Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nessaj 05-12-07, 04:45 PM	I'm planning ahead for my gestault Fighter/Monk, and I was wondering whether Improved Critical was worth the 10th level feat investment to get a 19-20 threat range. My damage at that level will be significant, having invested in Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning, and Improved Natural Attack, but I'm still not sure if it's really worthwhile; no matter how many feats you have, there's never enough to do what you want to do :rolleyes:
Part-Human2 05-12-07, 07:53 PM	A full BAB Flurry of Unarmed Strikes is a lot of attacks each round so it should pay off in the long run.
jaelis 05-12-07, 09:09 PM	Probably not. Improved Crit increases your average damage per hit by about 5%. So if you average 20 hp per hit, which is pretty good for an unarmed strike, it's worth about +1 hp damage. That's about the same benefit as EWP (bastard sword), about half as good as Weapon Specialization. More damage is more damage, so if you have feats to spare you could take it. But I'd be looking for something else, myself.
Nessaj 05-12-07, 09:44 PM	Just what I was hoping for; someone to number-crunch for me and give me the breakdown. Math doesn't lie. Except when my class averages come in, that is. No Improved Crit for me then, unless someone can either refute it or tell me why I should take it. Probably gonna grab Hold the Line then so I can clothesline people with Knock-Down when they charge me :cool: Go Fighter-Monks!
Horus_Sungod 05-12-07, 09:47 PM	Unless of course you are a warforged or a half-iron golem, and take 7 levels of Disciple of Dispater and improved critical. :) You ARE attacking with iron weapons after all! Although it creates a not-so-mighty crit range of 17-20...
Dheran 05-12-07, 10:35 PM	You might consider Snap Kick instead. You'll get an extra unarmed attack with 1/2 STR bonus anytime you make a melee attack, so it's good for standard action attacks as well as full attacks.
Linklegacy77 05-12-07, 10:47 PM	Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of battle) to be treated as a monk 4 levels higher for unarmed damage.
Dheran 05-13-07, 12:01 AM	Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of battle) to be treated as a monk 4 levels higher for unarmed damage. At 10th level it's better to save the feat and buy a Monk's Belt. You get +5 levels for unarmed damage: the same boost at 10th level, but more than the feat at 11th level. You also get +1 to AC and you'll be able to sell the item later when you outgrow it. (It's harder to do that with feats.)
risner 05-13-07, 12:25 PM	I'm planning ahead for my gestault Fighter/Monk, and I was wondering whether Improved Critical was worth the 10th level feat investment to get a 19-20 threat range. My damage at that level will be significant, having invested in Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning, and Improved Natural Attack, but I'm still not sure if it's really worthwhile; no matter how many feats you have, there's never enough to do what you want to do :rolleyes: Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack is roughly 4.5% increase (depending on your monk unarmed and if it increases) Improved Critical is based on crit range (20=4.76% and 19-20=9.09%) Weapon Specialization is roughly 36.36% to 16.67% (gets worse as you level since it represents less and less of your damage.) Weapon Mastery Blud is 62.28% to 47.63% (gets worse as you level)
StruckingFuggle 05-13-07, 02:07 PM	Alternatively, you might want to take a look at Freezing the Lifeblood. Now, instead of Stunning someone with Stunning Fist, you'd be paralyzing them - leaving them Helpless - for 1d4+1 rounds. :)
Xeviat-DM 05-13-07, 02:09 PM	Improved Critical has an advantage over Weapon Specialization in that Improved Critical increases your damage by a percentage rather than a flat number. As the others have been pointing out, Improved Critical is useful when the amount you add to your damage (from strength bonuses, enhanced gauntlets, feats, and other effects) exceed certain amounts. I believe the amount is 40, as the others pointed out, when you'll be gaining more than +2 damage from the feat. If you're playing in a game which utilizes Damage Thresholds or WP/VP, or any other system which favors crits or high damage, you might find Improved Critical to be more useful.
Linklegacy77 05-13-07, 02:44 PM	Well, he could get superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt for unarmed damage as a monk 9 levels higher, right?
Nessaj 05-13-07, 08:18 PM	From what I'm reading, then, it seems that Improved Critical really isn't all that worthwhile; the damage increase is minimal compared to Weapon Spec and Mastery. That's kinda what I figured, but I just wanted to be certain. Thanks people. Alternatively, you might want to take a look at Freezing the Lifeblood. Now, instead of Stunning someone with Stunning Fist, you'd be paralyzing them - leaving them Helpless - for 1d4+1 rounds. :) The char's a boxer-type; he doesn't use Stuns and other Ki attacks, but rather flat-out beats the crap out of you. His Wis is a 10, in fact. Trips, Grapples, etc...Pure Fighter on one side, going Tattooed Monk on the other with all the tanking abilities (Crab, Chrysanthemum, Ocean, Phoenix, Dragonfly, in that order + large Con score) to take a beating and keep on going.
