Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Divisionbyzer0 02-04-08, 11:27 PM	I'm playing an Orc barbarian 3 / ranger 4 / paragon 1. I took the two weapon path so I'm up in the enemies' grille all the time. I'm learning fast that this type of character has not the best AC. To fight two weapon I have to wear light armor, and when raging the AC drops further. In addition to this, my con score is 12, so I'm only getting a +1 to my hit die rolls. I've died twice already, and luckily the DM is going easy on us by only removing our xp so we are at the base of the current level instead of draining a level entirely. We aren't in a region that supports economies that have loads of good magical items for sale, so all I can do is look to feats, or hope the DM gives good items in the monster's treasure. When I don't fight two weapons, I use a darkwood buckler, so I'm thinking "improved bucker defense" wouldn't be a bad feat choice, as that would let me get my full attack and still get the buckler bonus. I see the two weapon defense feats but they don't look like they're worth the time. I figure with the improved buckler feat I can always get a better buckler which could exceed a total bonus of +3 from all the two weapon defense feats. I could also go for things that improve my HP like improved toughness. However going for defense obviously reduces my offensive capabilities. My current feats are weapon focus, power attack, and cleave. Thoughts?
dman11235 02-05-08, 12:01 AM	You should focus on dex as a ranger, whether TWF or ranged. That way your AC doesn't suck. Also, how is your con only 12? Every character I play has good con, just for the HP, and sometimes for AC (Fist of the Forest (CC)). If you do take a level of FotF, you will get con to AC (which isn't much for you), and you will also get Feral Trance, which gives you +4 dex (and a boost to unarmed damage). True it is an unarmed specialist, but that AC boost is useful. The only problem with this is that you won't be able to use a shield at all, much like the monk. Now, what you have to decide is whether or not you want a better defence, because a better defence for you does equal a worse offence.
Divisionbyzer0 02-05-08, 12:27 AM	You should focus on dex as a ranger, whether TWF or ranged. That way your AC doesn't suck. Also, how is your con only 12? Every character I play has good con, just for the HP, and sometimes for AC (Fist of the Forest (CC)). If you do take a level of FotF, you will get con to AC (which isn't much for you), and you will also get Feral Trance, which gives you +4 dex (and a boost to unarmed damage). True it is an unarmed specialist, but that AC boost is useful. The only problem with this is that you won't be able to use a shield at all, much like the monk. Now, what you have to decide is whether or not you want a better defence, because a better defence for you does equal a worse offence. CC is complete champion? I don't think our group has that book. All I have is PHB and CW. I have no idea why I didn't put the higher ability into constitution. :banghead: I'll blame it on being my first time playing 3rd and not playing any RPs for about 6 years prior. I got 20 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 14 wis, 4 cha. Had I put it into constitution it would be 15, and my intelligence would be 10. Thus far I put my ability bonuses into dex and wis. Probably should have put them all into dex or dex and con. We have the opportunity to get some dragon skin and apparently our DM has alternate rules for dragonhide armor which makes it not as crappy as what's described in the DMG. That could help out. Only having light armor sucks though. I thought of doing dread commando for the check penalty reductions, but I'm not sure when medium armor or heavy armor with check penalty reductions is treated as "light" for the purposes of TWF.
dman11235 02-05-08, 01:33 AM	No, it needs to be concidered light for a ranger to benefit. That means mythral medium armor will work, but nothing heavier. What I would have done was put the 20 in dex, and the 18 in con. 12 for strength.
Divisionbyzer0 02-05-08, 04:03 AM	The 20 was initially a 16. The dex was 17. My unmodified rolls were: 6, 16, 17 12, 15, 14. I choose half-orc and was just reincarnated as an orc, hence the 20 str. So, let's say you'd have played a half orc, would you have went: 16 str, 17 dex, 15 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 4 cha?
serow_#R 02-05-08, 04:22 AM	Maybe Dodge-Mobility-Elusive Target?
