Improved Unarmed Strike Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Unarmed Strike Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kazgoth
03-26-07, 02:33 PM Was wondering if a non-monk takes this, is the damage still only 1-3 for med. creatures? I wouldn't expect it to scale like a monk, but I would think someone with IUS should do 1-4 or perhaps even 1-6. Seems like where I've been looking it just says they don't provoke AoO's and can deal lethal, which is all well and good, but if there is a change to damage I haven't seen it.
tarkin
03-26-07, 02:37 PM No change to damage.

It is one of the reasons so few non-monks take it.
Toptomcat
03-26-07, 03:31 PM There's a separate feat with IUS in the pre-reqs, Superior Unarmed Strike, available in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. It gives non-monks an unarmed damage progression, though not one as strong as theirs.
malignor
03-26-07, 03:44 PM You can also take up Improved Natural Attack, listed in the Monster Manual, to increase your unarmed strikes to 1d4.

For example, if you want to be a slugger-fighter, take IUStrike, INAttack, and Weapon Spec - Unarmed. at 4th level, you can be doing 1d4+2, plus strength... the same average damage as 1d8+strength. Greater Weapon Spec bumps it up to 1d4+4, which is the same average as 1d12 (5-8 or 1-12, both average out at 6.5 damage per hit).

So to get the same average damage output as 1d12 requires 6 feats (IUStrike, INAttack, WFocus, WSpec, GWFocus, GWSpec). This is all SRD, mind you, and I bet there are better goodies out there.

Of course the best thing about Improved Unarmed Strike is it opens the door for Improved Grapple.
Toptomcat
03-26-07, 04:00 PM And the BO9S feat synergizes with all of those, making an unarmed Fighter fairly plausible, if not really powerful.
SALDAR
03-26-07, 07:23 PM You can also take up Improved Natural Attack, listed in the Monster Manual, to increase your unarmed strikes to 1d4.
This doesn't work. The monk's Unarmed Strike class feature is considered a natural weapon for such feats but IUS does not grant this consideration. Just because you have IUS doesn't mean your unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for such feats. If you are not a monk then you actually need a natural weapon to gain INA. Unarmed strike is not a natural weapon.
enygmatic_me
03-26-07, 07:28 PM With the advent of Superior Unarmed Strike and the fact that fighters don't suffer from MAD a fighter actually makes a better unarmed combatant then a monk now.
starfire311
03-26-07, 07:59 PM And the BO9S feat synergizes with all of those, making an unarmed Fighter fairly plausible, if not really powerful.
yep, try this on for size we had a " unarmed brawler in my game"

human fighter 8/monk2

feats(something like this, cant remember the exact order)
Weapon focus(Unarmed strike), Improved natural attack, Improved Grapple, Combat reflexes, Superior Unarmed Strike, Martial Study(shadow Hand-Cloak of Deception), Versatile Unarmed Strike, Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)
Shadow Blade, Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike), Melee Weapon Mastery(bludgeoning), Greater Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)

He has Strength 18, Dex 18 and a monks belt(this includes stat bumps and +2 strength on his belt and +4 dex gloves), +1 amulet of mighty fists

He has +9 BAB,
giving Unarmed strike of +18, 2D8+13+2D6(SA) or unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 2D8+13+2D6(SA)

Yes I know this is by no means broken, but I thought it was pretty cool
enygmatic_me
03-26-07, 08:25 PM yep, try this on for size we had a " unarmed brawler in my game"

human fighter 8/monk2

feats(something like this, cant remember the exact order)
Weapon focus(Unarmed strike), Improved natural attack, Improved Grapple, Combat reflexes, Superior Unarmed Strike, Martial Study(shadow Hand-Cloak of Deception), Versatile Unarmed Strike, Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)
Shadow Blade, Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike), Melee Weapon Mastery(bludgeoning), Greater Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)

He has Strength 18, Dex 18 and a monks belt(this includes stat bumps and +2 strength on his belt and +4 dex gloves), +1 amulet of mighty fists

He has +9 BAB,
giving Unarmed strike of +18, 2D8+13+2D6(SA) or unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 2D8+13+2D6(SA)

