Improved Disarm & Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Disarm & Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Selfless_Id
04-01-07, 01:57 AM I'm hoping next week's article covers this.

In this situation assume the Improved Disarm feat has been obtained.

The Disarm combat option states that if you engage the atempt while using a light weapon (ie unarmed attack) you take a -4 to your roll. But to me it seems a tad strange that a monk would be privy to such a penalty. Granted the outcome of a successful disarm is STRONGLY in the favour of the monk. It just seems strange that something that is considered a natural weapon be penalized during such an action. I know that Imp Disarm effectively negates the penalty but its still a negative effect due to the fact that any other non-light weapon would get a +4 relative to any light weapon. Thoughts? References?
Centauri
04-01-07, 02:04 AM It just seems strange that something that is considered a natural weapon be penalized during such an action. Maybe, but if we give unarmed strikes and natural weapons some kind of a bonus, that effectively penalizes weapon users for no really good reason. Aren't they trained to keep hold of their weapons?

Thoughts? References? That's the way it is. The monk can always take Weapon Focus(unarmed strike) to improve his attack roll for the disarm attempt.
Selfless_Id
04-01-07, 02:07 AM I just didn't know if the fact that they can be considered natural weapons had some say in this particular situation.
SALDAR
04-01-07, 11:30 AM I just didn't know if the fact that they can be considered natural weapons had some say in this particular situation.

Not actually since natural weapons are also light weapons.
MightyPotamus
04-01-07, 01:16 PM Let's look at this logically, The wepon you are using is your hands.

Much like a ranseur, your hands posess finger-like protrusions (for the sake of argument we'll call them "fingers") that could be used to entangle the opponent's wepon.
Much like a flail, your hands are capable wrapping around an oppenents weapon.
These weapons give a +2 bonus to disarm attempts for being well suited to the task, a judicious DM could easily justify letting this also apply for the use of hands at his table.

Your monk has (we hope) two hands availiable to make this disarm attempt (unless one hand is busy scratching behind a kitten's ears or something). A judicious DM could easily justify letting a monk use two hands in the disarm attempt.

This cooks down to -4: light +4: two-handed +2: favorable design for an overall bonus of *Drummroll* +2 ( + an additional 4 if you have Improved Disarm)
The_Shaman
04-01-07, 01:24 PM Or I guess you could use a staff.
Selfless_Id
04-01-07, 03:06 PM Alright, simular to a Jitte you're saying (+2 Disarm and +2 if you fail). Can we take a moment to look at the Sai (which to me seems more like a hand than a Jitte). The Sai gets a +4 to Disarm (no bonus to failure roll) effectively offsetting the penalty for it being light.
Shadowhowler
04-01-07, 05:20 PM I like Monks as much as the next guy, but I would NOT negate the light weapon penalty for using your hands, and I certainly would not grante them a bounes unarmed.

Yanking a sword out of someone hands barehanded should be tricky.
Angatyr
04-01-07, 07:33 PM Even though a monk is not considered unarmed , the penalty applies, just as it would with any light weapon, like a dagger or sai/jitte (which is a disarming weapon).

I think the penalty applies due to the size of the weapon. If you hooked their weapon with something large like a polearm (ranseur) or great axe, then a fast yank could easily remove their weapon, but with something small, you don't have as much leverage. Arguably, larger weapons should also have a bonus.
They could have instituted a +4/-4 system based on relative weapon size, but it is probably too complex.
The opposed strength check takes into account the amount of force that you can put into the attempt, but the weapon gives you leverage, and the bigger the better.
Selfless_Id
04-01-07, 10:06 PM I want to point out that I'm sort of the unofficial rule DM of our group -- not to be confused with rule *****. While I am a PC our DM is a novice so I help him with the systems and rules which he has little knowledge of. We came accross this situation last session and it seemed strange to us and thats why I'm here.

Imp Disarm gives you a +4 and a removal of the Attack of Opportunity that normally happens when you make a Disarm attempt. Now a Jitte, which is a light weapon, gets a +2 on Disarm attempts and +2 on the subsequent Disarm attempt against the character if the initial action fails. The Sai gives the character a +4 to Disarm and is also considered a light weapon. Both still get the -4 on attempts due to being light.

