Improved two weapon fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved two weapon fighting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
monai75
02-04-08, 02:13 AM I have a player who has just reached his 6th level of ranger. And he wants to know if now, since he gets two attacks as a standard action, can he effectivly make 4 attacks each round? I know that can not be right, but I am having some trouble with the wording of these feats. He normally attacks with a longsword in his main hand, and a club in he off hand. What are the exact mechanics of this and how many attacks does he get in a round? As a standard action, and as a full-round action? Help please I need this figured out by our next session. I hate when I do not understand something so simple that I know everyone else probably gets! Thanks and try not to be too mean all you rule knowing fan boys.
Egres
02-04-08, 03:14 AM since he gets two attacks as a standard action
He only gets one attack as a standard action.

From the SRD:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

can he effectivly make 4 attacks each round?
Yes, he can.
He normally attacks with a longsword in his main hand, and a club in he off hand. What are the exact mechanics of this and how many attacks does he get in a round? As a standard action, and as a full-round action?

As a standard action, as said before, he can only make one attack.

As a full round action he can make 4 attacks, 2 with the long sword with an attack bonus of +4/-1, and 2 with the club, with the same attack bonus.

(the +4/-1 is due to the -2 penalty of two weapon fighting: in other words he's using the ordinary attack bonus +6/+1 for each of his weapons, but with a -2 penalty on all of his attacks).

Note that the club isn't a light weapon, so the above penalty is increased to -4.

Your friend should choose a lighter weapon to two weapon fight with.

Hope this helps.
Zog_Jakome
02-04-08, 04:09 AM to over come the light weapon problem I suggest oversized to weapon fighting feat which treats one-handed weapon as a light weapon.

the above post is correct you only get 1 attack as a standard action and 4 attacks with two-weapon fighting using the full attack action.
Egres
02-04-08, 04:53 PM If your friend wants to double attack as a standard action suggest him to take the Dual Strike feat, in the Complete Adventurer.
Cartigan
02-04-08, 06:20 PM He only gets one attack as a standard action.

From the SRD:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
We had a 10 minute discussion on this last night because I was the only one that actually knew those were the rules so we all just decided we would stop arguing and do it the wrong way the DM had been.
Egres
02-05-08, 03:00 AM We had a 10 minute discussion on this last night because I was the only one that actually knew those were the rules so we all just decided we would stop arguing and do it the wrong way the DM had been.

May I ask you why you didn't show the PHB to your buddies?
Cartigan
02-05-08, 12:07 PM May I ask you why you didn't show the PHB to your buddies?
I did but that's always how he played it so we had to go with that.
StevenO
02-05-08, 07:09 PM I did but that's always how he played it so we had to go with that.
And people sometimes wonder why two-weapon fighting can seem so broken.

With few, specific exception, a Standard action can only be used for a single attack. If I'm remember Dual Strike correctly (could be another feat) it is still only a single that uses damage from both weapons but only strikes as accurately as the poorest one.
monai75
02-06-08, 02:08 AM What?
Jvance420
02-06-08, 02:38 AM Sorta reltated, I was curious how these extra attacks work with sneak attack. Is it sneak with the two main hand attacks and none of the off hand attacks or is it still only on the first hit?
zare
02-06-08, 02:52 AM OK, I'm interested in clearing this up, too.
So, if Improved Two Weapon Fighting says you can take an extra attack with your offhand weapon but at a -5 penalty, and the BAB for a sixth level ranger is 6/1 would a ranger's attack look like this:

Main Hand Weapon: 6/1
Off Hand Weapon: 6/-4

(And then apply the -2 penalty everywhere as normal for TWF)

I just want to make sure I understand this.
mplindustries
02-06-08, 03:17 AM Sorta reltated, I was curious how these extra attacks work with sneak attack. Is it sneak with the two main hand attacks and none of the off hand attacks or is it still only on the first hit?

If you hit an opponent denied their dex bonus, or you are flanking them, you add sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter how many times you do it. You can deal sneak attack damage with your main hand, your off-hand, with an unarmed attack, a bite if you have it, even a spell that requires an attack roll. Anything and everything that hits an opponent while your sneak attack conditions are met deal extra damage. So, if you are flanking someone, and you have improved two weapon fighting, you can deal full sneak attack damage on each of the four attacks, assuming you actually hit.