Yes I know this is by no means broken, but I thought it was pretty cool

Out of curiosity, why monk 2?
Toptomcat
03-26-07, 08:37 PM +1 BAB, +3 saves, evasion, and a bonus feat? It's a good breakpoint.
Ranger REG
03-26-07, 09:10 PM Was wondering if a non-monk takes this, is the damage still only 1-3 for med. creatures? I wouldn't expect it to scale like a monk, but I would think someone with IUS should do 1-4 or perhaps even 1-6. Seems like where I've been looking it just says they don't provoke AoO's and can deal lethal, which is all well and good, but if there is a change to damage I haven't seen it.
To increase unarmed attack damage, you'll need to take the next feat in the Improved Unarmed Strike feat tree: Superior Unarmed Strike (see Tome of Battle).
starfire311
03-26-07, 10:55 PM +1 BAB, +3 saves, evasion, and a bonus feat? It's a good breakpoint.

yeah it is all good, 2 levels of monk gives

+1 BAB, +3 to all saves, 2 bonus feats, Wisdom to AC when unarmored, evasion, flurry of blows and Monks unarmed strike
Kazgoth
03-26-07, 11:48 PM Thanks for the replies, I just needed a total. It's for a NPC cleric cursed to be a medusa, I want IUS to get stunning fist so the snakes can get an easier bite and knock a bit off saves vs. stoning. The damage is really a secondary consideration for me, but something ya need to know hehe. Thanks again all.
runestar
03-27-07, 06:56 AM Fighters were actually proven to be mathematically superior to monks as unarmed fighters damagewise even before ToB. Though I guess every little bit helps.:)
tetebetson
03-27-07, 08:24 AM With the advent of Superior Unarmed Strike and the fact that fighters don't suffer from MAD a fighter actually makes a better unarmed combatant then a monk now.

no it dont
cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better
just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all
also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher
starfire311
03-27-07, 08:38 AM no it dont
cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better
just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all
also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher

um, fighters still make better unarmed combatants than monks, because they hit a lot more often, and do more damage, all while not needing to sink ability points into wisdom.

Monks get some neat tricks that fighters don't but fighters are better fighters than monks
enygmatic_me
03-27-07, 07:52 PM no it dont
cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better
just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all
also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher

Superior Unarmed Strike and Monks Belt becomes useless to a monk only build as a medium sized Monk's unarmed damage no longer progresses with levels after 20th level. So a 20th level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt still only does 2d10 base damage, so what you really have at that point is a wasted feat and a magic item for sale.

As the Fighter has no reason to really worry about Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma they can concentrate on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. A 20th level Fighter will have higher strength than a monk, will have Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), so forth and so on for feats, all while wearing their Adamantine Fullplate of Heavy Fortification +5 and their belt of giant strength +6 as well as an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5.
Ranger REG
03-27-07, 08:02 PM Superior Unarmed Strike and Monks Belt becomes useless to a monk only build as a medium sized Monk's unarmed damage no longer progresses with levels after 20th level. So a 20th level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt still only does 2d10 base damage, so what you really have at that point is a wasted feat and a magic item for sale.
Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks.

By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat.
tetebetson
03-27-07, 08:03 PM um, fighters still make better unarmed combatants than monks, because they hit a lot more often, and do more damage, all while not needing to sink ability points into wisdom.

Monks get some neat tricks that fighters don't but fighters are better fighters than monks

i can't dissagree on that cos a fighter is a fighter but u can get stuck on the basher tank charecter path which narrows roleplay options :)
tetebetson
03-27-07, 08:05 PM Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks.

By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat.

think that would be superb;)
Dheran
03-28-07, 01:58 PM This doesn't work. The monk's Unarmed Strike class feature is considered a natural weapon for such feats but IUS does not grant this consideration. Just because you have IUS doesn't mean your unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for such feats. If you are not a monk then you actually need a natural weapon to gain INA. Unarmed strike is not a natural weapon. WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties:
Grants Improved Unarmed Strike.
Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).
Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike.
enygmatic_me
03-28-07, 03:34 PM Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks.

By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat.

