Post/Author/DateTime	Post
harriel001 07-31-07, 12:42 PM	So the rule about making a trip attack state that you make an unarmed touch attack against your opponent that provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Trip feat. My question is, can you make that unarmed touch attack while wielding a weapon in your hand or does your hand need to be empty? Example: Aeoman the level 7 paladin has Improved Trip. He's currently wielding a bastard sword (which he's proficient with) and a heavy steel shield and engaged in melee combat with another human. Does he need to drop his weapon in order to make the trip attempt, or can he chose to not use the weapon for the attack like trying to strike his opponent with an unarmed blow with the sword still in his hand (like throwing a punch with the hilt or pommel of the sword)? Also, when I was reading the Trip rules trying to figure this out myself I noticed that when using a trip weapon to trip an opponent you don't provoke an attack of opportunity even if you don't have Improved Trip. For some reason I'd never noticed that before and had always just taken Improved Trip any time I was making a character built around a tripping weapon. Granted the +4 on the trip attempt helped, but I'd always thought I was avoiding the attacks of opportunity by taking the feat and that was my main reason for taking it alongside the attack you get to make on your opponent after a successful trip attempt.
Salla 07-31-07, 12:46 PM	I generally assume that, if you're not using a trip weapon, the trip is performed with a footsweep or other footwork (since I can't find anything that indicates that you need free hands to trip), then if you have Improved Trip, you can smack them with whatever you're holding.
harriel001 07-31-07, 12:57 PM	That was my general thought on things, but seeing as how both myself and my DM were unsure of things we figured we'd ask if there was an official ruling on things before we made our own
stoicfaux 07-31-07, 01:10 PM	Technically, it's an unarmed melee attack. You need a hand free. So you would need to drop the sword or shield. You could use a light shield instead and take a -4 off-hand penalty and use your shield hand to trip. The FAQ considers tripping more of a specialized grapple attack with the goal of grabbing your opponent and throwing them to the ground. It's a good deal more serious than a simple foot sweep: In the D&D game, a trip attack involves grabbing a foe and somehow yanking him off balance. All the Player’s Handbook weapons that allow trip attacks have some kind of hook that can snag a foe or some flexible portion that you can wrap around an opponent’s limb or body. However, it is common to consider a foot sweep as a trip attack. At the very least, you should apply a -4 to a foot sweep (since it's an off-"hand" attack.) Half strength bonus to your strength check since off-hand attacks do not get full strength bonus. And since you're on one leg, if your opponent counter-trips, you would be considered off-balance and probably incur a -4 penalty to your strength/dex check to avoid being counter tripped.
BlackFiend 07-31-07, 01:27 PM	Too simplified. God forbid, lets say you are attempting to trip a horse. You aren't simply using your free hand to push it. You are using as much of your weight as possible behind leverage to unbalance the beast. In effect, you may not use your hands at all to trip it, and that is the better course than actually trying to use your hand to grab its hoof and shove. Its not that tough for a DM to deal with tripperholics. Not enough for them to add nerfing.
Hsien 07-31-07, 01:51 PM	One thing to consider, is that with Imp Trip if the Trip is successful you get another attack but it normally has to be with the same weapon or unarmed attack that the trip was performed with. So you could not, if I understand correctly, footsweep for the trip and then use the bastard sword on the Imp Trip bonus attack, it would have to be another unarmed attack.
jaelis 07-31-07, 01:55 PM	One thing to consider, is that with Imp Trip if the Trip is successful you get another attack but it normally has to be with the same weapon or unarmed attack that the trip was performed with. So you could not, if I understand correctly, footsweep for the trip and then use the bastard sword on the Imp Trip bonus attack, it would have to be another unarmed attack. I also play that way, but the rules don't really say. Most people seem to rule the opposite.
Pentar 07-31-07, 02:06 PM	I don't think an Unarmed attack absolutely requires the use of your hands. If you consider the rules governing a Monk's unarmed strikes, it actually talks about the use of knees, elbows, feet, etc. as being part of the attacks. You can technically shove and/or apply weight on someone without letting go of your weapon/shield too. It's just a matter of balance, weight distribution and correct use of force. I don't see a trip attack as requiring you to grab someone with your hands and hurling them to the ground.