OK, I'm interested in clearing this up, too.
So, if Improved Two Weapon Fighting says you can take an extra attack with your offhand weapon but at a -5 penalty, and the BAB for a sixth level ranger is 6/1 would a ranger's attack look like this:

Main Hand Weapon: 6/1
Off Hand Weapon: 6/-4

(And then apply the -2 penalty everywhere as normal for TWF)

I just want to make sure I understand this.

No, the wording of the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat is stupid and is designed to play off your Base Attack Bonus, not your iterative attacks.

Here's the key: Your base attack bonus as a level 6 ranger is +6, not +6/+1 as is shown in the chart. Its only listed as +6/+1 to remind you of iterative attacks.

So, when you apply the -5 penalty for your second off-hand attack, you apply it to your Base Attack Bonus, not your second iterative attack.

So, if you use two short swords and you have 14 strength, your attack bonuses will be:

+6/+6/+1/+1 (and yes, this includes the -2 penalty for twf)

Since the character you mentioned was actually using a longsword and a club, he faces a higher penalty for using a one-handed weapon in his off-hand (he'd be much better off using a shortsword or even a light mace). So, with the -4 penalty for two-weapon fighting with one-handed weapons, and still assuming 14 strength, he'd have:
Longsword +4/-1
Club +4/-1
Jvance420
02-06-08, 03:48 AM If you hit an opponent denied their dex bonus, or you are flanking them, you add sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter how many times you do it. You can deal sneak attack damage with your main hand, your off-hand, with an unarmed attack, a bite if you have it, even a spell that requires an attack roll. Anything and everything that hits an opponent while your sneak attack conditions are met deal extra damage. So, if you are flanking someone, and you have improved two weapon fighting, you can deal full sneak attack damage on each of the four attacks, assuming you actually hit.

What about sneaking, TWF and a spring attack?
mplindustries
02-06-08, 04:44 AM What about sneaking, TWF and a spring attack?

TWF doesn't help spring attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) at all.
"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

Note that it does not say "using the full attack action," it says simply "the attack action." That means one single attack only. You can't even use standard actions that involve an attack roll, such as using a strike from the Tome of Battle or Dual Strike from Complete Adventurer.

Additionally, it would be extremely difficult to get sneak attack damage consistantly when using spring attack. If you attack from a position in which you are flanking, then obviously, yes it applies. If you attack on the surprise round or the first round of combat before your opponent acted, then again, yes, it applies. However, to actually stay hidden (and thus have them treated as if you were invisible), you'd need to make an incredibly difficult Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) check.

"You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

So, as long as you keep your total movement to a minimum, it isn't too hard to stay hidden on the way to your target and get the Sneak Attack damage on this round. But once you attack him, he's aware of you and you'd need to make a check with a -20 (with an additional -5 if you moved more than half your speed) to stay hidden after the attack.

Depending on the DM, you may also incur additional penalties and possibly not even be allowed to try it if you didn't have cover or concealment available on the way to the target.
Jvance420
02-06-08, 05:04 AM Not trying to be argumentative, but why would ToB maneuvers not work with spring attack. Most of them say to make a single melee attack, which is all SA allows.
mplindustries
02-06-08, 06:15 AM Not trying to be argumentative, but why would ToB maneuvers not work with spring attack. Most of them say to make a single melee attack, which is all SA allows.

Most say to make a single melee attack...as part of the maneuver. Most require a standard action. Now, during that standard action, most of them also use a single melee attack. Of course, so do many spells, such as Vampiric Touch. Do you think you're allowed to use a touch spell during spring attack?

(By the way, the answer is no, if you actually couldn't answer that.)

Go back to the Tome of Battle and see what Initiation Action your chosen manuevers use. Do any of them say "attack action?" If not, then they don't work with Spring Attack. Its that simple (Oh, and to clarify, I am talking about strikes. Boosts and stances can still obviously be used during a spring attack).

