Improved Spell Capacity Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Spell Capacity Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deeorn
02-25-08, 05:55 PM I have a question about the Improved Spell Capacity feat that I can't seem to find the answer for. Most of the instances of when it came up in the forums search it was talked about for Arcane casters, what I want to know about is for a Cleric.

If a Cleric takes Improved Spell Capacity and gains 10th, 11th level spell slots, anything above 9th really, does the cleric gain a Domain spell slot as well for that spell Level.

Looking for some opinions or a rule somewhere that states it one way or the other. The feat itself doesn't specifically say that it grants a cleric a domain spell, however it does say that you can gain extra spell slots through high ability scores, making it act the same way other spell levels do.

On Page 32 of the PHB 3.5 it under the cleric spells description it says "A cleric also gains one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level."

It doesn't list a max level, so if you take the feat, you would gain Level 10 spell slots but would you gain the domain slot as well?

It looks like you would, but am I misunderstanding something possibly?
dman11235
02-25-08, 08:36 PM No. It says nothing of granting domain slots, and domains don't even have spells higher than 9th level, because spells above 9th level don't exist (Epic spells don't count, and neither do MM'd spells). Besides, it grants one spell slot of 10th level, and when you take it again, it grants another of a higher level. This also lets you apply bonus spells from a high ability score. These go in your normal spell slots, and that's it.

EDIT: I suppose you could look at it like this: you do gain the spells in the domain slot, but you can't prepare anything there because there is nothing there to prepare. So that also excludes any spontaneous casting since the slot has not been prepared and there is no magic.
Deeorn
02-25-08, 09:30 PM I thought about that too, but You can prepare lower level domain spells in higher level slots and you can Meta-Magic Domain spells also. If you have the Domain slot you could put a spell in it.
dman11235
02-26-08, 12:04 AM Uh, how? At each level you can prepare a domain spell of that level. You can't use these slots for anything else. And the only way you can MM a domain spell is if it's on your spell list and you prepare it in your normal slots at a higher level.
Merestil Haye
02-26-08, 06:24 AM Uh, how? At each level you can prepare a domain spell of that level. You can't use these slots for anything else. And the only way you can MM a domain spell is if it's on your spell list and you prepare it in your normal slots at a higher level.Yes, you can.

The SRD says :With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.That does not require that you fill a 2nd level domain slot with a 2nd level spell.

The rules are explicit in saying this :A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.This applies to all spellcasters, without exception, and nothing limits its application wrt domain slots. If I want to prepare a 3rd level domain spell in my 6th level domain slot, why should I not be able to?

Similarly, application of metamagic is an option that a character can possess, and the rules do not restrict them from applying to domain slots.
Deeorn
02-26-08, 05:47 PM So I e-mail Wizards Customer support and Heres what was said.

The Question:
This question is in Regards to Clerics and Specialized Wizards.

If a Character takes the Improved Spell capacity Feat and Gains 10th Level spell slots, does that character then gain the Bonus Domain spell if they are a cleric, or in the case of a Specialist wizard, the extra spell for thier chosen school.

I can not seem to find a rule one way or the other on either the message boards or the books I own.

When you take the Feat the extra spell level seems to work exactly the same way all the spell levels previous to it worked, gaining extra spell slots through higher ability scores and so on.

The rules in the Cleric Section of the PHB Page 32 state that "A Cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at first level." The Section for Wizard specialization states something similar for thier extra spell. With the Ability to memorize lower level spells in higher level slots there is no problem filling that extra spell slot.

So the Long and short of it is, do those classes gain thier extra spell when the take the Improved Spell Capacity as it looks like they should, or am I misunderstanding something.

And the Answer:
Strictly speaking, there are no 10th level Domain spells, though a Specialist Wizard would receive the additional bonus spell, just as you receive additional bonuses spells for extremely high spellcasting statistic modifiers.
The DM could of course expand a Domain to allow 10th level Domain spells if desired.

