Improved Overrun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Overrun [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
05-03-07, 01:08 PM I am considering adding another use to the feat, Improved Overrun.

The feat would also allow you to avoid the AoO associated with an overrun, in addition to granting a +4 and not allowing the target to avoid you.

At first glance this seems more powerful than Improved Bullrush, Improved Grapple or Improved Sunder, but the Improved Disarm and Improved Trip feats grant 3 benefits, rather than 2 benefits as the previous 2 feats do.

This change would obviously not allow a target to avoid you or take an AoO against you. It would require the target to block you.

Opinions ??
Slimgauge
05-03-07, 01:47 PM ...this seems more powerful than Improved Bullrush or Improved Grapple, but the Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder feats grant 3 benefits, rather than 2 benefits as the previous 2 feats do.

What is the third benefit of Improved Sunder ?

Improved Bullrush
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed strength check

Improved Grapple
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed grapple check

Improved Disarm
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed attack check
c) no chance of being disarmed on failure

Improved Sunder
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 on attack roll to sunder
c) ?????

Improved Overrun
a) target may not avoid
b) +4 to opposed strength check to knock-down

I think you might TRADE-OFF the 'target may not avoid' provision for 'no AoO from target'. What I think might be interesting is a feat that lets you make multiple overruns in a single move, a la the 'Fell Trample' part of the Cavalry Charger feat without having to be mounted to do it. I want to bowl over ranks of goblins like bowling pins !
Shadowfax7
05-03-07, 02:32 PM What is the third benefit of Improved Sunder ? My mistake, I meant Improved Trip. I corrected my post above.
Slimgauge
05-03-07, 04:09 PM Ok, so that's what you meant. Let me revise my list (ordered by prerequisite)

Improved Grapple (pre-requisite Improved Unarmed Strike)
a) No AoO from target (unless target has Close Quarters Fighting)
b) +4 to opposed grapple check

Improved Bullrush (pre-requisite Power Attack)
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed strength check

Improved Sunder (pre-requisite Power Attack)
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 on attack roll to sunder

Improved Overrun (pre-requisite Power Attack)
a) target may not avoid
b) +4 to opposed strength check to knock-down

Improved Disarm (pre-requisite Combat Expertise)
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed attack check
c) no chance of being counter-disarmed on failure

Improved Trip (pre-requisite Combat Expertise)
a) No AoO from target
b) +4 to opposed strength check
c) melee attack on prone target if trip successful

So you're bothered by the lack of symmetry, that is, Improved Overrun is the only one that doesn't negate the AoO. I think this is because overrun is the ONLY attack of the group that the target can choose to avoid. This avoidance could be a good or bad thing from the overrunner's point of view, depending on his intent. If his intent was to get past the blocker to the McGuffin beyond him, being avoided is probably good, since all he's used is (part of) a move action to get to the blockers square to initiate the overrun, and he has the rest of his move action and his standard action left to use. If his intent was to knock the blocker prone and then move off, being avoided is bad, since you didn't actually get to attack him. The attacker could just stop movement in the next square and make a standard trip attack, but then why not simply have moved up and done that in the first place ? Just take Improved Trip instead of Improved Overrun and avoid the AoO entirely (and get a free attack if you succeed).

Normally the target of an overrun gets his AoO, then decides to avoid or block.
RAW improved overrun makes the second decision for him, that is it requires he block.
One way to re-write this would be to require the target of an improved overrun to make this avoid or block decision FIRST. If he chooses to avoid, he gets no AoO. If he blocks, he gets his AoO, but then is very likely to get flattened (knocked prone) by that +4 check. If you want to beef up Improved Overrun, perhaps add c) no chance of being knocked prone on failure to knock a blocker prone.
Shadowfax7
05-03-07, 09:32 PM So you're bothered by the lack of symmetry, that is, Improved Overrun is the only one that doesn't negate the AoO. This isn't the reason, but I had noticed that.

Basically I wanted to "improve" Imroved Overrun as no one ever takes it or considers taking it IMC and I was wondering if my additional benefit made the feat too powerful.

So, that is really my question ??

If you want to beef up Improved Overrun, perhaps add c) no chance of being knocked prone on failure to knock a blocker prone.This is a good idea.
Shadowfax7
05-04-07, 12:58 PM Does anyone believe that allowing Improved Overrun to allow you to avoid the AoO associated with an overrun, in addition to granting a +4 and not allowing the target to avoid you, would be overpowered ??

