Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 04-12-07, 07:19 AM	Hi, Is Improved Initiative worth it for a caster or rogue? caster: get opponents before they start to move rogue: SA! Right? thanks!
Egres 04-12-07, 07:23 AM	Hi, Is Improved Initiative worth it for a caster or rogue? caster: get opponents before they start to move rogue: SA! Right? thanks! It all depends on your build.
Steely_Dan 04-12-07, 07:49 AM	I think it is one of the best feats for any character. Because as we all know, at the higher levels the game can boil down to: Who goes first, wins.
Leilond 04-12-07, 08:16 AM	Hi, Is Improved Initiative worth it for a caster or rogue? caster: get opponents before they start to move rogue: SA! Right? thanks! Usually it is a good feat for all "casters", because they can buff/protect/become invisible/start to fly, without the fear to be "interrupted" by "readied action" or wounded seriously, or taken in a grapple Rougue can use their Sneak Attack when they win initiative, so is is very good for them Other characters can have their adventages, like charging or the like, but the benefit (that exists!) is less influent than others
EyeHunter 04-12-07, 08:45 AM	However, it's only a +4 boost. Usaully, that will only put you ahead of one creature (ally or enemy) each combat. Given a 4-man party that often fights against just one foe; (for my group, about 75% of encouters are vs. one foe) you have about a 1-in-4 chance of striking your foe before he acts.
Tembo 04-12-07, 09:12 AM	The way I see it, if your a caster (particularly arcane) then you're either taking Imp. Init. or Combat Casting.... or both (but probably not). Just my two cents.
Bopple 04-12-07, 09:29 AM	While it's certainly useful for casters, it's not really useful for common rogues which use a melee build. A rogue who charges before the party fighter does, is a dead rogue.
TygerTyger 04-12-07, 09:38 AM	Think of improved initiative this way... its the equivalent bonus to iniatitive of having and extra 8 points of dexterity. Sounds worth it to me! He who goes first (for casters especially) sets the tone of the battle. The way I see it, if your a caster (particularly arcane) then you're either taking Imp. Init. or Combat Casting.... or both (but probably not). Whhhaaa? Combat casting? Why in god's name would any caster take that? Assuming you have decent ranks in the skill you can cast defensively (DC 15 + spell level), or if you are grappled you can always still make Concentration checks at DC 20 +spell level. Combat Casting is not worth a feat. If you really want a bonus to concentration checks, take Skill Focus Concentration, and get +3 to all concentration checks, not just the ones in combat. Sure its 1 point less than Combat Casting, but it applies in every single situation, not just the ones ennumerated in Combat Casting. /rant
jaelis 04-12-07, 10:04 AM	However, it's only a +4 boost. Usaully, that will only put you ahead of one creature (ally or enemy) each combat. Given a 4-man party that often fights against just one foe; (for my group, about 75% of encouters are vs. one foe) you have about a 1-in-4 chance of striking your foe before he acts. More precisely, if you and an opponent have equal dexterities, but you have Improved Init, then you have a 70% chance to win initiative. (Compared to 50% of course if you don't.) So you'll go first 7 times in 10, and the feat will make the difference (vs that foe) one in five times. If you're fighting multiple opponents, the feat makes a lot more difference. Versus three opponents, you'd normally only have a 1 in 8 chance to beat them all, compared to just over 1 in 3 if you have improved init.
tarkin 04-12-07, 10:29 AM	Improved Initiative is a very good feat in general. It is particularly good for characters that have high single action damage potential, such as casters or Sneak Attackers.
Vegepygmy 04-12-07, 12:18 PM	I concur that Improved Initiative is a good feat for any character, and especially good for spellcasters and sneak attackers.
inthesto 04-12-07, 12:24 PM	Also keep in mind that while Improved Initiative is "only" a +4 to your check, there's a very finite number of ways to boost your initiative in the first place. Going core-only, I'm pretty sure it's your only option outside of boosting your DEX, and as somebody else mentioned, the feat is equivalent to a +8 to that stat. Going outside of core, I can think of Quick Recoinniter (+2 to initiative), Nerveskitter (+5 as an immediate action, AND a level 1 spell? Let's just hope nobody's smart enough to combine this with War Weaver :rolleyes: ), Dread Commando (combine with the previous suggestion and never lose initiative again), and...that's it. Sure, +4 doesn't look like that much on paper, but considering there's so few equivalent matches, it's an excellent feat.