Dheran 05-13-07, 11:02 PM	Well, he could get superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt for unarmed damage as a monk 9 levels higher, right? Nope. Both let you deal unarmed damage as a monk of # levels higher than your actual monk level, so you get the better effect of the two (the Belt). This is different than something that adds to your effective monk level, which neither of these do.
Krusk 05-13-07, 11:35 PM	I would say improved crit is definatly worth it. You go from auto hit 1/20 times to auto hit 1/10 times. when you are a monk flurrying for 5 attacks a round -6 with snap kick i think?- against opponents with impossibly high AC the Auto hit can allow you to still be effective. *if he is a boxer type and you are looking for a use for your stunning fist uses. Might i suggest the feat in phb2 that cloaks your fists in fire adding 1d6 fire damage to all attacks in the round at the cost of one stunning attempt?
StruckingFuggle 05-13-07, 11:51 PM	The char's a boxer-type; he doesn't use Stuns and other Ki attacks, but rather flat-out beats the crap out of you. His Wis is a 10, in fact. Trips, Grapples, etc...Pure Fighter on one side, going Tattooed Monk on the other with all the tanking abilities (Crab, Chrysanthemum, Ocean, Phoenix, Dragonfly, in that order + large Con score) to take a beating and keep on going. If it weren't for the low wis, I'd say - hey, stunning fist doesn't have to be Ki. I'm not saying you have to or should use Stunning Fist or Freezing the Lifeblood, merely that they don't have to be "ki attacks", they could just be a haymaker, hitting them so hard that they get knocked silly for a bit. :P I would say improved crit is definatly worth it. You go from auto hit 1/20 times to auto hit 1/10 times. No, you don't - a crit threat isn't an automatic hit; though an automatic hit due to rolling a 20 is also (barring some strange weapon that can't crit) a crit threat. They're two unrelated things that both happen when you roll a 20 on your attack roll, not two parts of the same thing.
TheDanishCartoonist 05-14-07, 06:40 AM	Roundabout kick makes improved critical much, much better for a monk, since you gain an extra attack on each critical. It's from Complete Warrior, and makes unarmed crits very powerful. Edit: Possible build for feats included. 1st Level-Power Attack Human-Jotunbrund Monk 1-Improved Grapple Monk 2-Combat Reflexes Fighter 1-Focus:Unarmed Strike Fighter 2-Roundabout Kick 3rd level-Flying Kick Fighter 4-Specialization: unarmed Strike 6th Level-Improved Natural Attack Fighter 6-Close-Quarters Fighting Monk 6 –Improved Trip Fighter 8-Melee Weapon Mastery 9th Level-Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike Fighter 10-Mage Slayer
Nessaj 05-14-07, 09:13 AM	I dunno...That's a 10% chance for a free attack using two feats...Vs just taking Snap Kick and saving the extra feat. Still not convinced it's worth it. Very stylish though. Versatile Unarmed Strike should be in there somewhere for any unarmed char; I took it and it's saved my skin plenty of times (damn monstrous spider webs). :P
Krusk 05-14-07, 09:44 AM	No, you don't - a crit threat isn't an automatic hit; though an automatic hit due to rolling a 20 is also (barring some strange weapon that can't crit) a crit threat. They're two unrelated things that both happen when you roll a 20 on your attack roll, not two parts of the same thing. Intresting to note, im going to have to recheck that. Because we may have been playing wrong.
Peregrine_Wolf 05-14-07, 04:28 PM	I wouldn't go with Inp. Crit. because there are feats out there that would be better depending on how you play. Usually I WOULD take Imp. Crit.....but that's ebcause I like weapons with big crit ranges anyways. With 3.0 rules, if your an elven fighter(Champ of Cor Lareth till Elegant Strike) using an elven thinblade, you can eventually become a one-elf killing machine at a very early level, with a feat or two to spare.....
Vegepygmy 05-14-07, 04:45 PM	Intresting to note, im going to have to recheck that. Because we may have been playing wrong.Ain't no "may have" about it, I'm afraid. Only natural 20's are auto-hits.
Chibi_fro 05-22-07, 01:04 PM	You might want to check out the Weapon Master from Sword and Fist. If you have improved critical on your fists the threat range increases to 17-20 at level 7 of the PrC. You can also make your critical multiplier X3 instead of X2 so many times per day, and when you don't critical you can do max damage so many times per day. also of possible interest is that after you get the increased multiplier you can make a whirlwind attack as a standard action.
neilthrun 05-22-07, 01:20 PM	Improved Crit can be more worthwhile if you get a burst weapon enchantment on your hands.