Now I agree that bare handed characters should not be able to disregard the penalty for using a light weapon but a Monk in particular is trained specifically to use his body as a viable weapon that is on par with normal weaponry (ie improved dmg die). As a Monk the character is constantly putting his own SKIN (with little to no material plating as protection) at arms against flails, spears, swords, axes, projectiles, animal jaws, and vorpal weapons (to name a few) -- why is it that a Monk can fight all those on equal ground and yet still be penalized for trying to disarm? I know that as a light weapon a Monk's unarmed attack gets the -4. What I'm trying to argue is that it is a weapon similar to a Jitte or Sai and is physically not as linear as those (hands can adapt in many more ways) but is granted no bonus to Disarming at all besides the fact that the Monk would always have the opponent's weapon after a successful attack.
Centauri
04-02-07, 12:01 AM While I am a PC our DM is a novice so I help him with the systems and rules which he has little knowledge of. Very commendable. Others might take advantage of a novice DM to bend the rules a bit.

why is it that a Monk can fight all those on equal ground and yet still be penalized for trying to disarm? It's impossible to rationalize this perfectly - other than to say "them's the rules" - because we're not dealing with real things here. At best, we're dealing with some things that are named after real things and are crude models of them and with other things that are utterly fantastic. There are no laws of physics being followed here, it's just a game.

We could come up with reasons for you, and even attempt to base them in reality, but none of them would make you happy. Best to accept that the rules are the way they are (assuming they're not in error to the point of disrupting the game) and come up with explanations that convince you. Though, really, the game works perfectly well without any attempts at consistent explanations for its weirdness.
Captain_Kobold
04-02-07, 12:32 AM Personally, I think the rules work fine as they are. The special monk training in disarming opponents if the monk's style emphasizes it is represented by taking the Improved disarm feat. Why would a monk without it have any special expertise in disarming people, beyond the standard monk capabilities in melee?
I can vagely recall a feat that allowed you to be counted as one size larger when performing disarm attempts. Am I hallucinating it?

Natural weapons are given no special bonus to disarming. You might be able to use them to grab a weapon, but that involves getting hold of a part of it that won't hurt you when it hits you. Monks do get a better awareness of combat and avoiding blows, but that won't stop them getting their fingers hacked off like anyone else if they misjudge.

Sai or staffs are good weapons to use for disarming if that is what you want to concentrate on.
Angatyr
04-02-07, 04:02 AM Sai and Jitte have different rules???? Seriously stupid, they are so close to the same thing, and yet they have 2 sets of rules, when a club and a tonfa (think nightstick) are considered the same?!
Selfless_Id
04-02-07, 12:15 PM We were perplexed about this at the time because we thought a Monk would overcome the penalty since he/she is constantly fighting against other weapons with his/her body. But...

I have been thinking about it while we've been discussing this and things that previously seemed hardly a bonus to a monk who disarms are now rather prevaliant. A Monk disarming will always obtain the target's weapon where as someone with a sword & shield or great sword would not. Secondly a Monk also has the benefit of trying make a number of disarm attempts in a round greater than other classes via flurry of blows (disarm, trip, attack while the target is down). Not to mention, outside of a disarm, a Monk is virtually always a threat whereas a fighter or barbarian need a weapon. Its all just a balancing act for the rules.

I believe that a Jitte is just a less expensive weapon by half versus a Sai (5sp and 1gp respectively). Look at the Jitte as a weapon someone can use if the don't have Improved Disarm (think Two-Weapon Fighting off hand weapon instead of specific Disarm tool -- the bonuses are there if you need them) because it gives a bonus to the subsequent Disarm on YOU if the attempt fails. The Sai works better in the hands of one who already has Improved Disarm because the target does not get the Disarm attempt due to the effects of this feat -- more suited for someone who actively looks to disarm the target. They both work well in their respective situations.

