Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HavenDan 08-27-07, 10:44 PM	Improved Iniative is a really really good feat. Does everyone usually take this on their characters or is it overrated? Discuss!
JellyPooga 08-27-07, 10:48 PM	Though it is a very good feat, it's one of those that I'll only take if I have a feat spare that I don't know what else to 'spend' it on. Reason being is that though a high initiative is useful, the use of a different feat is often more useful. Most often I'll take Imp. Init. with Scout builds as one of the bonus feats they get.
Fallenangel359 08-28-07, 12:58 AM	my current character has improved initiative, cha to initiative, aggressive +2 initiative -1ac, gifted general +2 initiative +1fortsave, plus bracers of blinding strike grand total initiative mod of 16 it gets rediculous how useful that can be
claypigeons 08-28-07, 01:16 AM	Going first is awesome. It can often save your life. That means Improved Initiative is quite handy. However, it's useful once per battle. Many other feats are useful more often, which makes them more useful in general. I do take Improved Initiative with many of my characters. Fallenangel359- Have you seen the feat 'Quick Reconnoiter' from Complete Adventurer? Will give you a further +2 to your initiative... But it doesn't look like you need it. :P
ibayboy 08-28-07, 03:27 AM	My warmage has had it since 3rd lvl. I don't regret it at all, his init mod is now +11, and he usually goes first. This is great for readying to interupt baddies. We have been recently fighting demons with lots of Spell-Likes, and no Concentration ranks, so much fun.:D
tarkin 08-28-07, 10:04 AM	Improved Initiative tends to be a very key feat for: 1. Rogues or other characters with sneak attackt (or similar things that only work when flat footed). 2. High level mages with good save or die spells. You need to do them first or you fail the other guy's save/die spell. -------------- I find that for most other characters it is a good feat, but not the best feat available for them to take. For example, for a fighter with Spiked chain, I would generally much rather take Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Improved Trip, improved Disarm, or whirlwind instead of measily Improved Initiative.
Shadowfax7 08-28-07, 11:09 AM	my current character has improved initiative, cha to initiative, aggressive +2 initiative -1ac, gifted general +2 initiative +1fortsave, plus bracers of blinding strikeWhere are "cha to initiative" and "gifted general" from ??
1 ton ghost 08-28-07, 11:32 AM	usually, like in life, if you strike first, you have the advantage. someone said it's only good 1/battle. not so, you can dip out via Hide and let tactical combat end (init is over) and prep another ambush for a surprise rnd, attack, then roll init, probably go first again. yes, very good for rogues, but overall, it's good for anyone really offensively but in terms of defense, it's vital as well.
RobbyPants 08-28-07, 03:58 PM	Where are "cha to initiative" and "gifted general" from ?? Check out this X stat to Y bonus thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) (which is made of awesome and win). As near as I can find, the only two things that give you Cha to initiative is Iajutsu Master (Oriental Adventures) and a Swiftblade class feature (online content). There might be more though...
Zaistars 08-28-07, 04:02 PM	It's an even handier feat in the games I play with my brother. That freak has you roll init each round. Slows things way down but makes feats like imp init more important.
RobbyPants 08-28-07, 04:11 PM	It's an even handier feat in the games I play with my brother. That freak has you roll init each round. Slows things way down but makes feats like imp init more important. Well, as annoying as that rule is, you're right. The per-round impact of Improved Initiatve greatly increases if you have to roll every round. :rolleyes:
Mousse 08-28-07, 04:35 PM	Its a pretty solid feat, yeah. At the same time, the general effect isn't usually enough to justify it unless you have a spare feat.
key 08-28-07, 04:49 PM	It's one of the first normal feats I take.
StruckingFuggle 08-28-07, 05:20 PM	It also depends on level, as Tarkin mentioned (and it also depends on how 'well' the participants are mechanically built) But it bears repeating. At near-epic and epic levels, for example, you can a confrontation in one round, and therefore Initiative = potentially the sole determinant of who delivers a crippling or even fatal blow to who, first.
