Improved rapidstrike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved rapidstrike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scorpioni
08-14-07, 01:00 PM I looked in Draconomicon and read the Improved rapidstrike feat but found the writing unclear. How many attacks can you have with say a pair of claws?

When I read the feat description, I'm inclined to say 5 attacks with one and 1 with the other but that sounds really strange.

Any help?
Thx in advance
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-14-07, 01:33 PM Four attacks with one, one attack with the other is one reading. Four attacks with one, four with the other is the other reading. I'm not sure which one was the one that was intended, but I'd go with the first one on account of the second one being horrifically powerful.
tarkin
08-14-07, 01:41 PM Each feat adds a single attack.

Rapid Strike taken once adds a single attack to your choice of natural weapon that you have a pair of and that does not already have rapidstrike, at a -5 penalty. Improved Rapid Strike adds another additional attack (two including the rapid strike one), at another -5.

Normal: A dragon with a bite, two claws, two wings, and a tail attack.

Taking Rapid Strike one time, using claw: A dragon with a bite, three claws, two wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws has an additional -5 penalty to hit.

Taking Rapid Strike twice: A dragon with a bite, three claws, three wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws and one of the wings has an additional -5 penalty to hit.

Taking Rapid Strike once and Improved Rapid Strike once, using claws: A dragon with a bite, FOUR claws, two wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws has an additional -5 penalty to hit, another has -10.

Taking Rapid Strike twice and Improved Rapid Strike twice, using claws: A dragon with a bite, FOUR claws, FOUR wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws and one of the wings has an additional -5 penalty to hit, another of each has -10.

Net number of attacks, with no feats: 6
Net number of attacks, with all four feats: 10 total attacks.
Scorpioni
08-14-07, 01:58 PM Thx for the assistance... It seems I need to find an extra source to make the claws of my dragon heritage gish work then :p
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-14-07, 02:53 PM Each feat adds a single attack.

Rapid Strike taken once adds a single attack to your choice of natural weapon that you have a pair of and that does not already have rapidstrike, at a -5 penalty. Improved Rapid Strike adds another additional attack (two including the rapid strike one), at another -5.

Reread Improved Rapidstrike. You get a total of...

Wow. Three more, not including the one from Rapidstrike. Looks like it is five attacks with one claw, and one with the other.
Cindre2000
08-14-07, 03:09 PM Or three and three...
Scorpioni
08-14-07, 03:20 PM Id, that makes more sense. Maybe they messed up typing the feat's description. Anyway, I'm asking my DM to allow for 3/3 attacks (and possibly rapidstrike to 2/2)
tarkin
08-14-07, 03:23 PM I read the feat. You guys are misreading what it does, making it do FAR more it says, simply because you want it to.

Just like ALL the other feats that add an attack it is ONE feat = ONE attack. Same with TWF, same with Rapid Shot, same with all the similar feats.

The key words are " with one of those weapons" and also the fact that NO it does not stack with Rapidstrike, it changes what Rapidstrike does.
Cindre2000
08-14-07, 03:32 PM I am not saying you get a two for one deal, however, you may gain up to 4 additional attacks at the expense of four feats. I was not trying to imply anything else.
Scorpioni
08-14-07, 04:27 PM What's there to misread?

'... You can make 2 OR MORE EXTRA attacks with one of those weapons'

'The first at a -5, and the second and SUBSEQUENT attacks at an additional -5 but never more than FOUR EXTRA attacks.'

Following Tarkin's logic that would mean the original 2 claw attacks + 1 from rapidstrike + 1 from impr rapidstrike =4. Then why does it say 4 EXTRA attacks? (as in 2 + 4 extra)

Either way, the feat is badly worded, since I'm probably right by RAW but it feels wrong.
EjoThims
08-14-07, 06:18 PM With Improved Rapidstrike a creature with a pair of claws could make a total of SIX claw attacks.

The first two would be at full bonus, the third at -5, the fourth at -10, the fifth at -15, and the sixth at -20.

A true dragon with the feat twice (once for wings and once for claws) could make 14 attacks a round before any other modifiers.

Six with claws, six with wings, one bite, and one tail.
EjoThims
08-14-07, 06:19 PM Tarkin, the keywords are "two or more extra attacks... but never more than four extra attacks."

2 claw attacks + 4 extra claw attacks = 6 claw attacks

It's pretty simple math.
Scorpioni
08-14-07, 07:17 PM Indeed that's what I thought too...

It just seems weird... I have these weird mental picture of a red dragon, punching a fighter again, and again, and again with his left claw while his right claw is chasing a butterfly :D
The_Shaman
08-14-07, 07:36 PM IIRC rapidstrike only applies to one of the pair of weapons. Presuming high BAB, this means that one of the claws (kinda like your main claw), will make itirative attacks at full BAB/-5/-10/-15, just like a PC with a weapon; the other will attack once - it speaks of A claw iirc - at full BAB.
Twylyght
08-14-07, 11:39 PM And I figure a creature with 4 claws could take it once for each pair of claws. (im looking at you draconic thri-kreen), thats alot of feats but if you can pull it off... ouch.