Frugal 05-22-07, 01:38 PM	You might want to check out the Weapon Master from Sword and Fist. If you have improved critical on your fists the threat range increases to 17-20 at level 7 of the PrC. You can also make your critical multiplier X3 instead of X2 so many times per day, and when you don't critical you can do max damage so many times per day. also of possible interest is that after you get the increased multiplier you can make a whirlwind attack as a standard action. Wasn't Weapon Master replaced with Exotic Weapon Master in 3.5? Messing with crit ranges was pretty much wiped out in 3.5.
Keenath 05-22-07, 03:21 PM	I'm about to commit heresy: Crit boosters are rarely worth the cost. The per-attack damage increase provided by Improved Crit (or keen, or whatnot) depends on your base damage. The higher your base damage, the more worthy the feat is. The lower your base, the less interesting IC is. Generally, the per-hit damage benefit of Improved Critical (averaging the occasional crit across the rest of your attacks) is equal to the crit rate of the weapon times the number of additional damage rolls (which is one less than the crit multiplier), expressed as a percentage of your base damage. Thus, a longsword's damage benefit from IC is the crit rate of the weapon -- 10% -- times one less than its multiplier of 2, which would be 1. Therefore, you get a 10% damage bonus with a longsword. The worthiness of that 10% depends on your character -- specifically, your base damage. If your total average damage isn't up around 20, IC is worse than Weapon Specialization or some similar thing. Now, clearly, weapons with high crit multipliers or wide ranges tend to benefit most from this. I'll just quickly summarize the results here: 20 x2 = 5% 19-20 x2 = 10% 20 x3 = 10% 18-20 x2 = 15% 20 x4 = 15% Multiply that percentage above by your total average damage roll to see if the feat or ability it worth it. For the feat to be worth it, you should be getting at least 2 extra damage per hit (equivalent to Weapon Spec); for the Keen special weapon ability, you should be getting 3.5 (equivalent to an elemental enhancement). For an unarmed strike, which has a 5% damage increase, you'd need to be dealing around 40 damage for Improved Crit to be worth taking. And I'm pretty sure you won't be dealing anything like that; even a 20th level monk would need to be getting something like d20+30. For a more crit-based weapon like a scythe, pick, or falchion, it's much easier to get to that critical limit -- if you have a damage code of 2d4+10, you're already in the zone where Improved Critical is worth having. So, to answer your original question -- it depends, but I doubt you'll be able to get into the proper damage range with just fists. If you had a big bludgeon that you could two-hand for the 50% bonus on strength and power attack, maybe, but I'd tend to stay away from improved crit in favor of adding more direct damage.
risner 05-23-07, 09:18 PM	Wasn't Weapon Master replaced with Exotic Weapon Master in 3.5? Messing with crit ranges was pretty much wiped out in 3.5. It was and is no longer available for Unarmed because you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (unarmed) as a feat to join Exotic Weapon Master. This doesn't exist. I suppose a generous DM could allow the PC to take EWP (Unarmed) and meet the pre-req. I wouldn't allow this.
Fallenangel359 05-24-07, 10:55 AM	exotic weapon proficiency (nail filings)
Xan_Kriegor 05-24-07, 11:03 AM	You might consider Snap Kick instead. You'll get an extra unarmed attack with 1/2 STR bonus anytime you make a melee attack, so it's good for standard action attacks as well as full attacks. What book is that in? I'd really like that!
starfire311 05-24-07, 04:17 PM	Just what I was hoping for; someone to number-crunch for me and give me the breakdown. Math doesn't lie. Except when my class averages come in, that is. No Improved Crit for me then, unless someone can either refute it or tell me why I should take it. Probably gonna grab Hold the Line then so I can clothesline people with Knock-Down when they charge me :cool: Go Fighter-Monks! you are correct math doesnt lie but it can be applied incorretly... I think the value of IC depends on what your damage output is, assuming a 50% chance to hit WS increases your damage output by 1.025HP per attack... and IC increases it by 0.025 times your average damage so the break even point is 41 points of damage on average.. so if you do 42 points or more IC is better, if you do 40 points or less WS is better, 41 points equals a wash, but you would also need to remember that WS will always apply. I will second the idea of taking Superior unarmed strike or snap kick if you have access to ToB, if not I recommend two weapon fighting.
starfire311 05-24-07, 04:22 PM	Wasn't Weapon Master replaced with Exotic Weapon Master in 3.5? Messing with crit ranges was pretty much wiped out in 3.5. no it wasn't replaced by the exotic weapon master, they are 2 completly different classes, and thus since it ahsnt been reprinted it is still usable in 3.5 and for those that cry at the crit stacking of it I just direct you to the psionic weapon master, that is 3.5 legal. Psionic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) BTW psionic weapon master is one fo teh most rediculous PrCs I have seen WotC put out.