Here is the problem though. A monk doesn't qualify for Superior Unarmed Strike Until 6th level.

A Monk's Belt costs 13,000 GP. Using the Wealth by Level and Treasure per Encounter rules presented in the DMG a character who didn't need to spend any gold through their entire career with a nice DM could buy one by 6th level. For a treasure horde to be of enough value to hold a single Monk's belt and nothing else would be around 13th level. Most likely you are looking more along the lines of 13th level.

So, if at 13th level you already have Superior Unarmed Strike your are the equivalent of 17th level monk already and only benefit from the Monk's Belt for 3 levels and then not completely. Now, if you don't have Superior Unarmed Strike then the Monk's Belt is worth it for a while longer. As a combination the two together are not that great as you get them so late. If you get both earlier they may be better, but then you are unbalanced as compared to the rest of the party and that is not fun for the other players and will most likely not happen under a DM that cares about the power level of their game.

So though it is a valid combination it is a magic item dependent one that comes so late that it barely matters.

Even so, a you figure that through feats alone the fighter is capable of adding another +4 to Hit and +6 to damage with the use of 5 feats by 12th level. Considering a fighter can afford to have a 18 strength to start, boosted to 21 by 12th level, that is another +5 to hit and damage rolls. Add in (for less than half the cost of Monk's Belt) an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1. So, before adding in such things as Power Attack, Hammer Fist, Spin Kick, etc... a fighter will be doing 1d10+12 points of damage per hit with an attack bonus of +22.

Consider that a monk of 12th level, Superior Unarmed Strike, and a Monk's Belt has a base damage of 2d8, a BAB of +9, will probably have a much lower strength, as well as they can't benefit from most of the feats the fighter has. Is saying the Monk has a 15 Strength fair? Heck, lets go ahead and say that for some reason they have an 18 Strength and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike).

2d8+4 Damage and an Attack Bonus of + 14. Average Damage 13 per hit.
1d10+12 Damage and an Attack Bonus of +21. Average Damage 17.5 per hit.
SALDAR
03-28-07, 05:35 PM WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties:
Grants Improved Unarmed Strike.
Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).
Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike.

Which is in direct conflict with the RAW and the RotG article on unarmed attacks. So WotC does not disagree with me. A single magic item's description does not set a paradigm.
Dheran
03-29-07, 12:20 PM So, if at 13th level you already have Superior Unarmed Strike your are the equivalent of 17th level monk already and only benefit from the Monk's Belt for 3 levels and then not completely. While true for the unarmed strike benefit, don't ignore the AC boost of the Monk's Belt: that keeps working forever. There's a cap at 20th level for unarmed damage, but not for the monk's AC bonus. +5 levels is always going to be worth an extra +1 to AC.
enygmatic_me
03-29-07, 11:05 PM While true for the unarmed strike benefit, don't ignore the AC boost of the Monk's Belt: that keeps working forever. There's a cap at 20th level for unarmed damage, but not for the monk's AC bonus. +5 levels is always going to be worth an extra +1 to AC.

There are far better ways to boost AC and far more useful magic items to put around a characters waist. Honestly, would you rather have a +1 to AC item around your waist or an item that grants +6 Strength?
runestar
03-30-07, 01:34 AM There are far better ways to boost AC and far more useful magic items to put around a characters waist. Honestly, would you rather have a +1 to AC item around your waist or an item that grants +6 Strength?
It is wis mod +1 AC.
For certain classes like wildshaping druids with high wis scores and reason to wear light armour, it might actually be better to wear a monk's belt and bracers of armour. Unless you are a swordsage of course.:)
jaelis
03-30-07, 07:56 AM WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties:
Grants Improved Unarmed Strike.
Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).
Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike.