Vintar 04-12-07, 12:32 PM	Everyone keeps mentioning it being great for casters so they can get the first round before fighters - what about fighters going the other way around. I know when going against a high level caster I generally charge and grapple - and when they're flat-footed they don't even get an attack of op to try to negate my grapple attempt. Their round rolls around - they're grappled. They need to make a nasty concentration check and no material/somantic components. Only way I know of for having much of a chance against a caster at high levels w/o a lucky crit hit and lots of lucky save rolls.
Fallenangel359 04-12-07, 12:33 PM	Whats a fun one is +20 initiative from a ToB maneuver. If you have that... you WILL take first 90% of the time. However, it burns one of your readied slots.
Aminvelos 04-12-07, 12:35 PM	Definately for a diviner, who takes insightful divination. Whenever you cast a divination spell at 1 + spell lvl you gain an that inisight bonus on your next battle for initiativve and the first save you make. This bonus goes away for both after you make your first save. When your casting high level divinations like lvl 5 + Improved Init the +9 really helps out. Also, you don't need to necessarily all the enemies initiative to be effect, only the ones that can reach you :) I don't know about you guys, but generally our group is in a formation to protect the casters, so those who can reach the caster without provoking Attacks of Opportunity are few and far between. In the times the wizard is alone, and gets surprised by his enemy, I would like any and all possible advantages no matter how slim. Then again the run feat and or retributive metamagic may be the safer bet.
FntsyWlkr 04-12-07, 12:35 PM	The three feats I wish ALL OF MY CHARACTER had are: > Improved Toughness > Improved Intiative > Quick Draw I find all of those three ENTIRELY helpful during play.
Critalondel 04-12-07, 12:44 PM	Honestly, I'd say Improved Initiative is worth it for almost any character, unless they're some other feat they'd really rather have. Who doesn't want an init boost? Everyone likes it. Rogues for the potential to sneak attack, Fighters because, well, they fight. Wizards (and some Clerics) because they can go first and just lay down the mojo with wild abandon, potentially taking out a good chunk of the enemy before the rest of the fight even gets underway. Every class, and every build, can benefit from going faster.
Tony Vargas 04-12-07, 01:22 PM	II is an obvious feat choice if you want to go first. There aren't many mods to initiative, so the +4 is significant. However, initiative is rolled only once per combat. You're paying a feat to modify a roll that you might make 4 times in an adventuring 'day.' A population size of 4 doesn't exactly bring the law of large numbers into play, so you can find yourself disapointed by a string of low-initiative rolls. So, while it's a good feat choice, it's not something you can consistently rely upon.
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 01:35 PM	The only class that shouldn't take Improved Initiative is Knight. For anybody else, if you can afford the feat, do it, but don't compromise your build for it.
Keenath 04-12-07, 01:38 PM	A rogue or ninja is always well served by acting first; all creatures are flat-footed until they act, so if you can win initiative, you get a free sneak attack. The comment that you shouldn't charge is kind of meaningless; a rogue can just as easily throw a knife or shuriken or fire a bow as he can charge. A smart rogue who specializes in dual-knife style would use his move action to draw one magic, super-knife, and a completely mundane (for his level) knife, which he throws. Next turn, draw the second knife and procede to TWF.
CaoSlayer 04-12-07, 01:46 PM	A rogue or ninja is always well served by acting first; all creatures are flat-footed until they act, so if you can win initiative, you get a free sneak attack. The comment that you shouldn't charge is kind of meaningless; a rogue can just as easily throw a knife or shuriken or fire a bow as he can charge. A smart rogue who specializes in dual-knife style would use his move action to draw one magic, super-knife, and a completely mundane (for his level) knife, which he throws. Next turn, draw the second knife and procede to TWF. Or full attack with two returning daggers.
Sakaki22 04-12-07, 01:49 PM	Why would a Rogue want Improved Init if the goal is to run over and Sneak Attack first? That just leaves them potentially alone and in Full Attack range. However, a Rogue wants Improved Init so they can go first, hold their action, wait until the Paladin approaches the enemy, then go for the instant flank, for the exact same Sneak Attack, with backup to save your hide.
Peregrine_Wolf 04-12-07, 04:03 PM	Just a little thought...catfolk spellthief 5/daggerspell mage 10/ sorc 1, roll 18 for dex. gives you plus 6 dex. imp init, quick reconnoiter, catfolk pounce(feat), flick of the wrist(feat). you have plus 12 init, ability to charge and use full attack action. Use daggerspell flurry to unleash something destructive during your attack. also, take the sorc 1 to give arcane lvls from dag mage instead of wastin spellthief class abilities. MASSIVE ONE OPPONENT MASSACRE!!!!! btw, I win.