*edit* though youd have to think of a way to pick up the draconic, or other prequisite creature types, without an additional LA, need 18 character levels(and 15 BAB) to pick up the 2nd improved rapid strike... grrr defeated for now
rampant
08-15-07, 02:13 AM Well I always saw the extra attacks as being a sort of flurry type deal where both claws are going full tilt to rip some poor schmoe a new set of face holes. The only time this would come up is if one claw was somehow different from another.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scorpioni 08-14-07, 01:00 PM	I looked in Draconomicon and read the Improved rapidstrike feat but found the writing unclear. How many attacks can you have with say a pair of claws? When I read the feat description, I'm inclined to say 5 attacks with one and 1 with the other but that sounds really strange. Any help? Thx in advance
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-14-07, 01:33 PM	Four attacks with one, one attack with the other is one reading. Four attacks with one, four with the other is the other reading. I'm not sure which one was the one that was intended, but I'd go with the first one on account of the second one being horrifically powerful.
tarkin 08-14-07, 01:41 PM	Each feat adds a single attack. Rapid Strike taken once adds a single attack to your choice of natural weapon that you have a pair of and that does not already have rapidstrike, at a -5 penalty. Improved Rapid Strike adds another additional attack (two including the rapid strike one), at another -5. Normal: A dragon with a bite, two claws, two wings, and a tail attack. Taking Rapid Strike one time, using claw: A dragon with a bite, three claws, two wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws has an additional -5 penalty to hit. Taking Rapid Strike twice: A dragon with a bite, three claws, three wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws and one of the wings has an additional -5 penalty to hit. Taking Rapid Strike once and Improved Rapid Strike once, using claws: A dragon with a bite, FOUR claws, two wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws has an additional -5 penalty to hit, another has -10. Taking Rapid Strike twice and Improved Rapid Strike twice, using claws: A dragon with a bite, FOUR claws, FOUR wings, and a tail attack. One of the claws and one of the wings has an additional -5 penalty to hit, another of each has -10. Net number of attacks, with no feats: 6 Net number of attacks, with all four feats: 10 total attacks.
Scorpioni 08-14-07, 01:58 PM	Thx for the assistance... It seems I need to find an extra source to make the claws of my dragon heritage gish work then :p
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-14-07, 02:53 PM	Each feat adds a single attack. Rapid Strike taken once adds a single attack to your choice of natural weapon that you have a pair of and that does not already have rapidstrike, at a -5 penalty. Improved Rapid Strike adds another additional attack (two including the rapid strike one), at another -5. Reread Improved Rapidstrike. You get a total of... Wow. Three more, not including the one from Rapidstrike. Looks like it is five attacks with one claw, and one with the other.
Cindre2000 08-14-07, 03:09 PM	Or three and three...
Scorpioni 08-14-07, 03:20 PM	Id, that makes more sense. Maybe they messed up typing the feat's description. Anyway, I'm asking my DM to allow for 3/3 attacks (and possibly rapidstrike to 2/2)
tarkin 08-14-07, 03:23 PM	I read the feat. You guys are misreading what it does, making it do FAR more it says, simply because you want it to. Just like ALL the other feats that add an attack it is ONE feat = ONE attack. Same with TWF, same with Rapid Shot, same with all the similar feats. The key words are " with one of those weapons" and also the fact that NO it does not stack with Rapidstrike, it changes what Rapidstrike does.
Cindre2000 08-14-07, 03:32 PM	I am not saying you get a two for one deal, however, you may gain up to 4 additional attacks at the expense of four feats. I was not trying to imply anything else.
Scorpioni 08-14-07, 04:27 PM	What's there to misread? '... You can make 2 OR MORE EXTRA attacks with one of those weapons' 'The first at a -5, and the second and SUBSEQUENT attacks at an additional -5 but never more than FOUR EXTRA attacks.' Following Tarkin's logic that would mean the original 2 claw attacks + 1 from rapidstrike + 1 from impr rapidstrike =4. Then why does it say 4 EXTRA attacks? (as in 2 + 4 extra) Either way, the feat is badly worded, since I'm probably right by RAW but it feels wrong.
EjoThims 08-14-07, 06:18 PM	With Improved Rapidstrike a creature with a pair of claws could make a total of SIX claw attacks. The first two would be at full bonus, the third at -5, the fourth at -10, the fifth at -15, and the sixth at -20. A true dragon with the feat twice (once for wings and once for claws) could make 14 attacks a round before any other modifiers. Six with claws, six with wings, one bite, and one tail.
EjoThims 08-14-07, 06:19 PM	Tarkin, the keywords are "two or more extra attacks... but never more than four extra attacks." 2 claw attacks + 4 extra claw attacks = 6 claw attacks It's pretty simple math.
Scorpioni 08-14-07, 07:17 PM	Indeed that's what I thought too... It just seems weird... I have these weird mental picture of a red dragon, punching a fighter again, and again, and again with his left claw while his right claw is chasing a butterfly :D
The_Shaman 08-14-07, 07:36 PM	IIRC rapidstrike only applies to one of the pair of weapons. Presuming high BAB, this means that one of the claws (kinda like your main claw), will make itirative attacks at full BAB/-5/-10/-15, just like a PC with a weapon; the other will attack once - it speaks of A claw iirc - at full BAB.
Twylyght 08-14-07, 11:39 PM	And I figure a creature with 4 claws could take it once for each pair of claws. (im looking at you draconic thri-kreen), thats alot of feats but if you can pull it off... ouch. edit though youd have to think of a way to pick up the draconic, or other prequisite creature types, without an additional LA, need 18 character levels(and 15 BAB) to pick up the 2nd improved rapid strike... grrr defeated for now
rampant 08-15-07, 02:13 AM	Well I always saw the extra attacks as being a sort of flurry type deal where both claws are going full tilt to rip some poor schmoe a new set of face holes. The only time this would come up is if one claw was somehow different from another.