This is such a common question I can't believe its not covered somewhere official.
Jvance420
02-06-08, 07:43 AM Well, I am an extreme noob. I've been playing for about 5 minutes so, no, I did not knw you couldn't use a touch spell with a spring attack, but I do now lol. Matter of fact, I couldn't tell you a thing about a spell caster period.

But back to this, I see what you mean now. I haven't checked them all, but it looks like strikes are standards. I also read up on spring attack again, and it says as part of a attack action, so does this mean you still get a move on top of the move attack move? (I was told you only get your base movement to attack ie 30 ft, you have to move, attack, move within 30 ft and thats your turn)

But, at the end of the day, if you are going the TWF route, you should just plan on full attacking to get the max benefit of the feat chain?

One last thing, whats your opinion on the maneuvers and attacking? Is a full attack possible with a maneuver or not? I've heard both sides on this and just curious for another opinion.
Zog_Jakome
02-06-08, 03:16 PM treat maneuvers like spells since you know nothing about spells I will tell you the short answer... depends on what the maneuver is.

many maneuvers is a standard action to initiate and depending on what the maneuver is, you make actions based on that maneuver. for instance steel wind allows you to make one attack on each of two creatures as a standard action.

other maneuvers require a full round action to initiate, many times these maneuvers involves one huge attack or a full attack. for instance flashing sun lets you make a full attack action but you also get an extra attack on the end.

as with spring attack. it allows you to make a single attack in between a move action. since a single attack is a standard action I really don't see why you can't initiate a standard maneuver in the middle of a move action with spring attack, and I have been playing for a really long time. with spells you can cast a touch spell, move up then touch them. with spring attack it would allow you to move back without provoking attacks of opportunity. if it was a ranged spell you could not do it, you would need shot on the run for that.

I am a DM and I would allow standard action attacks in the middle of a move, that's the point of spring attack.
mplindustries
02-06-08, 03:27 PM But back to this, I see what you mean now. I haven't checked them all, but it looks like strikes are standards. I also read up on spring attack again, and it says as part of a attack action, so does this mean you still get a move on top of the move attack move? (I was told you only get your base movement to attack ie 30 ft, you have to move, attack, move within 30 ft and thats your turn)
Nice question. Now you're thinking like a rules lawyer! :D

I want to just quickly correct your wording, though, and hopefully make it clear.

Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack): "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

It is unfortunately not "as part of an attack action you can..." it is "when using the attack action you can..." This means that you still have to spend a move action to actually move, you are just allowed to spread the movement out before and after the attack.

But, at the end of the day, if you are going the TWF route, you should just plan on full attacking to get the max benefit of the feat chain?

Yes.

One last thing, whats your opinion on the maneuvers and attacking? Is a full attack possible with a maneuver or not? I've heard both sides on this and just curious for another opinion.

Whatever the manuever says is what you do. If the manuever says that you can make a full attack, then you can. If it only mentions one attack, then thats all you get. There are a few Full Round Action Strikes that allow a full attack, but the only Standard action strikes that I know of that allow more than one attack are Wolf Fang Strike (and its not a full attack, just two attacks) and the Steel Wind tree of strikes (which are also not full attacks, just a specific number of attacks against multiple opponents).

So in general, the fact (not opinion) is that Standard Action strikes take up a standard action and so after making the single attack they allow, you still have a move action left. Thats it. You absolutely cannot insert a Standard Action Strike into a full attack.

I am a DM and I would allow standard action attacks in the middle of a move, that's the point of spring attack.
And despite what individual DM's would and would not allow, you can't by RAW, use a standard action during a spring attack. Spring attack only allows one single type of action: an attack action. So, sure you can probably convince your DM of anything, but its not how its written to work.
Zog_Jakome
02-07-08, 03:00 AM And despite what individual DM's would and would not allow, you can't by RAW, use a standard action during a spring attack. Spring attack only allows one single type of action: an attack action. So, sure you can probably convince your DM of anything, but its not how its written to work.