The Wording for the Extra spell for the Wizard Specialization is very similar to what it says for the Bonus Cleric Domain Spell. According to what is said there, the Wizard does indeed get the extra spell, It would imply the Cleric should also, but it looks like they looked at the question, said no 10th level domain spells exists, and forgot the part about whether or no the domain spell slot exists. I know theres no 10th Level domain spells, but does the slot exists?

Thoughts? Comments?
DeathlessJuan
02-26-08, 06:10 PM In regards to this:

As a DM, I would allow the bonus spells from domains/specialization, but only spells that are on your lvl1-9 domain list or specialized spell list could be prepare in those slots, via metamagic or other means.

I was not aware of the bonus spells before this and always wonder why someone would take that feat for just 1 bonus spell and maybe some more bonus spells from high ability score. Now, the feat has more merit in my eyes.
runestar
02-27-08, 05:56 AM The ELH errata allows specialist casters (focused specialists rejoice!!!:D ) to gain bonus slots for their 10th+ lv slots. It seems fair to allow the same benefit to clerics as well.:)
BigGus
02-28-08, 08:23 PM I asked this question before here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968573 and on the Dicefreaks Black Ops site. Nobody could offer a definite ruling on the matter, and what evidence there is is contradictory; for example, the ELH sample characters don't give Clerics bonus epic domain spell slots, but then neither do they give specialist Wizards their bonus spell slots, although the FAQ says they should get them. In the end, I put it to the vote, and there was a definite majority that Clerics shouldn't get the bonus slots (about 9 no's to 3 yes's, IIRC).

But I think the basic answer is; make up your own mind.
Solaria
03-03-08, 03:28 AM In regards to this:

As a DM, I would allow the bonus spells from domains/specialization, but only spells that are on your lvl1-9 domain list or specialized spell list could be prepare in those slots, via metamagic or other means.

I was not aware of the bonus spells before this and always wonder why someone would take that feat for just 1 bonus spell and maybe some more bonus spells from high ability score. Now, the feat has more merit in my eyes.

The higher level slots are nice for a number of things. To start with, you can quicken or empower higher level spells. You can also heighten a spell, to raise it's DC. The DC of a spell is 10 + spell level + caster ability bonus; more is always better, because at epic levels everybody gains 1 more to saves every other level.

Another nice use is with reserve feats. A feat like Fiery Blast does 1d6/level of the spell. If you heighten a DBFB to 15th level and just let it sit there, you can cast a 15d6 fiery blast each round and never run out of spells. This makes you useful while the tanks are clearing trash, and lets you save your big guns for the real bad guys.

Another great use of these slots is to make higher level spells innate. Once you get to level 17, innate shapechange, wish, meteor swarm, time stop, and other stuff becomes available.
angryscrub
03-08-08, 11:26 AM With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.

That does not require that you fill a 2nd level domain slot with a 2nd level spell.

ummm, i interpret that exactly opposite of you. "one or the other for each level of spell" seems pretty clear to me. you have two choices for each level of domain spell. that's it. has this been officially addressed somewhere?
Merestil Haye
03-08-08, 01:11 PM ummm, i interpret that exactly opposite of you. "one or the other for each level of spell" seems pretty clear to me. you have two choices for each level of domain spell. that's it. has this been officially addressed somewhere?I really don't think it needs to be.

The spellcaster always has the option to prepare a spell using a higher level spell slot. Always. The rules are explicit on this. If a DM rules that a 3rd level cleric with the War domain cannot prepare a Magic Weapon spell in his 3rd level domain slot, he is houseruling, pure and simple.

My post already contains the relevant SRD quote; it's found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots). It applies to divine casters because the rules for divine spell preparation are the same as for wizards other than for noted exceptions - and this is not one. A spellcaster with metamagic feats simply has more options when preparing spells in slots of higher level.