Thanks for providing an opposing opinion to help me think objectively.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selfless_Id 04-01-07, 01:57 AM	I'm hoping next week's article covers this. In this situation assume the Improved Disarm feat has been obtained. The Disarm combat option states that if you engage the atempt while using a light weapon (ie unarmed attack) you take a -4 to your roll. But to me it seems a tad strange that a monk would be privy to such a penalty. Granted the outcome of a successful disarm is STRONGLY in the favour of the monk. It just seems strange that something that is considered a natural weapon be penalized during such an action. I know that Imp Disarm effectively negates the penalty but its still a negative effect due to the fact that any other non-light weapon would get a +4 relative to any light weapon. Thoughts? References?
Centauri 04-01-07, 02:04 AM	It just seems strange that something that is considered a natural weapon be penalized during such an action. Maybe, but if we give unarmed strikes and natural weapons some kind of a bonus, that effectively penalizes weapon users for no really good reason. Aren't they trained to keep hold of their weapons? Thoughts? References? That's the way it is. The monk can always take Weapon Focus(unarmed strike) to improve his attack roll for the disarm attempt.
Selfless_Id 04-01-07, 02:07 AM	I just didn't know if the fact that they can be considered natural weapons had some say in this particular situation.
SALDAR 04-01-07, 11:30 AM	I just didn't know if the fact that they can be considered natural weapons had some say in this particular situation. Not actually since natural weapons are also light weapons.
MightyPotamus 04-01-07, 01:16 PM	Let's look at this logically, The wepon you are using is your hands. Much like a ranseur, your hands posess finger-like protrusions (for the sake of argument we'll call them "fingers") that could be used to entangle the opponent's wepon. Much like a flail, your hands are capable wrapping around an oppenents weapon. These weapons give a +2 bonus to disarm attempts for being well suited to the task, a judicious DM could easily justify letting this also apply for the use of hands at his table. Your monk has (we hope) two hands availiable to make this disarm attempt (unless one hand is busy scratching behind a kitten's ears or something). A judicious DM could easily justify letting a monk use two hands in the disarm attempt. This cooks down to -4: light +4: two-handed +2: favorable design for an overall bonus of Drummroll +2 ( + an additional 4 if you have Improved Disarm)
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 01:24 PM	Or I guess you could use a staff.
Selfless_Id 04-01-07, 03:06 PM	Alright, simular to a Jitte you're saying (+2 Disarm and +2 if you fail). Can we take a moment to look at the Sai (which to me seems more like a hand than a Jitte). The Sai gets a +4 to Disarm (no bonus to failure roll) effectively offsetting the penalty for it being light.
Shadowhowler 04-01-07, 05:20 PM	I like Monks as much as the next guy, but I would NOT negate the light weapon penalty for using your hands, and I certainly would not grante them a bounes unarmed. Yanking a sword out of someone hands barehanded should be tricky.
Angatyr 04-01-07, 07:33 PM	Even though a monk is not considered unarmed , the penalty applies, just as it would with any light weapon, like a dagger or sai/jitte (which is a disarming weapon). I think the penalty applies due to the size of the weapon. If you hooked their weapon with something large like a polearm (ranseur) or great axe, then a fast yank could easily remove their weapon, but with something small, you don't have as much leverage. Arguably, larger weapons should also have a bonus. They could have instituted a +4/-4 system based on relative weapon size, but it is probably too complex. The opposed strength check takes into account the amount of force that you can put into the attempt, but the weapon gives you leverage, and the bigger the better.
Selfless_Id 04-01-07, 10:06 PM	I want to point out that I'm sort of the unofficial rule DM of our group -- not to be confused with rule *****. While I am a PC our DM is a novice so I help him with the systems and rules which he has little knowledge of. We came accross this situation last session and it seemed strange to us and thats why I'm here. Imp Disarm gives you a +4 and a removal of the Attack of Opportunity that normally happens when you make a Disarm attempt. Now a Jitte, which is a light weapon, gets a +2 on Disarm attempts and +2 on the subsequent Disarm attempt against the character if the initial action fails. The Sai gives the character a +4 to Disarm and is also considered a light weapon. Both still