*checks the FAQ*

yup you're right no standard actions in the middle of a spring attack.

it doesn't matter anyway none of my players ever has spring attack and when I do as a player I never have maneuvers or spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monai75 02-04-08, 02:13 AM	I have a player who has just reached his 6th level of ranger. And he wants to know if now, since he gets two attacks as a standard action, can he effectivly make 4 attacks each round? I know that can not be right, but I am having some trouble with the wording of these feats. He normally attacks with a longsword in his main hand, and a club in he off hand. What are the exact mechanics of this and how many attacks does he get in a round? As a standard action, and as a full-round action? Help please I need this figured out by our next session. I hate when I do not understand something so simple that I know everyone else probably gets! Thanks and try not to be too mean all you rule knowing fan boys.
Egres 02-04-08, 03:14 AM	since he gets two attacks as a standard action He only gets one attack as a standard action. From the SRD: Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. can he effectivly make 4 attacks each round? Yes, he can. He normally attacks with a longsword in his main hand, and a club in he off hand. What are the exact mechanics of this and how many attacks does he get in a round? As a standard action, and as a full-round action? As a standard action, as said before, he can only make one attack. As a full round action he can make 4 attacks, 2 with the long sword with an attack bonus of +4/-1, and 2 with the club, with the same attack bonus. (the +4/-1 is due to the -2 penalty of two weapon fighting: in other words he's using the ordinary attack bonus +6/+1 for each of his weapons, but with a -2 penalty on all of his attacks). Note that the club isn't a light weapon, so the above penalty is increased to -4. Your friend should choose a lighter weapon to two weapon fight with. Hope this helps.
Zog_Jakome 02-04-08, 04:09 AM	to over come the light weapon problem I suggest oversized to weapon fighting feat which treats one-handed weapon as a light weapon. the above post is correct you only get 1 attack as a standard action and 4 attacks with two-weapon fighting using the full attack action.
Egres 02-04-08, 04:53 PM	If your friend wants to double attack as a standard action suggest him to take the Dual Strike feat, in the Complete Adventurer.
Cartigan 02-04-08, 06:20 PM	He only gets one attack as a standard action. From the SRD: Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. We had a 10 minute discussion on this last night because I was the only one that actually knew those were the rules so we all just decided we would stop arguing and do it the wrong way the DM had been.
Egres 02-05-08, 03:00 AM	We had a 10 minute discussion on this last night because I was the only one that actually knew those were the rules so we all just decided we would stop arguing and do it the wrong way the DM had been. May I ask you why you didn't show the PHB to your buddies?
Cartigan 02-05-08, 12:07 PM	May I ask you why you didn't show the PHB to your buddies? I did but that's always how he played it so we had to go with that.
StevenO 02-05-08, 07:09 PM	I did but that's always how he played it so we had to go with that. And people sometimes wonder why two-weapon fighting can seem so broken. With few, specific exception, a Standard action can only be used for a single attack. If I'm remember Dual Strike correctly (could be another feat) it is still only a single that uses damage from both weapons but only strikes as accurately as the poorest one.
monai75 02-06-08, 02:08 AM	What?
Jvance420 02-06-08, 02:38 AM	Sorta reltated, I was curious how these extra attacks work with sneak attack. Is it sneak with the two main hand attacks and none of the off hand attacks or is it still only on the first hit?
zare 02-06-08, 02:52 AM	OK, I'm interested in clearing this up, too. So, if Improved Two Weapon Fighting says you can take an extra attack with your offhand weapon but at a -5 penalty, and the BAB for a sixth level ranger is 6/1 would a ranger's attack look like this: Main Hand Weapon: 6/1 Off Hand Weapon: 6/-4 (And then apply the -2 penalty everywhere as normal for TWF) I just want to make sure I understand this.
