000=256,000*10 (for being epic)=2,560,000). The starting wealth for a 20th level character is 760,000. It is recommended that a single item not cost more than 25% of your starting gold. By that formula, you would have to be 38th level to be able to afford that weapon.
Gold Katana
08-13-07, 12:30 PM Just wanted to add the (perhaps redundant) clarification that the weapon stats listed at the beginning of the discussion were for THREAT ranges, they are not CRITs.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-13-07, 05:39 PM Do you realize that this weapon costs 2,560,000 gp? (9 + 3 (ghost touch) + 1 (flaming) + 2 (icey burst) + 1 (keen)=16 * 16=256 *1,000=256,000*10 (for being epic)=2,560,000). The starting wealth for a 20th level character is 760,000. It is recommended that a single item not cost more than 25% of your starting gold. By that formula, you would have to be 38th level to be able to afford that weapon.

Ghost touch is a +1 modifier, not +3.
goawayugh
08-13-07, 09:27 PM Ghost touch is a +1 modifier, not +3.

Oops, my bad. I hastily looked it up in the SRD and just realized that I was looking at the armor price. It is still too expensive: 1,960,000 gp.
Mokar
08-13-07, 10:31 PM I also like Power Crit with these feats.

Telling Blow and Improved Crit are pretty sweet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkestRose 05-11-07, 11:45 AM	me and my DM debated over improved crit feat, it stating that you simply lower the numbers by 2, example greatsword 19/20 would be 17-20->, falchion 17-20 would be 15-20->. etc-> so on the composite long bow, crit being 20, would improved crit go to 19/20 or 18-20? from my understanding it would be 18/20.. nub question but just need a quick answer->
Zaistars69 05-11-07, 11:50 AM	me and my DM debated over improved crit feat, it stating that you simply lower the numbers by 2, example greatsword 19/20 would be 17-20->, falchion 17-20 would be 15-20->. etc-> so on the composite long bow, crit being 20, would improved crit go to 19/20 or 18-20? from my understanding it would be 18/20.. nub question but just need a quick answer-> You double the crit range. if your weapon crits on one number (20) it now crits on 2 (19-20) longbow, battle axe, etc. if your weapon crits on 3 numbers (18-20) it now crits on 6 (15-20) rapier, falchion. if it crits on 2 numbers (19-20) it now crits on 4 (17-20), long sword, bastard sword, etc.
RobbyPants 05-11-07, 03:05 PM	Yeah, if you want a simple formula to find what numbers threaten a crit, subtract your threat range from 21 (not 20). So a couple of examples: A longsword (threatrange 2) crits on a 19-20 (21 - 2 = 19) A battle axe (threat range 1) crits on a 20 (21 - 1 = 20) A rapier (threat range 3) crits on a 18-20 (21 - 3 = 18) A rapier with Improved Crit (threat range 6) crits on a 15-20 (21 - 6 = 15) The only reason I posted this is that I played with people who kept insisting that their keen rapier would crit on a 14-20. No matter how many time I tried explaining the math to them, they wouldn't listen. Edit: Here's the SRD rules for Improved Critical (Emphasis mine in blue) Improved Critical [General] Choose one type of weapon. Prerequisite Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8. Benefit When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled. Special You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. A fighter may select Improved Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Frugal 05-11-07, 05:47 PM	The only reason I posted this is that I played with people who kept insisting that their keen rapier would crit on a 14-20. No matter how many time I tried explaining the math to them, they wouldn't listen. :confused: How on earth were they getting 14-20? Maybe it's just because I know the math and obviously they don't, just curious how they were making the mistake.
Cariyaga 05-11-07, 05:54 PM	I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW!
1hitparry 05-11-07, 06:26 PM	Generally, TWF or archery feats are better for a rogue than Improved Crit since criticals do not increase sneak attack damage.
Nova Fujit 05-11-07, 09:14 PM	improved crit is extremely handy if you have the feat to apply sneak attack damage to a confirmed critical...