Sigfried Trent 07-31-07, 04:16 PM	However, it is common to consider a foot sweep as a trip attack. At the very least, you should apply a -4 to a foot sweep (since it's an off-"hand" attack.) Half strength bonus to your strength check since off-hand attacks do not get full strength bonus. And since you're on one leg, if your opponent counter-trips, you would be considered off-balance and probably incur a -4 penalty to your strength/dex check to avoid being counter tripped. A "foot sweep" is not in any way an off hand attack. "Off-hand" only applies when using two weapon fighting rules, and those only come into play when you are getting an (extra) attack by virtue of using an additional weapon. You can use any number of weapons you like without evoking "off-hand" attacks so long as youa re only making the number of attacks allowed by BAB or other feats unrealated to Two Weapon Fighting rules. Nothing in the improved trip feat designates your follow up attack must be with the weapon you used to trip. Whether you can trip with your foot is really up to the DM. There is nothing in the rules that difinitively states if you can or can't. I usualy rule that you can by virtue of the fact that an unarmed strike can be made with any reasonable body part (and while trip is not an unarmed strike but an unarmed attack, there are similarities), by virtue that a leg sweep is a common RL way to trip people, and finaly because a foot can be used like a "hook" which is one of the shapes ascribed to weapons that can be used to trip.
Mojo_Rat 07-31-07, 04:51 PM	Within the game mchanics if you are wielding a 2handed weapon and youw ant to do a trip attack you use that weapon. You do not have to designate it as an unarmed attack or have to have a special triping weapon. a 2handed sword works fine for tripping as far as the game mechanics go.
Bihlbo 07-31-07, 05:47 PM	Mr. Trent, I'm not picking on you, but you covered most of what's been discussed so far, so I'll use you as a sounding board. A "foot sweep" is not in any way an off hand attack. "Off-hand" only applies when using two weapon fighting rules, and those only come into play when you are getting an (extra) attack by virtue of using an additional weapon. You can use any number of weapons you like without evoking "off-hand" attacks so long as youa re only making the number of attacks allowed by BAB or other feats unrealated to Two Weapon Fighting rules. This is correct! Nothing in the improved trip feat designates your follow up attack must be with the weapon you used to trip. Though, it does suggest that the free attack is with the same weapon: "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." I think it's stretching the language of the feat to suggest that if I hadn't used the scythe for a trip attempt then I would have attacked with a hand crossbow. I made my attack with a scythe, but chose to trip instead of dealing damage. If I deal damage as if I hadn't tripped, then it would be the scythe's damage that I deal, not other available weapons. This makes the most sense to me. Whether you can trip with your foot is really up to the DM. There is nothing in the rules that difinitively states if you can or can't. I usualy rule that you can by virtue of the fact that an unarmed strike can be made with any reasonable body part (and while trip is not an unarmed strike but an unarmed attack, there are similarities) In D&D terminology, "unarmed attack" and "unarmed strike" are synonymous. Exactly the same, not just similar. This means that since the PH's section on unarmed attacks begins with: "Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:" then when the rules call for an unarmed attack or an unarmed strike, the attack is not limited to a punch - it can be a kick, a head butt, or we can assume, anything else like a shoulder slam or elbow strike. Since a trip action has to be performed with an unarmed attack or a tripping weapon, if you don't have a tripping weapon you can only trip with the weapon you always carry: an unarmed strike. This also means that we can think of unarmed attacks as something else: a tripping weapon that is attached to your character (and therefore cannot be let-go in order to avoid being counter-tripped), because the mechanics work exactly the same.
jaelis 07-31-07, 06:12 PM	Within the game mchanics if you are wielding a 2handed weapon and youw ant to do a trip attack you use that weapon. You do not have to designate it as an unarmed attack or have to have a special triping weapon. a 2handed sword works fine for tripping as far as the game mechanics go. That is not correct. You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. blah blah blah Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
harriel001 07-31-07, 06:23 PM	so it seems to go like this: You can trip with either an unarmed attack or a tripping weapon. Since you can always make an unarmed attack, even if you're holding other things, you can always attempt to Trip an opponent. If you're using a tripping weapon to make the attack you get to use any bonuses that weapon provides to you for the touch attack (magic enhancements, weapon focus feats, etc...), if you don't have a tripping weapon in hand, then you can still make trip attacks, but only using your unarmed strike and since you can't drop your body in the case that you fail the attempt your opponent gets to try and trip you in return and there's nothing you can do about it but pray for a good roll against him/her/it. That's pretty much what my DM and I were thinking, just wanted to come here for some extra insight. Thanks guys :) Enjoy your debate, cause I got what i came for and it's good enough for my DM and I. You rule mongers can go fight it out now :D
Kouk 07-31-07, 07:45 PM	so it seems to go like this: You can trip with either an unarmed attack or a tripping weapon. Since you can always make an unarmed attack, even if you're holding other things, you can always attempt to Trip an opponent. If you're using a tripping weapon to make the attack you get to use any bonuses that weapon provides to you for the touch attack (magic enhancements, weapon focus feats, etc...), if you don't have a tripping weapon in hand, then you can still make trip attacks, but only using your unarmed strike and since you can't drop your body in the case that you fail the attempt your opponent gets to try and trip you in return and there's nothing you can do about it but pray for a good roll against him/her/it. That's pretty much what my DM and I were thinking, just wanted to come here for some extra insight. Thanks guys :) Enjoy your debate, cause I got what i came for and it's good enough for my DM and I. You rule mongers can go fight it out now :D That's basically how I rule it also. Requiring a free hand or a special weapon when you already have the special training (the Improved Trip feat that is) seems excessive, and much less "cool" and "heroic fantasy". Anyway, it's not like being able to attempt a Trip with your leg is going to be much help against a Storm Giant or anything large and/or having 4 legs.