mplindustries 02-06-08, 03:17 AM	Sorta reltated, I was curious how these extra attacks work with sneak attack. Is it sneak with the two main hand attacks and none of the off hand attacks or is it still only on the first hit? If you hit an opponent denied their dex bonus, or you are flanking them, you add sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter how many times you do it. You can deal sneak attack damage with your main hand, your off-hand, with an unarmed attack, a bite if you have it, even a spell that requires an attack roll. Anything and everything that hits an opponent while your sneak attack conditions are met deal extra damage. So, if you are flanking someone, and you have improved two weapon fighting, you can deal full sneak attack damage on each of the four attacks, assuming you actually hit. OK, I'm interested in clearing this up, too. So, if Improved Two Weapon Fighting says you can take an extra attack with your offhand weapon but at a -5 penalty, and the BAB for a sixth level ranger is 6/1 would a ranger's attack look like this: Main Hand Weapon: 6/1 Off Hand Weapon: 6/-4 (And then apply the -2 penalty everywhere as normal for TWF) I just want to make sure I understand this. No, the wording of the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat is stupid and is designed to play off your Base Attack Bonus, not your iterative attacks. Here's the key: Your base attack bonus as a level 6 ranger is +6, not +6/+1 as is shown in the chart. Its only listed as +6/+1 to remind you of iterative attacks. So, when you apply the -5 penalty for your second off-hand attack, you apply it to your Base Attack Bonus, not your second iterative attack. So, if you use two short swords and you have 14 strength, your attack bonuses will be: +6/+6/+1/+1 (and yes, this includes the -2 penalty for twf) Since the character you mentioned was actually using a longsword and a club, he faces a higher penalty for using a one-handed weapon in his off-hand (he'd be much better off using a shortsword or even a light mace). So, with the -4 penalty for two-weapon fighting with one-handed weapons, and still assuming 14 strength, he'd have: Longsword +4/-1 Club +4/-1
Jvance420 02-06-08, 03:48 AM	If you hit an opponent denied their dex bonus, or you are flanking them, you add sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter how many times you do it. You can deal sneak attack damage with your main hand, your off-hand, with an unarmed attack, a bite if you have it, even a spell that requires an attack roll. Anything and everything that hits an opponent while your sneak attack conditions are met deal extra damage. So, if you are flanking someone, and you have improved two weapon fighting, you can deal full sneak attack damage on each of the four attacks, assuming you actually hit. What about sneaking, TWF and a spring attack?
mplindustries 02-06-08, 04:44 AM	What about sneaking, TWF and a spring attack? TWF doesn't help spring attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) at all. "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." Note that it does not say "using the full attack action," it says simply "the attack action." That means one single attack only. You can't even use standard actions that involve an attack roll, such as using a strike from the Tome of Battle or Dual Strike from Complete Adventurer. Additionally, it would be extremely difficult to get sneak attack damage consistantly when using spring attack. If you attack from a position in which you are flanking, then obviously, yes it applies. If you attack on the surprise round or the first round of combat before your opponent acted, then again, yes, it applies. However, to actually stay hidden (and thus have them treated as if you were invisible), you'd need to make an incredibly difficult Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) check. "You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." So, as long as you keep your total movement to a minimum, it isn't too hard to stay hidden on the way to your target and get the Sneak Attack damage on this round. But once you attack him, he's aware of you and you'd need to make a check with a -20 (with an additional -5 if you moved more than half your speed) to stay hidden after the attack. Depending on the DM, you may also incur additional penalties and possibly not even be allowed to try it if you didn't have cover or concealment available on the way to the target.
Jvance420 02-06-08, 05:04 AM	Not trying to be argumentative, but why would ToB maneuvers not work with spring attack. Most of them say to make a single melee attack, which is all SA allows.
mplindustries 02-06-08, 06:15 AM	Not trying to be argumentative, but why would ToB maneuvers not work with spring attack. Most of them say to make a single melee attack, which is all SA allows. Most say to make a single melee attack...as part of the maneuver. Most require a standard action. Now, during that standard action, most of them also use a single melee attack. Of course, so do many spells, such as Vampiric Touch. Do you think you're allowed to use a touch spell during spring attack? (By the way, the answer is no, if you actually couldn't answer that.) Go back to the Tome of Battle and see what Initiation Action your chosen manuevers use. Do any of them say "attack action?" If not, then they don't work with Spring Attack. Its that simple (Oh, and to clarify, I am talking about strikes. Boosts and stances can still obviously be used during a spring attack). This is such a common question I can't believe its not covered somewhere official.