narack 02-05-08, 08:05 AM	there's a feat that give DR 2/- that require CON of like 17. I don't remember the book but it's stackable. I know that in the epic book there is epic DR for DR 3/-
Divisionbyzer0 02-05-08, 08:21 AM	there's a feat that give DR 2/- that require CON of like 17. I don't remember the book but it's stackable. I know that in the epic book there is epic DR for DR 3/- Interesting, for sure, but my con is only 12. Not sure how I could get it up to 17. I know theres also a damage reduction feat in the CW which reduces it by 1 and only requires damage reduction as a prereq. Maybe Dodge-Mobility-Elusive Target? Serow, elusive target certainly looks like it could help me out, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to commit 2 other feats to it (I know, I know, "dodge and mobility are defensive feats too"). I considered dodge and mobility as I've considered taking dread commando levels, but I might not go that route, especially since as dman says the check penalty reduction feature that class still doesn't convert medium or heavier armor into light, so the incentives to me from that class aren't as good as I thought they'd be. And check penalty reductions take up two of its 5 levels. I might see if my DM will let me drop my spells (we have a cleric and druid anyhow) as the variant ranger presented in the Complete Champion so I could get some more feats, if I can get a hold of the book somehow.
dman11235 02-05-08, 11:26 AM	there's a feat that give DR 2/- that require CON of like 17. I don't remember the book but it's stackable. I know that in the epic book there is epic DR for DR 3/- It's the (broken) Roll With It feat from SS.
serow_#R 02-05-08, 11:27 AM	I might see if my DM will let me drop my spells (we have a cleric and druid anyhow) as the variant ranger presented in the Complete Champion so I could get some more feats, if I can get a hold of the book somehow.I'm not too sure, but if you're going to grab hold of a book, it might be a better idea to grab hold of the Spell Compendium instead. Ranger spells received quite an upgrade with that book. They should be worth more than 4 bonus feats.
dman11235 02-05-08, 11:40 AM	Should be? Are. Are more powerful. Especially for an archer ranger.
Divisionbyzer0 02-05-08, 01:23 PM	I'm not too sure, but if you're going to grab hold of a book, it might be a better idea to grab hold of the Spell Compendium instead. Ranger spells received quite an upgrade with that book. They should be worth more than 4 bonus feats. I'll look into it, but is there anything there that compares to the druid or cleric spells? Like I said, we have a cleric and a druid (and a bard), so I can get buffs and healing from them. Consider also that I might (probably will) take more paragon, and possibly a prestige class, so the spells won't be advancing very quickly. If things work the way I want them to (probably wont) I'd get both of those books from epay shortly.
dman11235 02-05-08, 01:53 PM	I know for an archer it has Hunter's Mercy and Arrow Mind. Also, having you buff yourself a little means less time for cleric+druid buffing. Listening Lorecall is a nice one, Healing Lorecall can be useful, but only in very specific circumstances. Camoflauge and Hawkeye are useful. Burrow gives you a burrow speed, Curse of Impending Blades can be good, Forest Fold, Mark of the Hunter is quite good, Find the Gap is also good, Surefooted Stride is nice, and finally the later Magic Fang spells (greater or superior) are nice for your pet.
Scion of Coldshard 02-06-08, 02:47 PM	From the PHBII you could get into the combat form feat tree. With combat focus, combat stability, and combat vigor you will have +4 to will saves, +8 to resist a bunch of combat maneuvers, and fast healing 4. Later on you could pick up combat awareness in order to always know how to distribute your actions properly by knowing allies and foes hp along with having blindsight so that you dont have to worry about things like invisibility. That should make up for a pretty good amount of defense ;)
dman11235 02-06-08, 05:10 PM	Only problem with the combat forms: too many feats.
Scion of Coldshard 02-06-08, 06:51 PM	Only problem with the combat forms: too many feats. How so? The talk here has been about multiple feats from the beginning. The combat form feats are good options for what was asked. You can take the easy route and go for improved shield bash. This will allow you to do your twf trick while still keeping the shields AC benefit. You can also pick up shield specialization and shield ward from the PHBII for more benefits as well.
xdahnx 02-06-08, 07:16 PM	what about using a shield with a shield spike on it? to bash or strike as your secondary attack? There's a feat in the PHB called improved shield bash, that lets you keep your AC from the shield even when you attack with it also, i would pick up a Mithril Breastplate, counts as light armour. At level 8, you should def. be able to afford it.
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 12:51 AM	what about using a shield with a shield spike on it? to bash or strike as your secondary attack? There's a feat in the PHB called improved shield bash, that lets you keep your AC from the shield even when you attack with it also, i would pick up a Mithril Breastplate, counts as light armour. At level 8, you should def. be able to afford it. I have 500 GP. My character lets the others keep the gold and asks when he wants something. Again, no one in this region will sell things that expensive. When I can I will try to obtain that, or see what the dragonhide rules my DM is using are. I like my + 1 frost hand axe at the moment, which is why I wouldn't consider use a shield with a spike. To bash with it I'd still need some feat to be able to gain the bonuses to my AC and attack with it the same round anyhow, right? While I want better defense I don't really want to get into long chains devoted to it, which is why I initially thought "improved buckler defense". If I'm not mistaken, thoght, bucklers only apply to one opponent per round?