runestar 07-31-07, 09:52 PM	One thing to consider, is that with Imp Trip if the Trip is successful you get another attack but it normally has to be with the same weapon or unarmed attack that the trip was performed with. So you could not, if I understand correctly, footsweep for the trip and then use the bastard sword on the Imp Trip bonus attack, it would have to be another unarmed attack. Not necessarily, I think. The wording of improved trip is somewhat ambiguous, I admit, but I think it simply states that you simply get back the attack you used for tripping, but you do not have to use that attack on the same weapon used for tripping, since an attack is just an attack, so to speak.:)
Sigfried Trent 08-01-07, 01:00 PM	I think it's stretching the language of the feat to suggest that if I hadn't used the scythe for a trip attempt then I would have attacked with a hand crossbow. I made my attack with a scythe, but chose to trip instead of dealing damage. If I deal damage as if I hadn't tripped, then it would be the scythe's damage that I deal, not other available weapons. This makes the most sense to me. There was a clear statement in the FAQ that the purpose of that language was to indicate you use the same BAB for the follow up attack, and that's it. For instance you can not use true strike on both the trip and the follow up even though it is "as if you hadn't..." Since it is unclear as worded, and since it was clarified as intending only to speak to BAB issues.. I think its reasonable to say you can make the follow up attack any way you like except for using an "off-hand" attack if the trip was made "main hand" and fice versa (this only applies while TWF is in use) In D&D terminology, "unarmed attack" and "unarmed strike" are synonymous. Exactly the same, not just similar. This means that since the PH's section on unarmed attacks begins with: "Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:" then when the rules call for an unarmed attack or an unarmed strike, the attack is not limited to a punch - it can be a kick, a head butt, or we can assume, anything else like a shoulder slam or elbow strike. Since a trip action has to be performed with an unarmed attack or a tripping weapon, if you don't have a tripping weapon you can only trip with the weapon you always carry: an unarmed strike.. You have convinced me on this account, that is quite difinitive.
Egres 08-01-07, 01:16 PM	In D&D terminology, "unarmed attack" and "unarmed strike" are synonymous. Exactly the same, not just similar. Is a claw an unarmed strike?
Mojo_Rat 08-01-07, 01:26 PM	That is not correct. It seems you are correct Sir!. I never saw the 'unarmed' part of that but I guess that makes sense. It also precludes all those penalties for making an unarmed attack hat some of the initial posters were suggesting.
Kouk 08-01-07, 02:13 PM	Is a claw an unarmed strike? A 'Claw' is a form of natural weapon, and so it is not an unarmed strike. You can find more about Natural Weapons at this link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons
natzero 08-01-07, 09:24 PM	ok heres one for ya, im rolling a kobold fight atm that will have imp trip. could i conceivably make a trip with my weapon even if its not listed in phb as a trip weapon, assuming of course it would make sense. i will be using a great pick which as far as i know has quite the crescent shaped end. i cant see any reason why a large (1d8 for small) 2h weapon shaped enough like a scythe or halberd or even a chain
jaelis 08-01-07, 11:15 PM	could i conceivably make a trip with my weapon even if its not listed in phb as a trip weapon, assuming of course it would make sense. Not according to the rules. Of course, you can do anything you can talk your DM into. If I were the DM, I'd give you this: Hooked pick: 2H martial 18 gp 1d6/2d4 x4 10 lbs piercing This heavy pick has a relatively long, curved head, which allows it to be used for tripping.