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 05-03-07, 01:08 PM	I am considering adding another use to the feat, Improved Overrun. The feat would also allow you to avoid the AoO associated with an overrun, in addition to granting a +4 and not allowing the target to avoid you. At first glance this seems more powerful than Improved Bullrush, Improved Grapple or Improved Sunder, but the Improved Disarm and Improved Trip feats grant 3 benefits, rather than 2 benefits as the previous 2 feats do. This change would obviously not allow a target to avoid you or take an AoO against you. It would require the target to block you. Opinions ??
Slimgauge 05-03-07, 01:47 PM	...this seems more powerful than Improved Bullrush or Improved Grapple, but the Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder feats grant 3 benefits, rather than 2 benefits as the previous 2 feats do. What is the third benefit of Improved Sunder ? Improved Bullrush a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed strength check Improved Grapple a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed grapple check Improved Disarm a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed attack check c) no chance of being disarmed on failure Improved Sunder a) No AoO from target b) +4 on attack roll to sunder c) ????? Improved Overrun a) target may not avoid b) +4 to opposed strength check to knock-down I think you might TRADE-OFF the 'target may not avoid' provision for 'no AoO from target'. What I think might be interesting is a feat that lets you make multiple overruns in a single move, a la the 'Fell Trample' part of the Cavalry Charger feat without having to be mounted to do it. I want to bowl over ranks of goblins like bowling pins !
Shadowfax7 05-03-07, 02:32 PM	What is the third benefit of Improved Sunder ? My mistake, I meant Improved Trip. I corrected my post above.
Slimgauge 05-03-07, 04:09 PM	Ok, so that's what you meant. Let me revise my list (ordered by prerequisite) Improved Grapple (pre-requisite Improved Unarmed Strike) a) No AoO from target (unless target has Close Quarters Fighting) b) +4 to opposed grapple check Improved Bullrush (pre-requisite Power Attack) a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed strength check Improved Sunder (pre-requisite Power Attack) a) No AoO from target b) +4 on attack roll to sunder Improved Overrun (pre-requisite Power Attack) a) target may not avoid b) +4 to opposed strength check to knock-down Improved Disarm (pre-requisite Combat Expertise) a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed attack check c) no chance of being counter-disarmed on failure Improved Trip (pre-requisite Combat Expertise) a) No AoO from target b) +4 to opposed strength check c) melee attack on prone target if trip successful So you're bothered by the lack of symmetry, that is, Improved Overrun is the only one that doesn't negate the AoO. I think this is because overrun is the ONLY attack of the group that the target can choose to avoid. This avoidance could be a good or bad thing from the overrunner's point of view, depending on his intent. If his intent was to get past the blocker to the McGuffin beyond him, being avoided is probably good, since all he's used is (part of) a move action to get to the blockers square to initiate the overrun, and he has the rest of his move action and his standard action left to use. If his intent was to knock the blocker prone and then move off, being avoided is bad, since you didn't actually get to attack him. The attacker could just stop movement in the next square and make a standard trip attack, but then why not simply have moved up and done that in the first place ? Just take Improved Trip instead of Improved Overrun and avoid the AoO entirely (and get a free attack if you succeed). Normally the target of an overrun gets his AoO, then decides to avoid or block. RAW improved overrun makes the second decision for him, that is it requires he block. One way to re-write this would be to require the target of an improved overrun to make this avoid or block decision FIRST. If he chooses to avoid, he gets no AoO. If he blocks, he gets his AoO, but then is very likely to get flattened (knocked prone) by that +4 check. If you want to beef up Improved Overrun, perhaps add c) no chance of being knocked prone on failure to knock a blocker prone.
Shadowfax7 05-03-07, 09:32 PM	So you're bothered by the lack of symmetry, that is, Improved Overrun is the only one that doesn't negate the AoO. This isn't the reason, but I had noticed that. Basically I wanted to "improve" Imroved Overrun as no one ever takes it or considers taking it IMC and I was wondering if my additional benefit made the feat too powerful. So, that is really my question ?? If you want to beef up Improved Overrun, perhaps add c) no chance of being knocked prone on failure to knock a blocker prone.This is a good idea.
Shadowfax7 05-04-07, 12:58 PM	Does anyone believe that allowing Improved Overrun to allow you to avoid the AoO associated with an overrun, in addition to granting a +4 and not allowing the target to avoid you, would be overpowered ??