This is a benefit for all preparing spellcasters, If it were not intended to work that way for domain spells, the rules on preparing domains spells would need to explicitly deny that capability to clerics - and they do not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deeorn 02-25-08, 05:55 PM	I have a question about the Improved Spell Capacity feat that I can't seem to find the answer for. Most of the instances of when it came up in the forums search it was talked about for Arcane casters, what I want to know about is for a Cleric. If a Cleric takes Improved Spell Capacity and gains 10th, 11th level spell slots, anything above 9th really, does the cleric gain a Domain spell slot as well for that spell Level. Looking for some opinions or a rule somewhere that states it one way or the other. The feat itself doesn't specifically say that it grants a cleric a domain spell, however it does say that you can gain extra spell slots through high ability scores, making it act the same way other spell levels do. On Page 32 of the PHB 3.5 it under the cleric spells description it says "A cleric also gains one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level." It doesn't list a max level, so if you take the feat, you would gain Level 10 spell slots but would you gain the domain slot as well? It looks like you would, but am I misunderstanding something possibly?
dman11235 02-25-08, 08:36 PM	No. It says nothing of granting domain slots, and domains don't even have spells higher than 9th level, because spells above 9th level don't exist (Epic spells don't count, and neither do MM'd spells). Besides, it grants one spell slot of 10th level, and when you take it again, it grants another of a higher level. This also lets you apply bonus spells from a high ability score. These go in your normal spell slots, and that's it. EDIT: I suppose you could look at it like this: you do gain the spells in the domain slot, but you can't prepare anything there because there is nothing there to prepare. So that also excludes any spontaneous casting since the slot has not been prepared and there is no magic.
Deeorn 02-25-08, 09:30 PM	I thought about that too, but You can prepare lower level domain spells in higher level slots and you can Meta-Magic Domain spells also. If you have the Domain slot you could put a spell in it.
dman11235 02-26-08, 12:04 AM	Uh, how? At each level you can prepare a domain spell of that level. You can't use these slots for anything else. And the only way you can MM a domain spell is if it's on your spell list and you prepare it in your normal slots at a higher level.
Merestil Haye 02-26-08, 06:24 AM	Uh, how? At each level you can prepare a domain spell of that level. You can't use these slots for anything else. And the only way you can MM a domain spell is if it's on your spell list and you prepare it in your normal slots at a higher level.Yes, you can. The SRD says :With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.That does not require that you fill a 2nd level domain slot with a 2nd level spell. The rules are explicit in saying this :A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.This applies to all spellcasters, without exception, and nothing limits its application wrt domain slots. If I want to prepare a 3rd level domain spell in my 6th level domain slot, why should I not be able to? Similarly, application of metamagic is an option that a character can possess, and the rules do not restrict them from applying to domain slots.
Deeorn 02-26-08, 05:47 PM	So I e-mail Wizards Customer support and Heres what was said. The Question: This question is in Regards to Clerics and Specialized Wizards. If a Character takes the Improved Spell capacity Feat and Gains 10th Level spell slots, does that character then gain the Bonus Domain spell if they are a cleric, or in the case of a Specialist wizard, the extra spell for thier chosen school. I can not seem to find a rule one way or the other on either the message boards or the books I own. When you take the Feat the extra spell level seems to work exactly the same way all the spell levels previous to it worked, gaining extra spell slots through higher ability scores and so on. The rules in the Cleric Section of the PHB Page 32 state that "A Cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at first level." The Section for Wizard specialization states something similar for thier extra spell. With the Ability to memorize lower level spells in higher level slots there is no problem filling that extra spell slot. So the Long and short of it is, do those classes gain thier extra spell when the take the Improved Spell Capacity as it looks like they should, or am I misunderstanding something. And the Answer: Strictly speaking, there are no 10th level Domain spells, though a Specialist Wizard would receive the additional bonus spell, just as you receive additional bonuses spells for extremely high spellcasting statistic modifiers. The DM could of course expand a Domain to allow 10th level Domain spells if desired. The Wording for the Extra spell for the Wizard Specialization is very similar to what it says for the Bonus Cleric Domain Spell. According to what is said there, the Wizard does indeed get the extra spell, It would imply the Cleric should also, but it looks like they looked at the question, said no 10th level domain spells exists, and forgot the part about whether or no the domain spell slot exists. I know theres no 10th Level domain spells, but does the slot exists? Thoughts? Comments?
