Improved Natural Attack + Slam [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Natural Attack + Slam [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lael
03-05-07, 03:35 AM Can this be done? One would assume you could because slam is a natural attack.
KurenaiYami
03-05-07, 03:39 AM Can this be done? One would assume you could because slam is a natural attack.

...Yes.

Why would it be debated?
Lael
03-05-07, 03:44 AM Just checking really.

Well its more of a case, can improved natural attack be combined with a Slam and boosted StoneSlam attack from StoneSpeaker Guardian (Races of Stone), which also makes you treated as one size larger.
runestar
03-05-07, 06:23 AM Hmm...both let you be treated as 1 size bigger for purposes of improving damage.

By rights, they should not stack...:(
WinterPsionic
03-05-07, 06:14 PM Hmm...both let you be treated as 1 size bigger for purposes of improving damage.

By rights, they should not stack...:(

Imp Nat Atk has a relation to size:confused: :confused: :confused:
Lael
03-05-07, 07:25 PM Yes it does. The feat says the damage for the attack increases by one step as if the creatures size had increased by one size.

StoneSlam Attack says something similar, the slam attacks deal damage as if the guardian was one size larger than she is.

Hence why I'm asking.
WinterPsionic
03-05-07, 07:27 PM Is being treated larger an actual bonus as per how bonuses are defined?

Technically it could be treated as a "size" bonus...
Lael
03-05-07, 07:42 PM Hrmm guess I'll ask my DM for a rulling.
AbyssKnight
03-05-07, 09:36 PM I don't see why they wouldn't stack. The rule says that multiple effects that increase you size don't stack. But neither of these actually increase you size.

And it can't be considered a size bonus, as it is not an addition but rather creates a new base damage. Bonus is defined as "a positive modifier."
runestar
03-06-07, 01:46 AM I don't see why they wouldn't stack. The rule says that multiple effects that increase you size don't stack. But neither of these actually increase you size.

And it can't be considered a size bonus, as it is not an addition but rather creates a new base damage. Bonus is defined as "a positive modifier."
I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size.

Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P
Dragonteuthis
03-06-07, 06:36 AM I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size.

Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P

Erm...but by that logic a +2 shield bonus to AC and a +4 armor bonus to AC would only result in an AC 14.

I don't know stone slam; I'd have to read the text to see what it says. But, given that one increase in damage is from a Feat and the other is a class ability, I'd be inclined to think they stack (the whole, "different sources" thing).

But again I'd want to read stoneslam to make an educated guess.
Vloorshad
03-06-07, 11:40 AM I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size.

Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P

Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

Not exactly. INA flat out and regardless of your original size increases your damage by one step as if your size had increased by one step. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build both allow you to wield bigger weapons as if you the wielder were one size bigger. Since neither of them actually increase you the wielder's size, medium is the base.
runestar
03-06-07, 08:42 PM Not exactly. INA flat out and regardless of your original size increases your damage by one step as if your size had increased by one step.
In short, you are treated as 1 size category larger for determining the damage of your natural attack, since your size does not actually increase.
Is my interpretation incorrect?:confused:
Vloorshad
03-07-07, 10:23 AM In short, you are treated as 1 size category larger for determining the damage of your natural attack, since your size does not actually increase.
Is my interpretation incorrect?:confused:

It's the sentence structure. In Powerful Build and Monkey Grip the focus is on "you are treated as one size category larger, so you get to do...". With INA, the focus is on "you do more damage, insert explanation here". It doesn't say you do damage as a creature one size category larger than you are, it tells you that your damage increases as if you had increased in size.

Note the sentence structure of Powerful Build:

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

You're reminded that you're only a medium creature with this ability. You wield weapons one size category larger than what? Medium. Monkey Grip says the same thing.

With INA your damage increases by a step as if you had increased in size, while Stone Slam does damage as if you were one size category larger than what you are. Minor difference in sentence structure, but huge difference in meaning.
Lael
03-08-07, 07:16 AM I'm pretty sure they stack now.

Stoneslam says you're treated as one size category larger than they are.

INA says the damage increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased one category.

The wording in INA is the key, increases by one step.
runestar
03-08-07, 07:23 AM I suppose you could interpret it that way...:)
jaelis
03-08-07, 08:52 AM I think they would stack, given the wording of INA. The "as if" part reads to me as an example indicating how the damage progression works, not that it is keyed off your size.

And it matters, because lots of natural attacks don't follow the size rules. If a medium creature had a natural slam that happened to do 1d8 damage, INA should still bump it up to 2d6, even though a "regular" medium slam is (IIRC) 1d4.

Wasn't this all hashed out with monks combining INA and Empty Hand Mastery or some such?
Vloorshad
03-08-07, 11:43 AM I think they would stack, given the wording of INA. The "as if" part reads to me as an example indicating how the damage progression works, not that it is keyed off your size.

And it matters, because lots of natural attacks don't follow the size rules. If a medium creature had a natural slam that happened to do 1d8 damage, INA should still bump it up to 2d6, even though a "regular" medium slam is (IIRC) 1d4.

Wasn't this all hashed out with monks combining INA and Empty Hand Mastery or some such?