The_Levitator 08-28-07, 05:44 PM	Well, as annoying as that rule is, you're right. The per-round impact of Improved Initiatve greatly increases if you have to roll every round. :rolleyes: Why is it annoying? It's a variant found right in the DMG, isn't it? We roll initiative every round because we don't have to worry about it slowing anything down. I use the autoroll feature built into DM Genie, so re-rolling initiative takes almost a full second. My players prefer to roll initiative every round, especially if they have the improved initiative feat. What good is having the feat if you roll a 1 on the first round and are stuck going last for the entire fight? Honestly, why do some people get so bent out of shape with variants and houserules, when the very game they are playing was built upon them and the flexibility of a system that can utilize them? :rolleyes: It sounds like 4E is going to be much less customizable than 3.5, so that should make some people very happy. :rolleyes: Is it an imperative here that if you disagree with a certain play style, that you are required to publicly insult those who enjoy that play style? :rolleyes: BOT: Our group likes the improved initiative feat and also likes finding other ways to improve their pecking order in an encounter. I wouldn't say that everyone takes it though. I think 2 players in my current main group of 6 have it.
StruckingFuggle 08-28-07, 08:11 PM	My players prefer to roll initiative every round, especially if they have the improved initiative feat. What good is having the feat if you roll a 1 on the first round and are stuck going last for the entire fight? I've found this normalizes better rolling initiative on a d10 or d12, rather than a d20. It sounds like 4E is going to be much less customizable than 3.5, so that should make some people very happy. :rolleyes: Oi... that sucks, if true. :( Where are you hearing that?
The_Levitator 08-28-07, 09:56 PM	I've found this normalizes better rolling initiative on a d10 or d12, rather than a d20. That sounds like a really interesting idea! I think we might just give that a whirl! :D Oi... that sucks, if true. :( Where are you hearing that? There were a few threads on Enworld right around the time of the announcement that seemed to be hinting that 4E was going to be streamlined. Most of what I read sounds like the streamlining is on the DM's side to reduce preparation time. I think there might have even been a thread or 2 here that was suggesting that 4E is going to be lighter rules-wise than 3.5. Personally, I think it might be kinda fun to experiment with a lighter version of D&D than 3.5. I really hope that 4E doesn't reduce the ability to houserule, because I really believe that houseruling is a part of roleplaying that keeps it evolving and improving. Since it's so far away anyway, I'm sure a majority of the rumors are conjecture. Even though I plan to stick with 3.5 until DM Genie or something as good comes out to support 4E. But I will definitely be picking up the books out of curiousity. :)
Dog_O_War 08-28-07, 11:32 PM	All feats are good (except martial weapon proficiency when you don't get it for free) given their area of expertise, but improved initiative is a very special one. Having the ability to go first gives you the ulimate edge in a combat situation, simply because you can then choose when you go (or when to run away - and make it). I made a character once in 3.0 that rivaled iajuitsu masters with his raw initiative score (which was good since I didn't have the skill - yet). Improved initiative is that kind of feat you never regret taking, kinda like improved toughness.
Salla 08-28-07, 11:37 PM	I think it's pretty overrated. I only take it if I'm playing a character where catching someone flatfooted is important (Rogue or Ninja), or a character who has to apply buffs to get his AC up to a reasonable level (wizard or sorcerer in a game too low a level to get a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt of Twilight).