Frugal 05-11-07, 09:39 PM	I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW! Remember that it's only a crit if the 15 would hit the opponent.
Optimator 05-11-07, 09:56 PM	Telling Blow and Improved Crit are pretty sweet.
Cariyaga 05-11-07, 10:12 PM	My character already has TWF, and Weapon Finesse, so...yeah. I have a +5 dex, too. That's more than most fighters have strength! Regardless... improved crit is extremely handy if you have the feat to apply sneak attack damage to a confirmed critical... What feat and where?
Nathreet 05-11-07, 10:23 PM	I can't wait for my rogue to get Improved Crit. (Rapier). 15-20 crit range FTW! Generally, TWF or archery feats are better for a rogue than Improved Crit since criticals do not increase sneak attack damage. Archery feats, yes. TWF maybe. TWF means melee rogue with low AC & HP. That means pain for the rogue unless he has an alternate means of protecting himself. Before improved crit, 15% of his hits are crits. Afterwards, 30% of hits are crits (assuming he can hit on a 15-20; otherwise, his effective threat range is only what hits). Yeah, I did the math, that's the exact number after you consider confirming the crit, etc. All the complicated stuff cancels out and it comes to simply 5% x threat range (again, assuming his entire threat range hits). Cariyaga: Assuming your rogue deals 1d6+2, improved crit increases his average damage from 6.325 to 7.15 damage. He gains 0.825 damage on average. Not the greatest, but not all that bad either. If I were trying to max out damage and already had the other feats I wanted, I would still take improved crit. I assume you have weapon focus already, to help you get more hits. Dodge might also be nice to up your AC against the creatures you flank or sneak up on. +1 AB or AC translates to +/- 10% hits given / taken, assuming you currently a 50% chance of hitting or getting hit. That's far from small. As for burst enchantments, even with an improved crit rapier they add less than regular energy damage enchantments. I'd also get boots of speed for the extra attack.
Ozymandias V. 05-12-07, 02:26 AM	What feat and where? Like Optimator said, Telling Blow. It's in the PHB2.
Linklegacy77 05-12-07, 01:00 PM	That is, the feat lets you deal sneak attack damage on every confirmed critical, even if you normally wouldn't deal sneak attack damage, but it doesn't multiply sneak attack damage.
dragons12 05-12-07, 04:11 PM	i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it.
Orange20SiderOfDeath 05-12-07, 04:23 PM	i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it. UMMM it must be nice having a christmas DM. Technically that is a epic weapon, "20th lvl barbarian"
Zaistars69 05-12-07, 08:27 PM	i am playing a 20th level barbarian who does not need imp crit because i have a 32 str and con but i also have power attack cleave great cleave and supreme cleave at my disposal. i have a +40/+35/+30/+25 to hit too so unless i am fighting a god i am going to hit so anyway yeah imp crit is maily for fighters and barbarians who mainly deal with just melee combat and dont have any special abilities that arent added into the equation for damage unless you are like me and have a +9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it. of course you don't need impoved crit you have keen.
Cariyaga 08-13-07, 03:55 AM	To clarify: I shall be getting OSTWF, TB, and IC. SAing 30% of the time, with 2 weapons, is never a bad thing.
Templario 08-13-07, 07:49 AM	UMMM it must be nice having a christmas DM. Technically that is a epic weapon, "20th lvl barbarian" Or maybe it's a +5, but he added the keen (+1), Ghost touch (+1? +2?), flaming (+1) andicy burst (+2 IIRC) = +9 or +10 total bonus. Or his DM is the most exalted of his kind. I wanna know him; I have a Planar Shepherd build inside my sleeve :rolleyes: of course you don't need impoved crit you have keen. haha :D
Hsien 08-13-07, 09:34 AM	Telling Blow note: Also keep in mind that TB does not stack if you are already doing sneak attack damage that round. i.e If you are flanking and critical; you only get the sneak damage once.