Probably, but we still get "Can a Monk take INA?" threads from time to time, too. Not to mention threads get pruned and memories are short.
Lael
03-08-07, 10:46 PM A lot of the monk threads I've seen in the Optimisation board recommeded taking INA, but I would honestly run it past the DM before trying that. But with stoneslam the fact that it is actually another attack outside a human natural attack, its not a issue for moi :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lael 03-05-07, 03:35 AM	Can this be done? One would assume you could because slam is a natural attack.
KurenaiYami 03-05-07, 03:39 AM	Can this be done? One would assume you could because slam is a natural attack. ...Yes. Why would it be debated?
Lael 03-05-07, 03:44 AM	Just checking really. Well its more of a case, can improved natural attack be combined with a Slam and boosted StoneSlam attack from StoneSpeaker Guardian (Races of Stone), which also makes you treated as one size larger.
runestar 03-05-07, 06:23 AM	Hmm...both let you be treated as 1 size bigger for purposes of improving damage. By rights, they should not stack...:(
WinterPsionic 03-05-07, 06:14 PM	Hmm...both let you be treated as 1 size bigger for purposes of improving damage. By rights, they should not stack...:( Imp Nat Atk has a relation to size:confused: :confused: :confused:
Lael 03-05-07, 07:25 PM	Yes it does. The feat says the damage for the attack increases by one step as if the creatures size had increased by one size. StoneSlam Attack says something similar, the slam attacks deal damage as if the guardian was one size larger than she is. Hence why I'm asking.
WinterPsionic 03-05-07, 07:27 PM	Is being treated larger an actual bonus as per how bonuses are defined? Technically it could be treated as a "size" bonus...
Lael 03-05-07, 07:42 PM	Hrmm guess I'll ask my DM for a rulling.
AbyssKnight 03-05-07, 09:36 PM	I don't see why they wouldn't stack. The rule says that multiple effects that increase you size don't stack. But neither of these actually increase you size. And it can't be considered a size bonus, as it is not an addition but rather creates a new base damage. Bonus is defined as "a positive modifier."
runestar 03-06-07, 01:46 AM	I don't see why they wouldn't stack. The rule says that multiple effects that increase you size don't stack. But neither of these actually increase you size. And it can't be considered a size bonus, as it is not an addition but rather creates a new base damage. Bonus is defined as "a positive modifier." I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size. Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P
Dragonteuthis 03-06-07, 06:36 AM	I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size. Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P Erm...but by that logic a +2 shield bonus to AC and a +4 armor bonus to AC would only result in an AC 14. I don't know stone slam; I'd have to read the text to see what it says. But, given that one increase in damage is from a Feat and the other is a class ability, I'd be inclined to think they stack (the whole, "different sources" thing). But again I'd want to read stoneslam to make an educated guess.
Vloorshad 03-06-07, 11:40 AM	I interpret it as the same reason why powerful build does not stack with monkey grip - both are based off your base size. Same logic would extend to INA and stoneslam. Both state you are treated as 1 size larger for improving damage. So if you are medium, each bumps your damage from medium to large. So you effectively have 2 large slams overlapping with each other.:P Improved Natural Attack [General] Prerequisite Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack. Not exactly. INA flat out and regardless of your original size increases your damage by one step as if your size had increased by one step. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build both allow you to wield bigger weapons as if you the wielder were one size bigger. Since neither of them actually increase you the wielder's size, medium is the base.
runestar 03-06-07, 08:42 PM	Not exactly. INA flat out and regardless of your original size increases your damage by one step as if your size had increased by one step. In short, you are treated as 1 size category larger for determining the damage of your natural attack, since your size does not actually increase. Is my interpretation incorrect?:confused:
Vloorshad 03-07-07, 10:23 AM	In short, you are treated as 1 size category larger for determining the damage of your natural attack, since your size does not actually increase. Is my interpretation incorrect?:confused: It's the sentence structure. In Powerful Build and Monkey Grip the focus is on "you are treated as one size category larger, so you get to do...". With INA, the focus is on "you do more damage, insert explanation here". It doesn't say you do damage as a creature one size category larger than you are, it tells you that your damage increases as if you had increased in size. Note the sentence structure of Powerful Build: Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. You're reminded that you're only a medium creature with this ability. You wield weapons one size category larger than what? Medium. Monkey Grip says the same thing. With INA your damage increases by a step as if you had increased in size, while Stone Slam does damage as if you were one size category larger than what you are. Minor difference in sentence structure, but huge difference in meaning.
Lael 03-08-07, 07:16 AM	I'm pretty sure they stack now. Stoneslam says you're treated as one size category larger than they are. INA says the damage increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased one category. The wording in INA is the key, increases by one step.
runestar 03-08-07, 07:23 AM	I suppose you could interpret it that way...:)
jaelis 03-08-07, 08:52 AM	I think they would stack, given the wording of INA. The "as if" part reads to me as an example indicating how the damage progression works, not that it is keyed off your size. And it matters, because lots of natural attacks don't follow the size rules. If a medium creature had a natural slam that happened to do 1d8 damage, INA should still bump it up to 2d6, even though a "regular" medium slam is (IIRC) 1d4. Wasn't this all hashed out with monks combining INA and Empty Hand Mastery or some such?
Vloorshad 03-08-07, 11:43 AM	I think they would stack, given the wording of INA. The "as if" part reads to me as an example indicating how the damage progression works, not that it is keyed off your size. And it matters, because lots of natural attacks don't follow the size rules. If a medium creature had a natural slam that happened to do 1d8 damage, INA should still bump it up to 2d6, even though a "regular" medium slam is (IIRC) 1d4. Wasn't this all hashed out with monks combining INA and Empty Hand Mastery or some such? Probably, but we still get "Can a Monk take INA?" threads from time to time, too. Not to mention threads get pruned and memories are short.
Lael 03-08-07, 10:46 PM	A lot of the monk threads I've seen in the Optimisation board recommeded taking INA, but I would honestly run it past the DM before trying that. But with stoneslam the fact that it is actually another attack outside a human natural attack, its not a issue for moi :D