3DJutsu 04-12-07, 04:17 PM	While it's certainly useful for casters, it's not really useful for common rogues which use a melee build. A rogue who charges before the party fighter does, is a dead rogue. Prehaps, but you get SA against any foe who has yet to act in an encounter.
inthesto 04-12-07, 05:19 PM	Just a little thought...catfolk spellthief 5/daggerspell mage 10/ sorc 1, roll 18 for dex. gives you plus 6 dex. imp init, quick reconnoiter, catfolk pounce(feat), flick of the wrist(feat). you have plus 12 init, ability to charge and use full attack action. Use daggerspell flurry to unleash something destructive during your attack. also, take the sorc 1 to give arcane lvls from dag mage instead of wastin spellthief class abilities. MASSIVE ONE OPPONENT MASSACRE!!!!! btw, I win. My level 17 wizard has Foresight on and casts Celerity. :yuck:
Dheran 04-12-07, 05:27 PM	Improved Initiative is an expensive option for Rogues, who don't get any bonus feats. But with the right preparation it can be critically important. With DEX being a high priority for the class Rogues probably average around +2 higher on their initiative modifier than other classes. Improved Initiative would make that bonus about +6. So the Rogue will win on 6 of the possible 20 initiative die values because the total is higher than the opponent could possibly roll, 1 more (the tie value) because of a higher total initiative modifier, and half the rest, for a total initiative win ratio of 13.5/6.5 (almost exactly 2:1). If there are multiple enemies, the Rogue with II will almost always win initiative against somebody. A Rogue generally only makes a significant contribution to offense when they can deal sneak attack damage; typically sneak attack increases damage dealt by 3-4 times. A flat-footed enemy makes sneak attack possible. If there's a surprise round the Rogue is the character most likely to be able to benefit. Enough skill points to max out Spot and Listen means the Rogue is probably not going to be surprised. But it's easy to waste this opportunity, because a standard action doesn't allow drawing a weapon during movement. The Rogue either needs a missile weapon in hand, or Quick Draw. A melee-only Rogue will have to close and hope that their intended target is both flat-footed (because that condition doesn't show) and will stick around for a full attack, and vulnerable to sneak attack (because that doesn't always show, either). A Rogue who hits with a missile during the surprise round will know immediately if that target is vulnerable. If they're immune, the missile-attacking Rogue can pick a new target easily, whereas the melee-only Rogue has already committed to their target choice. Without a missile attack the only standard offensive option is to close the distance to the enemy, hoping to make a full attack. (Multiclass Rogue/caster characters can make a ranged sneak attack with a spell during the surprise round.) So, for a Rogue who's always ready with a missile attack (or a ranged spell), Improved Initiative is a must have feat. A melee-only Rogue has basically sacrificed most of the benefit of a surprise round, and Improved Initative isn't going to matter nearly as much.
Shadowhowler 04-12-07, 05:33 PM	Yah... lets all play 'Who's paper c@<K is bigger.' :) On the subject... I liked improved int... also, can't it be taken more then once if you wish? Has anyone ever made a build around repaeded improved int feats, pretty much cementing that the character goes first?
Vaelan 04-12-07, 05:58 PM	Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the feat. If I want to get the first strike in combat, I'll use the surprise round and take a feat that will allow me to pack more into that standard action. It doesn't rely as much on luck.
jaelis 04-12-07, 08:43 PM	On the subject... I liked improved int... also, can't it be taken more then once if you wish? Has anyone ever made a build around repaeded improved int feats, pretty much cementing that the character goes first? No, feats can only be taken once unless they specify otherwise. (Well technically you can take them more than once, but the benefit doesn't stack up.)
Kingfisher 04-12-07, 09:11 PM	Hi, Is Improved Initiative worth it for a caster or rogue? caster: get opponents before they start to move rogue: SA! Right? thanks! Absolutely. Going first means a crap load, even more so as you get higher in levels.
Shadowhowler 04-12-07, 09:50 PM	No, feats can only be taken once unless they specify otherwise. (Well technically you can take them more than once, but the benefit doesn't stack up.) I know that. I thought Improved Int was one of the ones that was marked as being able to be taken more then once...
jaelis 04-12-07, 10:53 PM	Ah. Well, as you've no doubt checked for yourself, it does not say that.
Magrus 04-13-07, 12:06 AM	I thought Improved Int was one of the ones that was marked as being able to be taken more then once... Nope. There is an epic version of the feat though I do believe. Still, that's epic, and a long way away from say, a 1st level rogue with Imp. Initiative running around all stab happy. Edit: Yep, right here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#superiorInitiative
jaelis 04-13-07, 12:20 AM	Indeed: Superior Initiative [Epic] Prerequisite: Improved Initiative. Benefit: You get a +8 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) the bonus from Improved Initiative.