RobbyPants 08-29-07, 10:06 AM	Why is it annoying? It's a variant found right in the DMG, isn't it? We roll initiative every round because we don't have to worry about it slowing anything down. I use the autoroll feature built into DM Genie, so re-rolling initiative takes almost a full second. Let me clarify: I say it's annoying because my group rolls it with dice. You're right in that if you have a program do it, it takes out a lot of the work. So for your group, it wouldn't be nearly the same hassel as my group. In the game I run, I have 5 players, and there may or may not be NPCs tagging along. In the last adventure I ran Sunday, they were escorting two clerics to help with a plague. So when combat starts, if I roll all the monsters together, that's 8 numbers I have to get and put in order. It would be a pain for me in my game do to it that way. ;) My players prefer to roll initiative every round, especially if they have the improved initiative feat. What good is having the feat if you roll a 1 on the first round and are stuck going last for the entire fight? That variant certainly does make Improved Initiative more powerful. The only reason I never liked it is because each combat round is spread through out six seconds. Initiative decides when you go in that time, and from then on, everyone acts every six seconds. If you roll every round, picture this extreme example: you roll a 1 on round one and go quite late, and then roll a 20 on round two and go early. So, effectively you get to take two actions back to back. Likewise, if you roll a 20 followed by a 1, you end up waiting something like 11 seconds (roughly) between your actions. So for me, it just doesn't make as much sense. Typically, any variant you use that increases randomness in an encounter favors the underdog (usually the monsters). This might not be a bad thing, if everyone in the group is cool with it. It sounds like your group is. Honestly, why do some people get so bent out of shape with variants and houserules, when the very game they are playing was built upon them and the flexibility of a system that can utilize them? :rolleyes: I use all sorts of houserules. I have nothing against using houserules. I was merely speaking from my perspective on that particular houserule. It sounds like 4E is going to be much less customizable than 3.5, so that should make some people very happy. :rolleyes: Until all the splatbooks come out :P Is it an imperative here that if you disagree with a certain play style, that you are required to publicly insult those who enjoy that play style? :rolleyes: Insult? When did I insult anyone or their playstyle? Are you refering to the :rolleyes: emoticon? Maybe I hit a hot spot with you and offended you. If so, I appoligize, but I in no way felt that I came off as insulting. I guess that's the problem with forums and chat: no tone of voice ;)
The_Levitator 08-29-07, 11:17 AM	Let me clarify: I say it's annoying because my group rolls it with dice. You're right in that if you have a program do it, it takes out a lot of the work. So for your group, it wouldn't be nearly the same hassel as my group. In the game I run, I have 5 players, and there may or may not be NPCs tagging along. In the last adventure I ran Sunday, they were escorting two clerics to help with a plague. So when combat starts, if I roll all the monsters together, that's 8 numbers I have to get and put in order. It would be a pain for me in my game do to it that way. ;) That variant certainly does make Improved Initiative more powerful. The only reason I never liked it is because each combat round is spread through out six seconds. Initiative decides when you go in that time, and from then on, everyone acts every six seconds. If you roll every round, picture this extreme example: you roll a 1 on round one and go quite late, and then roll a 20 on round two and go early. So, effectively you get to take two actions back to back. Likewise, if you roll a 20 followed by a 1, you end up waiting something like 11 seconds (roughly) between your actions. So for me, it just doesn't make as much sense. Typically, any variant you use that increases randomness in an encounter favors the underdog (usually the monsters). This might not be a bad thing, if everyone in the group is cool with it. It sounds like your group is. I use all sorts of houserules. I have nothing against using houserules. I was merely speaking from my perspective on that particular houserule. Until all the splatbooks come out :P Insult? When did I insult anyone or their playstyle? Are you refering to the :rolleyes: emoticon? Maybe I hit a hot spot with you and offended you. If so, I appoligize, but I in no way felt that I came off as insulting. I guess that's the problem with forums and chat: no tone of voice ;) Yeah, sorry about that RobbyPants. I had just come off another thread where DM's like me were being getting beat up for trying to come up with ways to make the game more fun for our players, and I think I overreacted to your post. If I had paid more attention to who had actually posted, I probably wouldn't have been so defensive. I've read a lot of your posts here and know that you are a positive contributor here and not a troll or negative poster. I do agree