Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 11-06-07, 10:22 PM	Improved Trip, from the PHB, makes a trip attempt not provoke an attack of opportunity, grants a +4 bonus on your strength check to trip, and grants an additional attack against the subject of a successful trip. Shield Charge, from Complete Warrior, allows you to make a trip attempt against a target who you attacked with a shield bash from a charge attempt. It says "in addition to dealing damage normally, you may make a trip attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you lose, the defender does not get to try to trip you in return" (Complete Warrior, pg 105). I want to know if these two feats will stack. Will the character still gain the +4 bonus on the Strength check to Trip from Improved Trip with Shield Charge? Will the character still get the extra attack from Improved Trip with the Trip from Shield Charge? As a Player, I would like them to stack; the combo would require 4 feats to do, so it should be rewarding. As a DM, I don't think they should stack, as a Shield Charge seems like it should be considered a special attack, while Improved Trip is also a special attack. But I could go either way. I am asking this question for a player. If they don't stack, the player won't pick up Improved Trip; if they do, he will. He is playing a Fighter using shield bashes offensively and a whip as a defensive weapon (disarm, trip).
Orchomenos 11-07-07, 11:51 AM	Improved Trip is NOT a special attack, it's a feat that give you some benefit when doing Trip attempts. A Trip attempt IS a special attack. Shield Charge is a feat that allow you to make a Trip attempt with a shield bash on a charge attack. So yes, they stack. In addition to requiring four feats, a Shield Bash is not the strongest weapon around. Consider using a reach weapon like a guisarme or spiked chain. You can charge, gaining +2 on your touch attack, then trip, then make your free attack with your oponent at -4 AC (I don't think you would gain the +2 charge bonus on the free attack though). Ok, you don't have your shield bonus on AC, but your oponent is prone, at 10' from you, and you deal more damage with a 2-handed guisarme than with two shield bashes. Also, if your opponent attempts to get on his feet, you have an AoO, which is yet another attack that deals more damage than a Shield Bash.
Tordak 11-07-07, 11:58 AM	They stack. One feat gives you the special option to trip as part of a shield bash charge, the other one gives you benefits when attempting a trip; they don't cover the same ability, except the attack of opportunity part from the trip attempt. The benefits of trip attempt will apply anytime you trip someone, unless the ability or feat used specifically states otherwise.
Xeviat-DM 11-07-07, 01:28 PM	Fun. A Bashing shield, a +1 enhancement, increases its damage by 2 dice steps. So this character's heavy steel shield deals 1d8 damage, and he's specialized in shield bashing (giving him 1d8+7 at 6th level, fairly fair). He's also picked up Shield Slam, meaning he can open encounters like so: Charging shield bash: potentially dazes foe, potentially knocks foe prone, potentially triggers additional attack. The whip is for harassing other foes, and he'll be working towards whirlwind attack for insane whip goodness later.
EjoThims 11-07-07, 01:47 PM	They stack, as do similar combinations. This is why all wolf based mounts/familiars (and werewolves) should take improved trip. :D
jaelis 11-08-07, 12:09 AM	I don't see why they wouldn't stack. Your player should really put some spikes on that shield... boost it up to 2d6! 2H it if he wants, even :)
Drinkie 11-08-07, 12:33 PM	You should take Shield Specialization and Agile Shield Fighter (from PHBII). Let's you attack with your shield and a main hand weapon at -2/-2 penalties (overrides all other TWF penalties / benefits). It's basically TWF for sword and board. I made a character like this for my players to fight once. He also had Imp. Bullrush and Pushback. So he kept smacking people all over the place and bullrushing on every successful attack. They were having a really hard time flanking and fighting him on their terms.
Xeviat-DM 11-09-07, 03:14 PM	He hasn't taken Agile Shield Fighter because his Shield Slam ability requires a Charge or a Full-Round attack, and since his weapon is a whip there's no real reason to TWF with it. I told him that he'd be able to switch his attacks between the two just fine without penalty as long as he wasn't trying to gain extra attacks (not sure if this is within the rules, but it sounds reasonable to me). Since he can't make AoOs with his whip, I'm pretty sure this won't come up too much. He might switch to a kasuri-gama from the DMG to fix that, though ... AoOs would be nice.