Scion of Coldshard 02-07-08, 01:11 AM	Bucklers work on all attacks that a shield works against but with improved buckler defense you still have to worry about the penalty to attack I believe. Improved shield bash is likely a better plan though, as I stated earlier, as you get to keep the shield bonus while attacking with the shield ;)
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 01:38 AM	Bucklers work on all attacks that a shield works against but with improved buckler defense you still have to worry about the penalty to attack I believe. Improved shield bash is likely a better plan though, as I stated earlier, as you get to keep the shield bonus while attacking with the shield ;) I guess I was thinking of dodge. If you use a heavy shield off hand your attacks will be -4 / -4 and the shield does 1d6 and you get +2 AC. This is too much of a reduction in hit chance, and is not viable. If you use a light spiked one your attacks are -2 / -2 and you deal 1d4 and you get +1 AC 1d4 for an offhand attack is mediocre, IMO. Also there is an aspect of visualization. Punching someone with a shield isn't as appealing as cutting someone with another weapon. Currently, since I'm not going to be able to buy a shield that has been enchanted for use on making attacks, with the magical weapons I have, improved buckler looks like it strikes the best balance. My buckler is darkwood and gives +2 and my handaxe is +1 which negates the penalty from having my arm weighed down. So if I were to get improved buckler with what I have my attacks would be -2 / -2, 2d6 +1 from the offhand (forgetting about str bonus) +2 AC. This is the best option of the three given with what I have.
Scion of Coldshard 02-07-08, 01:41 AM	With a buckler and a light weapon in the off-hand you are looking at -3/-3.
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 01:46 AM	From the PHBII you could get into the combat form feat tree. With combat focus, combat stability, and combat vigor you will have +4 to will saves, +8 to resist a bunch of combat maneuvers, and fast healing 4. Later on you could pick up combat awareness in order to always know how to distribute your actions properly by knowing allies and foes hp along with having blindsight so that you dont have to worry about things like invisibility. That should make up for a pretty good amount of defense ;) What do we mean by "combat maneuvers"? The stuff the warblade uses or the stuff that comes from tactical feats, or stuff like trip feint sunder etc? Is combat awareness part of that feat chain? If I were to swap out all my feats for those my offensive capacity would be fairly weakened, though the +4 will saves could prove useful since I've been suffering as a result of failing my will saves from time to time. I'd like to find a nice balance between defensive and offensive feats, since now that the fighter rogue is swaping in a druid instead there will be no straight on warrior type of character.
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 01:49 AM	With a buckler and a light weapon in the off-hand you are looking at -3/-3. Cite the source for this? My impression is that the -1 from the buckler stacks on the light weapon in the off hand arm only giving you a -2 / -3? Am I mistaken? Why would the weight of the buckler -- a mere 5 lbs -- have any effect on the attack from your dominant arm? The description of the buckler is actually unclear the way it's worded, but it doesn't make sense for the penalty to stack on both hands. Perhaps I have to go back to the articles WoTC has posted on TWF again, to see if they cover this.
Scion of Coldshard 02-07-08, 12:37 PM	What do we mean by "combat maneuvers"? Maneuvers used in combat such as trip, bullrush, overrun, grapple, etc. If I were to swap out all my feats for those my offensive capacity would be fairly weakened You look to be primarily using two weapons, and they are different weapons at that. Which means that weapon focus, power attack, and cleave dont really do much for your offense to begin with. Those are good choices for dealing damage with a two handed weapon, but fairly poor choices for doing damage with two weapon fighting. I'd like to find a nice balance between defensive and offensive feats, since now that the fighter rogue is swaping in a druid instead there will be no straight on warrior type of character. A level 8 straight druid will be more of a primary combatant/damage dealer than you could ever hope to be with your current build ;) That is not saying that your character is multiclassed poorly, simply that a level 8 druid is a super destroyer of melee. Cite the source for this? The PHB says, '... but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off-hand and for fighting with two weapons.' Now the extra weight bit is pretty much fluff, and the whole thing could've been worded better, but I see a clear case for having the penalty apply to the two weapon fighting penalties.
