Imprpved trip, Knockdown, Dungeon Crasher combo [Archive] - Wizards Community

Imprpved trip, Knockdown, Dungeon Crasher combo [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
darkeness
04-21-07, 01:07 PM dungeon crasher is just nasty... especially when combined with improved trip, and knockback.

I do improved trip, and while you are falling to the ground, I slam you into the ground with my follow up attack, doing 8d6+weapon damage+4.5x strength damage (weapon damage with spiked chain, plus 3x strength damage)

This topic got started on another thread where is was really off topic so I thought I would start a new one on the matter.

Now, I am known to do a bit of min-maxing with my chracters (although I still like balance and characters that actually fit into a game), but I wonder about this combo.

As a Dm I am not sure that the synergies work myself (as a player I can only say... hmmm... when do I get to start a new character!).

Correct me if I am wrong (like I actually need to say that), but the style should work this way.... trip attack using power attack, opponant gets tripped, improved trip kicks in (free attack), thus Knockback activates (you used power attack) so that means you get a bull rush attack which then activates the dungeon crasher ability.

Nasty combo if it works. Here is the clincher... realism (oh god, I hate it when that comes up!). Normally I dismiss most people who cite realism in D&D. It is only a game after all. This combo stretches things a bit far, even by my power gaming standards. The whole machanics of bull rush and dungeon crasher is based on using a persons kenetic energy to damage them when they bounce off a wall.

Once you make the trip attack your opponant is on the floor (or almost on the floor). So how do you justify the free bull rush attack? I suppose one could say I am doing extra damage by smashing them INTO the floor.

Of course, this trick only works if you are large (or a race like the Goliath where you are considered large for a feat like this). Other than that you have to use a magic item or spell thus limiting the use of this ability and making the manuver less significant.

Feats required: Combat expertise, Improved trip, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, knockback
Assuming no flaws and the ECL you will be doing this manuver at level 7 (character level 6, +1 level adjustment).

Drawbacks for balance:
1. make touch attack (not hard 90% of the time)
2. you must make a succseful trip (low levels, pretty easy, higher levels more doubtful)
3. you have to hit with second attack after the trip (dependng on power attack not to tough normally)
4. you have to make the bull rush attempt (this depends on the creature you fight, but if you easily trip it, you can easily bull rush it)

Your thoughts?
runestar
04-21-07, 10:52 PM I have no idea what dungeon crasher does, so any assumptions I do make are based solely off your post. Goggle is not being cooperative either...:(

There seems to be nothing in the rules preventing you from bullrushing a prone foe. With regards to bullrushing a tripped opponent, I suppose you could picture it such that you enter his square, maybe grip his neck with your hand or something, then try to rush forward. (If you have ever watched Kamen Rider Ryuki, this is similar to how Tiger executes his final advent).:P
darkeness
04-21-07, 11:09 PM I have no idea what dungeon crasher does, so any assumptions I do make are based solely off your post. Goggle is not being cooperative either...:(

There seems to be nothing in the rules preventing you from bullrushing a prone foe. With regards to bullrushing a tripped opponent, I suppose you could picture it such that you enter his square, maybe grip his neck with your hand or something, then try to rush forward. (If you have ever watched Kamen Rider Ryuki, this is similar to how Tiger executes his final advent).:P

Dungeon crasher option lets you do 4d6+ 2xstr damage to a bull rushed foe. At 6th level the damage increses to 8d6+ 3xstr.

Keep in mind that this combo means you are basicly performing a special bull rush using a weapon, rather than your body.
StruckingFuggle
04-22-07, 01:37 AM Imagine hitting them so hard they go flying into a wall and hit it hard enough something breaks.

That's what Knockback + Dungeon Crasher is like. :)

Batter up!
strenoth
04-22-07, 02:51 AM So imagine the guy with the greatsword slamming it so hard agaisnt his foes that his foe flies backwards and slams against the ground.

there, tripped and bull rushed. :)
StruckingFuggle
04-22-07, 04:05 AM So imagine the guy with the greatsword slamming it so hard agaisnt his foes that his foe flies backwards and slams against the ground.

there, tripped and bull rushed. :)

Well, they still need to travel along the ground...