One could say the fanged ring also grants the special monk ability that allows your unarmed strike to benefit from INA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kazgoth 03-26-07, 02:33 PM	Was wondering if a non-monk takes this, is the damage still only 1-3 for med. creatures? I wouldn't expect it to scale like a monk, but I would think someone with IUS should do 1-4 or perhaps even 1-6. Seems like where I've been looking it just says they don't provoke AoO's and can deal lethal, which is all well and good, but if there is a change to damage I haven't seen it.
tarkin 03-26-07, 02:37 PM	No change to damage. It is one of the reasons so few non-monks take it.
Toptomcat 03-26-07, 03:31 PM	There's a separate feat with IUS in the pre-reqs, Superior Unarmed Strike, available in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. It gives non-monks an unarmed damage progression, though not one as strong as theirs.
malignor 03-26-07, 03:44 PM	You can also take up Improved Natural Attack, listed in the Monster Manual, to increase your unarmed strikes to 1d4. For example, if you want to be a slugger-fighter, take IUStrike, INAttack, and Weapon Spec - Unarmed. at 4th level, you can be doing 1d4+2, plus strength... the same average damage as 1d8+strength. Greater Weapon Spec bumps it up to 1d4+4, which is the same average as 1d12 (5-8 or 1-12, both average out at 6.5 damage per hit). So to get the same average damage output as 1d12 requires 6 feats (IUStrike, INAttack, WFocus, WSpec, GWFocus, GWSpec). This is all SRD, mind you, and I bet there are better goodies out there. Of course the best thing about Improved Unarmed Strike is it opens the door for Improved Grapple.
Toptomcat 03-26-07, 04:00 PM	And the BO9S feat synergizes with all of those, making an unarmed Fighter fairly plausible, if not really powerful.
SALDAR 03-26-07, 07:23 PM	You can also take up Improved Natural Attack, listed in the Monster Manual, to increase your unarmed strikes to 1d4. This doesn't work. The monk's Unarmed Strike class feature is considered a natural weapon for such feats but IUS does not grant this consideration. Just because you have IUS doesn't mean your unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for such feats. If you are not a monk then you actually need a natural weapon to gain INA. Unarmed strike is not a natural weapon.
enygmatic_me 03-26-07, 07:28 PM	With the advent of Superior Unarmed Strike and the fact that fighters don't suffer from MAD a fighter actually makes a better unarmed combatant then a monk now.
starfire311 03-26-07, 07:59 PM	And the BO9S feat synergizes with all of those, making an unarmed Fighter fairly plausible, if not really powerful. yep, try this on for size we had a " unarmed brawler in my game" human fighter 8/monk2 feats(something like this, cant remember the exact order) Weapon focus(Unarmed strike), Improved natural attack, Improved Grapple, Combat reflexes, Superior Unarmed Strike, Martial Study(shadow Hand-Cloak of Deception), Versatile Unarmed Strike, Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance) Shadow Blade, Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike), Melee Weapon Mastery(bludgeoning), Greater Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) He has Strength 18, Dex 18 and a monks belt(this includes stat bumps and +2 strength on his belt and +4 dex gloves), +1 amulet of mighty fists He has +9 BAB, giving Unarmed strike of +18, 2D8+13+2D6(SA) or unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 2D8+13+2D6(SA) Yes I know this is by no means broken, but I thought it was pretty cool
enygmatic_me 03-26-07, 08:25 PM	yep, try this on for size we had a " unarmed brawler in my game" human fighter 8/monk2 feats(something like this, cant remember the exact order) Weapon focus(Unarmed strike), Improved natural attack, Improved Grapple, Combat reflexes, Superior Unarmed Strike, Martial Study(shadow Hand-Cloak of Deception), Versatile Unarmed Strike, Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance) Shadow Blade, Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike), Melee Weapon Mastery(bludgeoning), Greater Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) He has Strength 18, Dex 18 and a monks belt(this includes stat bumps and +2 strength on his belt and +4 dex gloves), +1 amulet of mighty fists He has +9 BAB, giving Unarmed strike of +18, 2D8+13+2D6(SA) or unarmed strike +16/+16/+11 2D8+13+2D6(SA) Yes I know this is by no means broken, but I thought it was pretty cool Out of curiosity, why monk 2?
Toptomcat 03-26-07, 08:37 PM	+1 BAB, +3 saves, evasion, and a bonus feat? It's a good breakpoint.