strenoth 05-24-07, 09:38 PM	no it wasn't replaced by the exotic weapon master, they are 2 completly different classes, and thus since it ahsnt been reprinted it is still usable in 3.5 and for those that cry at the crit stacking of it I just direct you to the psionic weapon master, that is 3.5 legal. Psionic weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) BTW psionic weapon master is one fo teh most rediculous PrCs I have seen WotC put out. actually, yes, the WM has been replaced by the EWM. It's some where ont he website, there's a list of which classes/PrCs have been covered in some manner in 3.5 that were in 3.0
starfire311 05-25-07, 08:19 AM	actually, yes, the WM has been replaced by the EWM. It's some where ont he website, there's a list of which classes/PrCs have been covered in some manner in 3.5 that were in 3.0 So, how do I convert my old weapon master that specialized in greatsword over to the new one?
risner 05-25-07, 11:58 PM	So, how do I convert my old weapon master that specialized in greatsword over to the new one? Exotic Double Scimitar?
StruckingFuggle 05-26-07, 02:05 AM	So, how do I convert my old weapon master that specialized in greatsword over to the new one? You don't, really, because the classes are nothing at all alike.
HuManBing 05-26-07, 07:14 AM	Intresting to note, im going to have to recheck that. Because we may have been playing wrong. Well, you might just have been using a neat house rule without realizing it. Sure, it might not be canon, but it's not technically "wrong" unless it kills the fun. If your group is enjoying the rules as you interpret them, then you're having fun playing D&D... a point that sometimes gets forgotten around here in the rush to be right.
Krusk 05-26-07, 12:55 PM	Well, you might just have been using a neat house rule without realizing it. Sure, it might not be canon, but it's not technically "wrong" unless it kills the fun. If your group is enjoying the rules as you interpret them, then you're having fun playing D&D... a point that sometimes gets forgotten around here in the rush to be right. Yeah, and I doubt our group will change it, but it is something I should keep in mind when playing with other groups/debating a feat online.
Frugal 05-26-07, 01:44 PM	Yeah, and I doubt our group will change it, but it is something I should keep in mind when playing with other groups/debating a feat online. The thing to be aware of is that if you make any crit an automatic hit (instead of just a natural 20 be an auto-hit) you're making weapons with expanded crit ranges way more powerful. Yes, you'd still need to confirm the crit (and I certainly hope you're playing it that you do need to hit with that 2nd hit and not just get within the crit range) but consider that if you're fighting something you'd normally only hit on a natural 20, having a 15-20 crit range means you now hit 30% of the time instead of 5% of the time, that's a huge improvement, not to mention all the increased odds of actually critting due to threatening more often.
starfire311 05-26-07, 09:52 PM	You don't, really, because the classes are nothing at all alike. that was my point, it is like if the removed lore master, and said that the archmage is the new lore master,
Krusk 05-27-07, 11:23 AM	The thing to be aware of is that if you make any crit an automatic hit (instead of just a natural 20 be an auto-hit) you're making weapons with expanded crit ranges way more powerful. Yes, you'd still need to confirm the crit (and I certainly hope you're playing it that you do need to hit with that 2nd hit and not just get within the crit range) but consider that if you're fighting something you'd normally only hit on a natural 20, having a 15-20 crit range means you now hit 30% of the time instead of 5% of the time, that's a huge improvement, not to mention all the increased odds of actually critting due to threatening more often. Personally, I've always thought something was up with it. But never felt like checking up on it, just not that important. In our group the only people who use large crit ranges, are weapon finesse rogues, who generally don't deal loads of damage. And of course, we still confirm crits. I was considering that hitting 30% of the time over 5 is a huge boost, thats actually why I suggested he take the feat. 10% chance to hit beats 5%.
Frugal 05-27-07, 01:13 PM	Personally, I've always thought something was up with it. But never felt like checking up on it, just not that important. In our group the only people who use large crit ranges, are weapon finesse rogues, who generally don't deal loads of damage. And of course, we still confirm crits. I was considering that hitting 30% of the time over 5 is a huge boost, thats actually why I suggested he take the feat. 10% chance to hit beats 5%. Yep, but makes any situation where sneak attack qualifies particularly deadly since getting that boost to automatically hit means a lot more damage.
bfiggins 11-08-07, 01:44 PM	Ain't no "may have" about it, I'm afraid. Only natural 20's are auto-hits. Of course, if you're unable to hit your enemy on a 19, maybe it's time to retreat?
Jaxgaret 11-08-07, 06:10 PM	Of course, if you're unable to hit your enemy on a 19, maybe it's time to retreat? Heck no, that means it's time to Power Attack for full! :)