Kouk 08-02-07, 12:52 AM	ok heres one for ya, im rolling a kobold fight atm that will have imp trip. could i conceivably make a trip with my weapon even if its not listed in phb as a trip weapon, assuming of course it would make sense. i will be using a great pick which as far as i know has quite the crescent shaped end. i cant see any reason why a large (1d8 for small) 2h weapon shaped enough like a scythe or halberd or even a chain You would have to talk the DM into it. You could use a Gnomish Hook Hammer though, you can use that one handed apparently. Also, check this link if you are playing a kobold:http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
ToastedAmphibian 08-02-07, 01:28 AM	Does anyone know why the Heavy Poleaxe listed in complete warrior isnt a Trip Weapon? A Poleaxe, by definition, has a special hook on the back side specifically designed to pull people down/off of horses and to pull shields out of the way.
natzero 08-02-07, 09:08 AM	hmm that hooked pick is kinda cool, but where can i find it? also its says 1d6/2d4 is that dmg for small/medium or is it a double weapon? thanks although i can still picture my kobold with a great pick 1d8. 20/x4 7 lb. its pretty nice, wait till i post my kobold fighter, 7th level, ecl of 1. he will be the exception to kobold fighter rules
jaelis 08-02-07, 09:11 AM	hmm that hooked pick is kinda cool, but where can i find it? It's the stats of a scythe, reflavored to what you want. also its says 1d6/2d4 is that dmg for small/medium or is it a double weapon? Small/medium, sorry. 1d8/2d6 would be fine as an exotic.
natzero 08-02-07, 09:39 AM	wait so its an exotic weapon? or martial? the reason i went great pick is cause wizards site under kobold variant it says kobold can treat greatpick as martial and im a fighter so yay if that hooked one is martial i may go for it. although i still think the greatpick just by nature of its shape would fill in the blank just fine for trip attacks. also the "tripping" weapons actually give bonuses to tripping right?
jaelis 08-02-07, 11:01 AM	The hooked pick I stat'd for you is balanced as a martial weapon. also the "tripping" weapons actually give bonuses to tripping right? No, they just allow you to trip at all.
natzero 08-02-07, 11:26 AM	ok heres my next point, why cant i (in all seriousness) make a trip attack with a 2h pick (think bout the size as a kama or sickle on the end point) while i could make one with a gnome hooked hammer which is actually smaller than a light pick. they look exactly the same and function the same with the piercing end, but the gnome hooked hammer has an awkward hammer blud end as well (making it exotic) where as the light pick is martial. ok now that that is said a great pick is much larger than either of them and the pick end has the right shape and size. it should meet the prereqs to be a trip weapon, especially if the gnome hammer and the shorter kama/sickle weapons can be used. is it because kobolds can use it as martial? they afraid kobold fighters would own all if they could trip with a weapon that in all circumstances would work better than some of the trip weapons? thats wut it is huh? xenophobic rule makers scared of kobolds. /sigh :weep:
tafkamhokie 08-02-07, 12:57 PM	Based on my study of martial arts, I learned of three ways to knock someone off their feet: One is a straightforward leg sweep. Your hands are not involved in this maneuver. You swing your leg at their foot fast and hard and just knock them down that way. One is a combination maneuver where you stop their feet from moving while pushing on their upper body. Here, you either hook your foot behind theirs or plant your leg behind their knee or something similar. Then you push their upper body. With their feet blocked, they cannot stumble backwards so they just fall down. In this case, the push is usually done with a forearm or elbow. Even if it is done with the hand, you don't need to grab them to execute the maneuver. In D&D terms, you could execute either of those maneuvers while carrying a weapon. You still make an unarmed touch attack (with your foot/leg) to make sure they do not dodge your attack. Then you follow it with the opposed strength check to knock them down. The last one is where you grab them and, either using leverage, momentum, or pure strength, throw them to the ground. In D&D terms, this is probably closer to a grapple check than a true trip attempt. The Rules of the Game article has suggestions for grappling someone and throwing them down prone, and that is a lot closer to what you are doing here than a simple trip attempt. This one (just like any grapple attempt) would require at least one free hand since you do actually have to grab hold of them. Based on all that, I see no reason why you couldn't sweep the leg then follow a successful attempt with a weapon attack. You most definitely do not need to grab your target with an open hand to trip them.
natzero 08-02-07, 01:02 PM	i wouldnt even say its thats difficult (well thought out post btw tho) my weapon has the size and shape that would make it possible to count for the trip right? in logic i could sweep a pick at there legs and knock them down, same as leg sweep and for a kobold such as my fighter his great pick is easily as long as his legs. (big ol 2h) could swing weapon at feet then double up for an overhead downward attack to use the feat properly ;p:w00t:
Sigfried Trent 08-02-07, 02:43 PM	Many combat picks are actualy straight, but... Even though it doesn't allow it in the rules as a DM I would probably let someone trip wtih a pick. It seems fairly logical and follows the description of what weapon qualities are involved in allowing a weapon to trip. And balance wise a pick is not a statisticly awesome weapon except for coup-de-grace and the like.