Ranger REG 03-26-07, 09:10 PM	Was wondering if a non-monk takes this, is the damage still only 1-3 for med. creatures? I wouldn't expect it to scale like a monk, but I would think someone with IUS should do 1-4 or perhaps even 1-6. Seems like where I've been looking it just says they don't provoke AoO's and can deal lethal, which is all well and good, but if there is a change to damage I haven't seen it. To increase unarmed attack damage, you'll need to take the next feat in the Improved Unarmed Strike feat tree: Superior Unarmed Strike (see Tome of Battle).
starfire311 03-26-07, 10:55 PM	+1 BAB, +3 saves, evasion, and a bonus feat? It's a good breakpoint. yeah it is all good, 2 levels of monk gives +1 BAB, +3 to all saves, 2 bonus feats, Wisdom to AC when unarmored, evasion, flurry of blows and Monks unarmed strike
Kazgoth 03-26-07, 11:48 PM	Thanks for the replies, I just needed a total. It's for a NPC cleric cursed to be a medusa, I want IUS to get stunning fist so the snakes can get an easier bite and knock a bit off saves vs. stoning. The damage is really a secondary consideration for me, but something ya need to know hehe. Thanks again all.
runestar 03-27-07, 06:56 AM	Fighters were actually proven to be mathematically superior to monks as unarmed fighters damagewise even before ToB. Though I guess every little bit helps.:)
tetebetson 03-27-07, 08:24 AM	With the advent of Superior Unarmed Strike and the fact that fighters don't suffer from MAD a fighter actually makes a better unarmed combatant then a monk now. no it dont cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher
starfire311 03-27-07, 08:38 AM	no it dont cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher um, fighters still make better unarmed combatants than monks, because they hit a lot more often, and do more damage, all while not needing to sink ability points into wisdom. Monks get some neat tricks that fighters don't but fighters are better fighters than monks
enygmatic_me 03-27-07, 07:52 PM	no it dont cos if you are a monk you get i.u.s free and u can still get the other feats on top of it , and you can chosse to do non leathal dmg with no penalty, also SUP UNRD STR could be selected as a plausable monk bonus feat . but evan better just get SNAP KICK feat out of ,the book of nine swords, u get an extra attack which will double your chance of hitting and dammaging someone this or get all also for monks get a belt of the monk you do damage of a mnk 5 levals higher add that with sup unrmd strk and thats damage of 9 levls higher Superior Unarmed Strike and Monks Belt becomes useless to a monk only build as a medium sized Monk's unarmed damage no longer progresses with levels after 20th level. So a 20th level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt still only does 2d10 base damage, so what you really have at that point is a wasted feat and a magic item for sale. As the Fighter has no reason to really worry about Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma they can concentrate on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. A 20th level Fighter will have higher strength than a monk, will have Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), so forth and so on for feats, all while wearing their Adamantine Fullplate of Heavy Fortification +5 and their belt of giant strength +6 as well as an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5.
Ranger REG 03-27-07, 08:02 PM	Superior Unarmed Strike and Monks Belt becomes useless to a monk only build as a medium sized Monk's unarmed damage no longer progresses with levels after 20th level. So a 20th level monk with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt still only does 2d10 base damage, so what you really have at that point is a wasted feat and a magic item for sale. Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks. By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat.
tetebetson 03-27-07, 08:03 PM	um, fighters still make better unarmed combatants than monks, because they hit a lot more often, and do more damage, all while not needing to sink ability points into wisdom. Monks get some neat tricks that fighters don't but fighters are better fighters than monks i can't dissagree on that cos a fighter is a fighter but u can get stuck on the basher tank charecter path which narrows roleplay options :)
tetebetson 03-27-07, 08:05 PM	Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks. By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat. think that would be superb;)
Dheran 03-28-07, 01:58 PM	This doesn't work. The monk's Unarmed Strike class feature is considered a natural weapon for such feats but IUS does not grant this consideration. Just because you have IUS doesn't mean your unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for such feats. If you are not a monk then you actually need a natural weapon to gain INA. Unarmed strike is not a natural weapon. WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties: Grants Improved Unarmed Strike. Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike.