with your viewpoint, and I can safely say that if we didn't use DM Genie, there's no way we would be rolling initiative every round. :eek: I've got 6 players in my current group, and I could see all of that extra rolling and figuring to be very time consuming. I also agree that with static initiative, it's not supposed to matter as much who goes when after the first round. But, if you are at the bottom of the totem pole, you are at the bottom, so you are always reacting to someone else's actions. You will still always be one action behind everyone else until you go. I have a couple players who base their strategy on reacting quickly, and they always felt hosed when they would roll low and be stuck with that result for the entire fight. I changed the way we do initiative to make the game more fun for my players. It's also more fun for me, because it's just one more thing in the game that allows me to make more creative descriptions. Again, I'm sorry I carried my frustration from another thread over to this one. :blush:
RobbyPants 08-29-07, 12:37 PM	Yeah, sorry about that RobbyPants. I had just come off another thread where DM's like me were being getting beat up for trying to come up with ways to make the game more fun for our players, and I think I overreacted to your post. If I had paid more attention to who had actually posted, I probably wouldn't have been so defensive. I've read a lot of your posts here and know that you are a positive contributor here and not a troll or negative poster. No problem :D After reading your response, I figured I should probably have clarified my little one-line response a bit better. I do agree with your viewpoint, and I can safely say that if we didn't use DM Genie, there's no way we would be rolling initiative every round. :eek: I've got 6 players in my current group, and I could see all of that extra rolling and figuring to be very time consuming. I just checked out the DM Genie homepage. I've seen you reference it in another thread about hiding HP from the players. You said you had little auras around each player with colors to represent their rough health (split into quarters, IIRC). Anyway, it seems like it could be a good way to streamline a lot of complex or annoying bookkeeping. I've always thought up little houserules that I thought would be more cool if they didn't require so much paperwork ;) @OP: Sorry if I derailed your thread too much ;)
Salla 08-29-07, 12:40 PM	You will still always be one action behind everyone else until you go. I have a couple players who base their strategy on reacting quickly, and they always felt hosed when they would roll low and be stuck with that result for the entire fight. They do realize they can delay their action and go on 20+DEX mod (+other mods) in the next round, right?
The_Levitator 08-29-07, 01:07 PM	They do realize they can delay their action and go on 20+DEX mod (+other mods) in the next round, right? Yeah, that's a good point. It seems like in the heat of battle though, my players rarely delay actions. I think that to them, once behind, always behind maybe. The casters will often delay to see what the front liners can do first, but they don't delay the whole round. One quick question about that though. If they delay the entire round to get the 20+DEX mod (+other mods) for the next round, wouldn't they still be behind an action in comparison to the other combatants?
mvincent 08-29-07, 01:17 PM	you're right. The per-round impact of Improved Initiatve greatly increases if you have to roll every roundTo clarify: how is rolling high every round better than rolling high on the first round (and keeping it)? They seem functionally about the same.
Spikes01k 08-29-07, 01:22 PM	I see this as an almost necessary feat for Rogues and Ninjas. So yeah it has its purposes.
The_Levitator 08-29-07, 01:23 PM	No problem :D After reading your response, I figured I should probably have clarified my little one-line response a bit better. I just checked out the DM Genie homepage. I've seen you reference it in another thread about hiding HP from the players. You said you had little auras around each player with colors to represent their rough health (split into quarters, IIRC). Anyway, it seems like it could be a good way to streamline a lot of complex or annoying bookkeeping. I've always thought up little houserules that I thought would be more cool if they didn't require so much paperwork ;) @OP: Sorry if I derailed your thread too much ;) Hey now, this isn't my thread! :D But yes, we use a relative health indication system (big fancy name for colored halos). In addition, the colored halos correspond to a Battle Fatigue system that I created in response to my players wanting a grittier combat, where wounds and dodging and running around has deteriorating effects during combat. Without trying to derail this thread further, here's a quick breakdown of that system. I think that with this system, having initiative every round plays an even bigger role than Core. 100% of total HP = Green = Healthy 75% of total HP = Yellow = Light Battle Fatigue (-1 STR, -1 DEX) 50% of total HP = Orange = Moderate Battle Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX) 25% of total HP = Red = Heavy Battle Fatigue (-4 STR, -4 