get the -4 on attempts due to being light. Now I agree that bare handed characters should not be able to disregard the penalty for using a light weapon but a Monk in particular is trained specifically to use his body as a viable weapon that is on par with normal weaponry (ie improved dmg die). As a Monk the character is constantly putting his own SKIN (with little to no material plating as protection) at arms against flails, spears, swords, axes, projectiles, animal jaws, and vorpal weapons (to name a few) -- why is it that a Monk can fight all those on equal ground and yet still be penalized for trying to disarm? I know that as a light weapon a Monk's unarmed attack gets the -4. What I'm trying to argue is that it is a weapon similar to a Jitte or Sai and is physically not as linear as those (hands can adapt in many more ways) but is granted no bonus to Disarming at all besides the fact that the Monk would always have the opponent's weapon after a successful attack.
Centauri 04-02-07, 12:01 AM	While I am a PC our DM is a novice so I help him with the systems and rules which he has little knowledge of. Very commendable. Others might take advantage of a novice DM to bend the rules a bit. why is it that a Monk can fight all those on equal ground and yet still be penalized for trying to disarm? It's impossible to rationalize this perfectly - other than to say "them's the rules" - because we're not dealing with real things here. At best, we're dealing with some things that are named after real things and are crude models of them and with other things that are utterly fantastic. There are no laws of physics being followed here, it's just a game. We could come up with reasons for you, and even attempt to base them in reality, but none of them would make you happy. Best to accept that the rules are the way they are (assuming they're not in error to the point of disrupting the game) and come up with explanations that convince you. Though, really, the game works perfectly well without any attempts at consistent explanations for its weirdness.
Captain_Kobold 04-02-07, 12:32 AM	Personally, I think the rules work fine as they are. The special monk training in disarming opponents if the monk's style emphasizes it is represented by taking the Improved disarm feat. Why would a monk without it have any special expertise in disarming people, beyond the standard monk capabilities in melee? I can vagely recall a feat that allowed you to be counted as one size larger when performing disarm attempts. Am I hallucinating it? Natural weapons are given no special bonus to disarming. You might be able to use them to grab a weapon, but that involves getting hold of a part of it that won't hurt you when it hits you. Monks do get a better awareness of combat and avoiding blows, but that won't stop them getting their fingers hacked off like anyone else if they misjudge. Sai or staffs are good weapons to use for disarming if that is what you want to concentrate on.
Angatyr 04-02-07, 04:02 AM	Sai and Jitte have different rules???? Seriously stupid, they are so close to the same thing, and yet they have 2 sets of rules, when a club and a tonfa (think nightstick) are considered the same?!
Selfless_Id 04-02-07, 12:15 PM	We were perplexed about this at the time because we thought a Monk would overcome the penalty since he/she is constantly fighting against other weapons with his/her body. But... I have been thinking about it while we've been discussing this and things that previously seemed hardly a bonus to a monk who disarms are now rather prevaliant. A Monk disarming will always obtain the target's weapon where as someone with a sword & shield or great sword would not. Secondly a Monk also has the benefit of trying make a number of disarm attempts in a round greater than other classes via flurry of blows (disarm, trip, attack while the target is down). Not to mention, outside of a disarm, a Monk is virtually always a threat whereas a fighter or barbarian need a weapon. Its all just a balancing act for the rules. I believe that a Jitte is just a less expensive weapon by half versus a Sai (5sp and 1gp respectively). Look at the Jitte as a weapon someone can use if the don't have Improved Disarm (think Two-Weapon Fighting off hand weapon instead of specific Disarm tool -- the bonuses are there if you need them) because it gives a bonus to the subsequent Disarm on YOU if the attempt fails. The Sai works better in the hands of one who already has Improved Disarm because the target does not get the Disarm attempt due to the effects of this feat -- more suited for someone who actively looks to disarm the target. They both work well in their respective situations. Thanks for providing an opposing opinion to help me think objectively.