Kintara 04-13-07, 01:06 AM	If there's a surprise round the Rogue is the character most likely to be able to benefit. Enough skill points to max out Spot and Listen means the Rogue is probably not going to be surprised. But it's easy to waste this opportunity, because a standard action doesn't allow drawing a weapon during movement. The Rogue either needs a missile weapon in hand, or Quick Draw. A melee-only Rogue will have to close and hope that their intended target is both flat-footed (because that condition doesn't show) and will stick around for a full attack, and vulnerable to sneak attack (because that doesn't always show, either). A Rogue who hits with a missile during the surprise round will know immediately if that target is vulnerable. If they're immune, the missile-attacking Rogue can pick a new target easily, whereas the melee-only Rogue has already committed to their target choice.Wait. Firstly, if you have the surprise round, then you're probably in a situation where you have at least a moment to prepare. Otherwise, it would just be a normal initiative check. Therefore, the Rogue should have less trouble taking advantage of that first attack, even consulting the resident expert to see if the enemy he's chosen is a good target for Sneak Attacks. Anyway, that's not to say that ranged sneak attacks aren't a good idea though. Improved Initiative is a good choice for human Rogues, especially core-only two weapon fighters, right at level 1. Improved Initiative is useful from the beginning to the end of the game and has no prerequisites.
Sphyre 04-13-07, 02:38 AM	Whats a fun one is +20 initiative from a ToB maneuver. If you have that... you WILL take first 90% of the time. However, it burns one of your readied slots. First? No. You must already be in battle and it must be your turn to do a swift action. What the maneuver does is let you essentially go before people who went before you in this turn for the rest of the battle if they did not beat your initiative by 20.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-13-07, 03:03 AM	Do you consider it worth it for the Beguiler: a caster with a more restricted spell-list?
The_sleeper1 04-13-07, 07:49 AM	I play a caster, I have afair inish bonus of +3 but even still I usualy go after all the high dex characters in the group. I usualy cast a haste first round so by not haveing that inish everyone lose's out on one attack at there highest bab in the first round, in a 4-5 member group that can be a lot of damage.
EyeHunter 04-13-07, 08:34 AM	If you're getting improved initiative, you should also consider Danger Sense from Complete Adventurer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/177290000). It really helps when you roll low on initiative. If I could, I'd take it over improved initiative. Also, I someone had a list of feats that improve intiative, but they missed two from Oriental Adventures (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/882440000). Each of which gives a +2 bonus and a bonus on somthing else. I would take Improved Initiative for rogue, I suppose, but casters have so much more interesting feats to take.
The_Shaman 04-13-07, 08:35 AM	Beguilers, like rogues, get extra bonuses when opponents have their AC denied. Hence, II can be useful. Also, of course, the ability to go first in a battle is still quite good. Didn't they have slow on their list, anyway? That's the kinda spell you want to pull off before anyone else has had a chance to go ;) . As for rogues getting in trouble with II, I beg to differ. A rogue can use thrown or missile weapons, and with a few feats this can be done from up to 60 feet (crossbow sniper, probably with rapid reload). Not to mention that if the opponent loses initiative after a surprise round, they can be in a loooot of trouble.
angryman 04-13-07, 10:33 AM	I've never taken it. Going first isn't that important for me. I usually play wizards, and I tend to have other spells (immediate or contingency) that make going first less important. I mean it's nice, but so are a lot of other feats.
Sphyre 04-13-07, 02:22 PM	I've never taken it. Going first isn't that important for me. I usually play wizards, and I tend to have other spells (immediate or contingency) that make going first less important. I mean it's nice, but so are a lot of other feats. I don't see it as that much of an issue for wizards either... although, you can't use immediate actions while flat footed though, so going first can help. Generally, i have a teleportation spell of some sort memorized at higher levels to get out of grapples. All you have to do is make an easy concentration check (as long as you've been maxing it - sometimes I've considered getting skill focus concentration, but I've never taken combat casting because skill focus is so much better)
EyeHunter 04-13-07, 07:33 PM	sometimes I've considered getting skill focus concentration, but I've never taken combat casting because skill focus is so much better) Only reason I'd take Combat Casting over Skill Focus is to get into a PrC.
Sphyre 04-14-07, 12:31 PM	Only reason I'd take Combat Casting over Skill Focus is to get into a PrC. Agreed :)