DEX) And Black = dead, dying, unconscious, sleeping, faking, or otherwise lying on the ground. Add to that the fact that we also use the Clobbered Variant, and initiative takes on an even bigger role in combat. Nothing has reduced bookkeeping more than using DM Genie. And even though we use it to automate most of our game, it's important for people to know that it also has a manual mode so that players and the DM can still roll dice. DM Genie is an amazing product that I can't speak highly enough of, and this really isn't the thread for promoting it. Unless, a person were wanting a solution to having initiative every round and wanted an easier and much faster way of doing it. Even if only the DM uses the autoroll feature for monsters/NPC's, it will cut combat time in half. I admit that I don't have a group of powergamers/munchkins/min-maxers, so they are more interested in how combat feels more than how it works. I came up with a word that I feel describes my DM style: cinepic, which is cinematic and epic. I'm a professional entertainer IRL and my job centers around telling stories. So of course, that's the draw to DM'ing for me. My goal is to tell the best story possible and make my players the biggest heroes imaginable. This is why I've added so many variants and houserules, they just help me describe things better and give my players the kind of experience they want. Even rolling initiative every round gives me more information with which to create creative descriptions of the battle. Despite the few quirks of initiative every round (like spell effects), the excitement and feeling of chaos it brings to the battle is a welcome addition in our game. And just remember that I would be playing Core if I didn't have DM Genie! ;)
The_Levitator 08-29-07, 01:33 PM	To clarify: how is rolling high every round better than rolling high on the first round (and keeping it)? They seem functionally about the same. Here's my take, FWIW. In a static initiative game, you get one chance to act first. If you roll poorly, your lightning reflexes and feats to boost your initiative are minimized. In a game where you roll initiative every round, you have a chance to get back on top. You may roll poorly on the first round, but if you have a high initiative modifier, odds are that you will do much better on future rounds. With Core, you only get one chance to act first. With initiative every round, you get a chance every round to act first. I don't really think one way is better than the other. I think they both just have a different feel to combat. We've played both ways, and my group prefers rolling initiative every round. For them, it feels more chaotic and fluid. And like I mentioned in another post, if I wasn't using DM Genie, I doubt we would be rolling initiative every round with a 6 player group.
Laerekh_Jaelre 08-29-07, 01:34 PM	As a DM, I'm guilty of giving many of my badguy NPCs Improved Initiative. The reason is it makes my life easier when trying to remember all the feats and abilities in play. I simply add +4 to their initiative stat and forget about that feat. It lets me focus on the character's other feats & abilities to make sure I'm playing the NPCs to the best of their abilities.
Nom 08-29-07, 05:50 PM	Here's my take, FWIW. In a static initiative game, you get one chance to act first. If you roll poorly, your lightning reflexes and feats to boost your initiative are minimized. In a game where you roll initiative every round, you have a chance to get back on top. You may roll poorly on the first round, but if you have a high initiative modifier, odds are that you will do much better on future rounds. With Core, you only get one chance to act first. With initiative every round, you get a chance every round to act first.The problem with this idea is that it fundamentally misses the point of D&D rounds. D&D 3rd rounds work like monopoly. You roll to see who goes first (and second, and ...) and then everyone just takes turns. Once you've determined the order (by rolling initiative), the concept of the "start" and the "end" of the round (or "first" and "last") are discarded: everyone just takes turns. Turning rounds into discrete packages of time and re-randomising order every round has several consequences. Firstly, it completely messes up the D&D 3rd ed duration mechanics. Most effects are defined as lasting from your turn to your next turn. This works fine if turns are all the same length, but become really wacky if you reorder turns every round. You also get weird tactical effects where it can be beneficial to lose initiative in some rounds in order to get a "double-turn".
StruckingFuggle 08-29-07, 06:04 PM	Firstly, it completely messes up the D&D 3rd ed duration mechanics. Most effects are defined as lasting from your turn to your next turn. This works fine if turns are all the same length, but become really wacky if you reorder turns every round. I would suggest to deal with this that you set "round" durations to happen on the same initiative count both turns, regardless of if that's the initiative "tick" that the individual acts on in the next "turn". I'm sure it has 'sploits and wonkiness to IT, too, but I think it'd work better than defining roundal duration by when the causer acts.