enygmatic_me 03-28-07, 03:34 PM	Perhaps, but you can inflict greater damage at an earlier level than normal monks. By the time you reach the unarmed damage ceiling with normal monk, you could always use the Retraining rules from PHB II to swap for a different feat. Here is the problem though. A monk doesn't qualify for Superior Unarmed Strike Until 6th level. A Monk's Belt costs 13,000 GP. Using the Wealth by Level and Treasure per Encounter rules presented in the DMG a character who didn't need to spend any gold through their entire career with a nice DM could buy one by 6th level. For a treasure horde to be of enough value to hold a single Monk's belt and nothing else would be around 13th level. Most likely you are looking more along the lines of 13th level. So, if at 13th level you already have Superior Unarmed Strike your are the equivalent of 17th level monk already and only benefit from the Monk's Belt for 3 levels and then not completely. Now, if you don't have Superior Unarmed Strike then the Monk's Belt is worth it for a while longer. As a combination the two together are not that great as you get them so late. If you get both earlier they may be better, but then you are unbalanced as compared to the rest of the party and that is not fun for the other players and will most likely not happen under a DM that cares about the power level of their game. So though it is a valid combination it is a magic item dependent one that comes so late that it barely matters. Even so, a you figure that through feats alone the fighter is capable of adding another +4 to Hit and +6 to damage with the use of 5 feats by 12th level. Considering a fighter can afford to have a 18 strength to start, boosted to 21 by 12th level, that is another +5 to hit and damage rolls. Add in (for less than half the cost of Monk's Belt) an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1. So, before adding in such things as Power Attack, Hammer Fist, Spin Kick, etc... a fighter will be doing 1d10+12 points of damage per hit with an attack bonus of +22. Consider that a monk of 12th level, Superior Unarmed Strike, and a Monk's Belt has a base damage of 2d8, a BAB of +9, will probably have a much lower strength, as well as they can't benefit from most of the feats the fighter has. Is saying the Monk has a 15 Strength fair? Heck, lets go ahead and say that for some reason they have an 18 Strength and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). 2d8+4 Damage and an Attack Bonus of + 14. Average Damage 13 per hit. 1d10+12 Damage and an Attack Bonus of +21. Average Damage 17.5 per hit.
SALDAR 03-28-07, 05:35 PM	WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties: Grants Improved Unarmed Strike. Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike. Which is in direct conflict with the RAW and the RotG article on unarmed attacks. So WotC does not disagree with me. A single magic item's description does not set a paradigm.
Dheran 03-29-07, 12:20 PM	So, if at 13th level you already have Superior Unarmed Strike your are the equivalent of 17th level monk already and only benefit from the Monk's Belt for 3 levels and then not completely. While true for the unarmed strike benefit, don't ignore the AC boost of the Monk's Belt: that keeps working forever. There's a cap at 20th level for unarmed damage, but not for the monk's AC bonus. +5 levels is always going to be worth an extra +1 to AC.
enygmatic_me 03-29-07, 11:05 PM	While true for the unarmed strike benefit, don't ignore the AC boost of the Monk's Belt: that keeps working forever. There's a cap at 20th level for unarmed damage, but not for the monk's AC bonus. +5 levels is always going to be worth an extra +1 to AC. There are far better ways to boost AC and far more useful magic items to put around a characters waist. Honestly, would you rather have a +1 to AC item around your waist or an item that grants +6 Strength?
runestar 03-30-07, 01:34 AM	There are far better ways to boost AC and far more useful magic items to put around a characters waist. Honestly, would you rather have a +1 to AC item around your waist or an item that grants +6 Strength? It is wis mod +1 AC. For certain classes like wildshaping druids with high wis scores and reason to wear light armour, it might actually be better to wear a monk's belt and bracers of armour. Unless you are a swordsage of course.:)
jaelis 03-30-07, 07:56 AM	WotC apparently disagrees. In Dragon Magic (page 101) there's the Fanged Ring for 10,000 gp. This magic item has the following properties: Grants Improved Unarmed Strike. Grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). Enables you to deal 1 point of constitution damage to your foe upon making a critical hit with an unarmed strike. One could say the fanged ring also grants the special monk ability that allows your unarmed strike to benefit from INA.