... now I want to make a Dungeon Crasher with Monkey Grip and a giant adamantine hockey stick ...
strenoth
04-22-07, 10:24 AM No need to travel along the ground. Even following order of resolution, they are off of their feet before they leave their square, so they are trippd before they are bull rushed. Since all o this triggers off a single attack, it's OK for event sto happen semi-simultaneous?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkeness 04-21-07, 01:07 PM	dungeon crasher is just nasty... especially when combined with improved trip, and knockback. I do improved trip, and while you are falling to the ground, I slam you into the ground with my follow up attack, doing 8d6+weapon damage+4.5x strength damage (weapon damage with spiked chain, plus 3x strength damage) This topic got started on another thread where is was really off topic so I thought I would start a new one on the matter. Now, I am known to do a bit of min-maxing with my chracters (although I still like balance and characters that actually fit into a game), but I wonder about this combo. As a Dm I am not sure that the synergies work myself (as a player I can only say... hmmm... when do I get to start a new character!). Correct me if I am wrong (like I actually need to say that), but the style should work this way.... trip attack using power attack, opponant gets tripped, improved trip kicks in (free attack), thus Knockback activates (you used power attack) so that means you get a bull rush attack which then activates the dungeon crasher ability. Nasty combo if it works. Here is the clincher... realism (oh god, I hate it when that comes up!). Normally I dismiss most people who cite realism in D&D. It is only a game after all. This combo stretches things a bit far, even by my power gaming standards. The whole machanics of bull rush and dungeon crasher is based on using a persons kenetic energy to damage them when they bounce off a wall. Once you make the trip attack your opponant is on the floor (or almost on the floor). So how do you justify the free bull rush attack? I suppose one could say I am doing extra damage by smashing them INTO the floor. Of course, this trick only works if you are large (or a race like the Goliath where you are considered large for a feat like this). Other than that you have to use a magic item or spell thus limiting the use of this ability and making the manuver less significant. Feats required: Combat expertise, Improved trip, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, knockback Assuming no flaws and the ECL you will be doing this manuver at level 7 (character level 6, +1 level adjustment). Drawbacks for balance: 1. make touch attack (not hard 90% of the time) 2. you must make a succseful trip (low levels, pretty easy, higher levels more doubtful) 3. you have to hit with second attack after the trip (dependng on power attack not to tough normally) 4. you have to make the bull rush attempt (this depends on the creature you fight, but if you easily trip it, you can easily bull rush it) Your thoughts?
runestar 04-21-07, 10:52 PM	I have no idea what dungeon crasher does, so any assumptions I do make are based solely off your post. Goggle is not being cooperative either...:( There seems to be nothing in the rules preventing you from bullrushing a prone foe. With regards to bullrushing a tripped opponent, I suppose you could picture it such that you enter his square, maybe grip his neck with your hand or something, then try to rush forward. (If you have ever watched Kamen Rider Ryuki, this is similar to how Tiger executes his final advent).:P
darkeness 04-21-07, 11:09 PM	I have no idea what dungeon crasher does, so any assumptions I do make are based solely off your post. Goggle is not being cooperative either...:( There seems to be nothing in the rules preventing you from bullrushing a prone foe. With regards to bullrushing a tripped opponent, I suppose you could picture it such that you enter his square, maybe grip his neck with your hand or something, then try to rush forward. (If you have ever watched Kamen Rider Ryuki, this is similar to how Tiger executes his final advent).:P Dungeon crasher option lets you do 4d6+ 2xstr damage to a bull rushed foe. At 6th level the damage increses to 8d6+ 3xstr. Keep in mind that this combo means you are basicly performing a special bull rush using a weapon, rather than your body.
StruckingFuggle 04-22-07, 01:37 AM	Imagine hitting them so hard they go flying into a wall and hit it hard enough something breaks. That's what Knockback + Dungeon Crasher is like. :) Batter up!
strenoth 04-22-07, 02:51 AM	So imagine the guy with the greatsword slamming it so hard agaisnt his foes that his foe flies backwards and slams against the ground. there, tripped and bull rushed. :)
StruckingFuggle 04-22-07, 04:05 AM	So imagine the guy with the greatsword slamming it so hard agaisnt his foes that his foe flies backwards and slams against the ground. there, tripped and bull rushed. :) Well, they still need to travel along the ground... ... now I want to make a Dungeon Crasher with Monkey Grip and a giant adamantine hockey stick ...
strenoth 04-22-07, 10:24 AM	No need to travel along the ground. Even following order of resolution, they are off of their feet before they leave their square, so they are trippd before they are bull rushed. Since all o this triggers off a single attack, it's OK for event sto happen semi-simultaneous?