Frugal 08-13-07, 10:39 AM	Telling Blow note: Also keep in mind that TB does not stack if you are already doing sneak attack damage that round. i.e If you are flanking and critical; you only get the sneak damage once. Yep, it's just another method to gain sneak attack but you still only qualify for it once (at most). Also remember that you still have to hit, a lot of people seem to forget that while a natural 15 might be a threat of a crit (with the right weapon) that doesn't mean it's a hit, only a natural 20 is an auto-hit.
RobbyPants 08-13-07, 11:37 AM	:confused: How on earth were they getting 14-20? Maybe it's just because I know the math and obviously they don't, just curious how they were making the mistake. Bad math. Or, as Edward Norton put it in Rounders: "Crazy gorilla math" Basically (the way I look at it), you can find the bottom end of a crit threat by subtracting the threat range from 21. So an axe (threat range 1) will threaten a crit on a 20. A sword (TR 2) will threaten a crit on a 19-20. A keen rapier (TR 6) will threaten on a 15-20. Their problem is that they were assuming you would subtract form 20 (probably because it's a 20 sided die), so by their gorrila math, a keen rapier would threaten on a 14-20. Back in 3.0, they thought Improved Crit with a keen rapier would threaten on an 11-20. I tried explaining this, but they wouldn't listen. They never had a good answer for me why an axe wouldn't threaten on a 19-20 based on their logic. ;)
Frugal 08-13-07, 11:46 AM	Their problem is that they were assuming you would subtract form 20 (probably because it's a 20 sided die), so by their gorrila math, a keen rapier would threaten on a 14-20. Back in 3.0, they thought Improved Crit with a keen rapier would threaten on an 11-20. I tried explaining this, but they wouldn't listen. They never had a good answer for me why an axe wouldn't threaten on a 19-20 based on their logic. ;) Right, so basically, "we think it works this way and won't listen to examples that clearly indicate otherwise", good times. Suppose you could make it work by saying that 20 is a threat range of 0 and then base it all off 20 instead of 21 but then you'd end up with the correct math for the rapier and the strange result that improved crit and/or keen have no effect on weapons that crit on a 20 (2 x 0 = 0) :D
Majick 08-13-07, 11:55 AM	It's a real shame Improved Critical and Keen don't stack anymore... ...pity
goawayugh 08-13-07, 12:13 PM	+9 great axe with ghost touch flaming and icy burst and keen on it. Do you realize that this weapon costs 2,560,000 gp? (9 + 3 (ghost touch) + 1 (flaming) + 2 (icey burst) + 1 (keen)=16 * 16=256 1,000=256,00010 (for being epic)=2,560,000). The starting wealth for a 20th level character is 760,000. It is recommended that a single item not cost more than 25% of your starting gold. By that formula, you would have to be 38th level to be able to afford that weapon.
Gold Katana 08-13-07, 12:30 PM	Just wanted to add the (perhaps redundant) clarification that the weapon stats listed at the beginning of the discussion were for THREAT ranges, they are not CRITs.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-13-07, 05:39 PM	Do you realize that this weapon costs 2,560,000 gp? (9 + 3 (ghost touch) + 1 (flaming) + 2 (icey burst) + 1 (keen)=16 * 16=256 1,000=256,00010 (for being epic)=2,560,000). The starting wealth for a 20th level character is 760,000. It is recommended that a single item not cost more than 25% of your starting gold. By that formula, you would have to be 38th level to be able to afford that weapon. Ghost touch is a +1 modifier, not +3.
goawayugh 08-13-07, 09:27 PM	Ghost touch is a +1 modifier, not +3. Oops, my bad. I hastily looked it up in the SRD and just realized that I was looking at the armor price. It is still too expensive: 1,960,000 gp.
Mokar 08-13-07, 10:31 PM	I also like Power Crit with these feats. Telling Blow and Improved Crit are pretty sweet.