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 05:42 PM	Maneuvers used in combat such as trip, bullrush, overrun, grapple, etc. You look to be primarily using two weapons, and they are different weapons at that. Which means that weapon focus, power attack, and cleave dont really do much for your offense to begin with. Those are good choices for dealing damage with a two handed weapon, but fairly poor choices for doing damage with two weapon fighting. Why? The focus is just as good as would be one handed, and I've used both of the other two with good success. If I'm being buffed by the bard, the cleric, and my rage, I can easily space to hit for damage. A lot of times I charge with a power attack holding the battle axe two handed, and then use my move next round to draw the handaxe. Quick draw would work or just using the double axe would work. If used cleave a lot too. For the record, my group chose my feats for me since I was new to the character process at the time. I plan to switch them out soon. You have any recommendations off hand? stuff about druid being supreme True, either way I don't want to commit all my feats to defense. Now the extra weight bit is pretty much fluff, and the whole thing could've been worded better, but I see a clear case for having the penalty apply to the two weapon fighting penalties. My DM would agree with me that it makes sense to only apply to the one arm and he'd house rule it :D
Nephlite 02-07-08, 05:54 PM	Cite the source for this? My impression is that the -1 from the buckler stacks on the light weapon in the off hand arm only giving you a -2 / -3? Am I mistaken? Why would the weight of the buckler -- a mere 5 lbs -- have any effect on the attack from your dominant arm? The description of the buckler is actually unclear the way it's worded, but it doesn't make sense for the penalty to stack on both hands. Perhaps I have to go back to the articles WoTC has posted on TWF again, to see if they cover this. Maybe he was thinking Weapon Finesse. It applies a shields armor check to attack rolls for main hand.
Scion of Coldshard 02-07-08, 06:13 PM	In this case focus would be better if both of your weapons would benefit from it. For a two handed weapon it makes more sense since each extra bonus to hit provides a larger amount of damage. Power attack is in a similar boat. With those feats you are basically giving yourself some poor options for one of your attack modes and ok options for the other, but neither are very focused on the job you are trying to do. In essence, they are halfway useful and halfway wasted. If you are wanting to optimize more in order to increase your offensive and defensive abilities then you'll want to find a way to minimize the wasted bits and maximize the useful bits. I am not trying to say the the options you have are no good, they can certainly come in handy sometimes! It is just that you have several cross competing abilities which means you will be only ok at best with any of them at any given time. For your character I would have to see the full writup and know what sources are allowed to be able to suggest anything that might be really helpful or indepth. Offhand I would say that getting the extra rage feat would be good, assuming that you have more than one combat a day, as this would mean that you can get your bonus to hit and damage more often and reliably (plus it applies to both weapons, much better than weapon focus there!). If you had access to equipment there would be a whole lot more options. You should make sure to get both a haste spell and shield of faith on you. Possibly even a barkskin from the druid when he comes into play and, if really necessary, a shield other from the cleric. That should really fill out your defenses, although it requires a lot of resources from the rest of the party. ;/
Divisionbyzer0 02-07-08, 07:25 PM	In this case focus would be better if both of your weapons would benefit from it. For a two handed weapon it makes more sense since each extra bonus to hit provides a larger amount of damage. Power attack is in a similar boat. With those feats you are basically giving yourself some poor options for one of your attack modes and ok options for the other, but neither are very focused on the job you are trying to do. In essence, they are halfway useful and halfway wasted. If you are wanting to optimize more in order to increase your offensive and defensive abilities then you'll want to find a way to minimize the wasted bits and maximize the useful bits. I am not trying to say the the options you have are no good, they can certainly come in handy sometimes! It is just that you have several cross competing abilities which means you will be only ok at best with any of them at any given time. For your character I would have to see the full writup and know what sources are allowed to be able to suggest anything that might be really helpful or indepth. Offhand I would say that getting the extra rage feat would be good, assuming that you have more than one combat a day, as this would mean that you can get your bonus to hit and damage more often and reliably (plus it applies to both weapons, much better than weapon focus there!). If you had access to equipment there would be a whole lot more options. You should make sure to get both a haste spell and shield of faith on you. Possibly even a barkskin from the druid when he comes into play and, if really necessary, a shield other from the cleric. That should really fill out your defenses, although it requires a lot of resources from the rest of the party. ;/ The bard will have haste soon. I posted the write up in character optimization board. I'm starting to see your point about the feat choices. I personally have the CW and PHB, and my group has some other books-- complete divine, and arcana are the only two I can recall offhand. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=987624