The_Levitator 08-29-07, 06:16 PM	The problem with this idea is that it fundamentally misses the point of D&D rounds. D&D 3rd rounds work like monopoly. You roll to see who goes first (and second, and ...) and then everyone just takes turns. Once you've determined the order (by rolling initiative), the concept of the "start" and the "end" of the round (or "first" and "last") are discarded: everyone just takes turns. Turning rounds into discrete packages of time and re-randomising order every round has several consequences. Firstly, it completely messes up the D&D 3rd ed duration mechanics. Most effects are defined as lasting from your turn to your next turn. This works fine if turns are all the same length, but become really wacky if you reorder turns every round. You also get weird tactical effects where it can be beneficial to lose initiative in some rounds in order to get a "double-turn". While it may "miss the point", we initially found the variant in the DMG, so we assumed (perhaps naively) that it would be safe to try and implement. We follow the guidelines in the DMG and it doesn't really get that wonky, especially since DM Genie tracks everything for us anyways. My players actually like the idea that effects have a more variable duration during combat, so that hasn't hurt our game yet. As far as tactical anomalies, I kinda feel like they exist in real fights too. I used to kickbox (many moons ago) and we didn't just take turns swinging and kicking at each other. Sometimes it actually was advantageous to miss one opportunity to strike because your adversary left a bigger one immediately after. In effect, you can be slow to react in one moment, but your opponent leaves himself even more open a moment later allowing you multiple strikes before he can counter. This is how I kind of envision the scenario you describe in getting a double turn kind of effect. I mean no disrespect, but it's not like 3.5 combat is absolutely perfect as is. I do believe that it does a great job in trying to define something so chaotic as mortal combat. But I also believe that it's not so perfect that a group can't experiment with ways to make it more fun for them. The DMG even states that ultimately, this variant doesn't change things much. What it does change for my group though, is a greater sense of action and chaos, and a deeper immersion into their character's fight for survival. And if my players feel that it makes the game more fun for them, and I have a handy little program like DM Genie to do all of the hard work for me, I'd be a little crazy not to give it shot, wouldn't I? ;)
Daeva 08-30-07, 04:53 PM	i had a halfling ninja/dread commando with improved initiatve and a 24 dex after items, GM took me to the side after a game and accused me, of cheating on initiative rolls after a gmae, and then pointed out how the entire party is constantly rolling statistically too high on initiative. he diddnt really consider that my character had +16 to initiative, and gave the rest of the group +5. i liked that character, but id probably not take imp init if i remade him.
tyrecian 08-30-07, 07:07 PM	Personally i like this feat in an attack oriented PC. Rogues, wizards, sorcerers, DPS generators such as Barbarians and Rangers... More reactive PCs i play, who tend to wait and see, or react to an opponent's moves, i enjoy having low initiatives, such as healbot Cleric, Tank (fighter or paladin), druids.... That being said, i usually end up taking it at higher levels with even the reactive PCs, mainly because at 15th level you are fighting so many monsters that if the DM doesnt lump em all together in the same init (which is lazy) you end up beating a lot of the yard trash... always nice to get em before they disperse :D
BM15 08-30-07, 08:39 PM	Improved Init is a feat that you will probably never regret taking; it never stops being useful. You will always roll initiative at least once in combat. The ability to go first or hold a counter-action right at the begining of a fight cannot be underestimated. This feat is never a dead choice, no matter the class. However, for Rouges, Scouts, Ninjas and even Rangers, it is a MUST HAVE. If you're a Human, take it as your bonus feat. If not Human, find a early point at which you can take it. If you're a Fighter, you have so many feats why not take it? It allows you to get your weapon drawn and move out in front of the party (between them and the monsters) quicker, if not first. No brainer. When I play, 80% of the time I take Imporved Initiative by level three (I usually play a human and use the bonus feat for it). Great feat!
Johnny_Angel 08-30-07, 08:48 PM	It's usually a great feat when playing with my current DM. We roll initiative every round.