Jvance420 02-06-08, 07:43 AM	Well, I am an extreme noob. I've been playing for about 5 minutes so, no, I did not knw you couldn't use a touch spell with a spring attack, but I do now lol. Matter of fact, I couldn't tell you a thing about a spell caster period. But back to this, I see what you mean now. I haven't checked them all, but it looks like strikes are standards. I also read up on spring attack again, and it says as part of a attack action, so does this mean you still get a move on top of the move attack move? (I was told you only get your base movement to attack ie 30 ft, you have to move, attack, move within 30 ft and thats your turn) But, at the end of the day, if you are going the TWF route, you should just plan on full attacking to get the max benefit of the feat chain? One last thing, whats your opinion on the maneuvers and attacking? Is a full attack possible with a maneuver or not? I've heard both sides on this and just curious for another opinion.
Zog_Jakome 02-06-08, 03:16 PM	treat maneuvers like spells since you know nothing about spells I will tell you the short answer... depends on what the maneuver is. many maneuvers is a standard action to initiate and depending on what the maneuver is, you make actions based on that maneuver. for instance steel wind allows you to make one attack on each of two creatures as a standard action. other maneuvers require a full round action to initiate, many times these maneuvers involves one huge attack or a full attack. for instance flashing sun lets you make a full attack action but you also get an extra attack on the end. as with spring attack. it allows you to make a single attack in between a move action. since a single attack is a standard action I really don't see why you can't initiate a standard maneuver in the middle of a move action with spring attack, and I have been playing for a really long time. with spells you can cast a touch spell, move up then touch them. with spring attack it would allow you to move back without provoking attacks of opportunity. if it was a ranged spell you could not do it, you would need shot on the run for that. I am a DM and I would allow standard action attacks in the middle of a move, that's the point of spring attack.
mplindustries 02-06-08, 03:27 PM	But back to this, I see what you mean now. I haven't checked them all, but it looks like strikes are standards. I also read up on spring attack again, and it says as part of a attack action, so does this mean you still get a move on top of the move attack move? (I was told you only get your base movement to attack ie 30 ft, you have to move, attack, move within 30 ft and thats your turn) Nice question. Now you're thinking like a rules lawyer! :D I want to just quickly correct your wording, though, and hopefully make it clear. Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack): "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." It is unfortunately not "as part of an attack action you can..." it is "when using the attack action you can..." This means that you still have to spend a move action to actually move, you are just allowed to spread the movement out before and after the attack. But, at the end of the day, if you are going the TWF route, you should just plan on full attacking to get the max benefit of the feat chain? Yes. One last thing, whats your opinion on the maneuvers and attacking? Is a full attack possible with a maneuver or not? I've heard both sides on this and just curious for another opinion. Whatever the manuever says is what you do. If the manuever says that you can make a full attack, then you can. If it only mentions one attack, then thats all you get. There are a few Full Round Action Strikes that allow a full attack, but the only Standard action strikes that I know of that allow more than one attack are Wolf Fang Strike (and its not a full attack, just two attacks) and the Steel Wind tree of strikes (which are also not full attacks, just a specific number of attacks against multiple opponents). So in general, the fact (not opinion) is that Standard Action strikes take up a standard action and so after making the single attack they allow, you still have a move action left. Thats it. You absolutely cannot insert a Standard Action Strike into a full attack. I am a DM and I would allow standard action attacks in the middle of a move, that's the point of spring attack. And despite what individual DM's would and would not allow, you can't by RAW, use a standard action during a spring attack. Spring attack only allows one single type of action: an attack action. So, sure you can probably convince your DM of anything, but its not how its written to work.
Zog_Jakome 02-07-08, 03:00 AM	And despite what individual DM's would and would not allow, you can't by RAW, use a standard action during a spring attack. Spring attack only allows one single type of action: an attack action. So, sure you can probably convince your DM of anything, but its not how its written to work. checks the FAQ yup you're right no standard actions in the middle of a spring attack. it doesn't matter anyway none of my players ever has spring attack and when I do as a player I never have maneuvers or spells.