DeathlessJuan 02-26-08, 06:10 PM	In regards to this: As a DM, I would allow the bonus spells from domains/specialization, but only spells that are on your lvl1-9 domain list or specialized spell list could be prepare in those slots, via metamagic or other means. I was not aware of the bonus spells before this and always wonder why someone would take that feat for just 1 bonus spell and maybe some more bonus spells from high ability score. Now, the feat has more merit in my eyes.
runestar 02-27-08, 05:56 AM	The ELH errata allows specialist casters (focused specialists rejoice!!!:D ) to gain bonus slots for their 10th+ lv slots. It seems fair to allow the same benefit to clerics as well.:)
BigGus 02-28-08, 08:23 PM	I asked this question before here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968573 and on the Dicefreaks Black Ops site. Nobody could offer a definite ruling on the matter, and what evidence there is is contradictory; for example, the ELH sample characters don't give Clerics bonus epic domain spell slots, but then neither do they give specialist Wizards their bonus spell slots, although the FAQ says they should get them. In the end, I put it to the vote, and there was a definite majority that Clerics shouldn't get the bonus slots (about 9 no's to 3 yes's, IIRC). But I think the basic answer is; make up your own mind.
Solaria 03-03-08, 03:28 AM	In regards to this: As a DM, I would allow the bonus spells from domains/specialization, but only spells that are on your lvl1-9 domain list or specialized spell list could be prepare in those slots, via metamagic or other means. I was not aware of the bonus spells before this and always wonder why someone would take that feat for just 1 bonus spell and maybe some more bonus spells from high ability score. Now, the feat has more merit in my eyes. The higher level slots are nice for a number of things. To start with, you can quicken or empower higher level spells. You can also heighten a spell, to raise it's DC. The DC of a spell is 10 + spell level + caster ability bonus; more is always better, because at epic levels everybody gains 1 more to saves every other level. Another nice use is with reserve feats. A feat like Fiery Blast does 1d6/level of the spell. If you heighten a DBFB to 15th level and just let it sit there, you can cast a 15d6 fiery blast each round and never run out of spells. This makes you useful while the tanks are clearing trash, and lets you save your big guns for the real bad guys. Another great use of these slots is to make higher level spells innate. Once you get to level 17, innate shapechange, wish, meteor swarm, time stop, and other stuff becomes available.
angryscrub 03-08-08, 11:26 AM	With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot. That does not require that you fill a 2nd level domain slot with a 2nd level spell. ummm, i interpret that exactly opposite of you. "one or the other for each level of spell" seems pretty clear to me. you have two choices for each level of domain spell. that's it. has this been officially addressed somewhere?
Merestil Haye 03-08-08, 01:11 PM	ummm, i interpret that exactly opposite of you. "one or the other for each level of spell" seems pretty clear to me. you have two choices for each level of domain spell. that's it. has this been officially addressed somewhere?I really don't think it needs to be. The spellcaster always has the option to prepare a spell using a higher level spell slot. Always. The rules are explicit on this. If a DM rules that a 3rd level cleric with the War domain cannot prepare a Magic Weapon spell in his 3rd level domain slot, he is houseruling, pure and simple. My post already contains the relevant SRD quote; it's found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots). It applies to divine casters because the rules for divine spell preparation are the same as for wizards other than for noted exceptions - and this is not one. A spellcaster with metamagic feats simply has more options when preparing spells in slots of higher level. This is a benefit for all preparing spellcasters, If it were not intended to work that way for domain spells, the rules on preparing domains spells would need to explicitly deny that capability to clerics - and they do not.