In what situations is Inpsire Competence infeasible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

In what situations is Inpsire Competence infeasible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ajmastrean
10-02-07, 01:07 PM A Bard's 3rd level special ability is Inspire Competence (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/bard.html). The SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)states...
"Certain uses of this ability are infeasible."
What specific applications are "infeasible"? And I assume this means that the bonus would not apply, not that the Bard could not physically sing and whatnot.

I have thought of two...
1. Move Silently - obvious
2. Knowledge [Any] - this check is most often a [know/don't know] situation. The bonus is not applicable in most cases.
Puca
10-02-07, 01:43 PM Sing the song (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html) :D

Seriously, sing it. If announcing what you are doing totally ruins the skill, you shouldnt let it work:

Bluff: Lie, lie, lie to that dumass. (Nope)
Hide: Hide, Hide, they wont know where you are. (Well, not exactly where you are. But theyll have a clue youre in the room.)
Move Silently: I hope, I hope they dont hear us. (Nope, we just heard something.)
Sleight of Hand: Carefully, carefully, slide the big ring off, off, off, off off the pinky finger. (Yeah, just blew it.)
Jump: Jump, go ahead and jump. (No, I can still do this. Anyone who could see me knew I was about to jump.)

Now, Id let it work for knowledge, since it isnt just knowing something; it is also remembering things you learned. I know I learned the capital of Zaire. But I dont recall what it is at the moment. Something jogs my memory, like a supernatural ability, and I might.
ajmastrean
10-02-07, 01:51 PM A bard does not have to sing. He may be playing an instrument only (and this is valid, as per the rules).
Puca
10-02-07, 02:11 PM A bard does not have to sing. He may be playing an instrument only (and this is valid, as per the rules).
I realize that.
I wasnt suggesting that they know because like Elan, you use the name of the skill in the song.

My opinion, and opinions are all youre going to get to this question I believe, is that when you are trying to deceive someone, clearly audible signs that “something is going on,” shouldnt improve things.
Brona
10-02-07, 10:10 PM Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons. Probably Craft and Profession too, since you're unlikely to find a bard willing to perform for the entire process.
runestar
10-02-07, 10:23 PM Physical checks such as swim, climb or jump might work. I can imagine the bard doing some sort of rousing cheer which sends your blood pumping, and you feel more "fit" than you would normally feel.

Knowledge is a little trickier. For example, it might not be so much just whether you know it or not, but whether you can recall it at that moment (darn! I know the formula for butane, but I just can't recall it off-hand. And then it strikes you hours later, when you no longer need to know). I assume that too is factored into the d20 you roll for your check, but I wonder if inspiring competence might somehow help you in recalling or something.

I guess truename checks wouldn't apply either...:P
StruckingFuggle
10-03-07, 12:58 AM Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons.

Listen, sure, but Concentration isn't obvious, no.
rosander
10-03-07, 01:08 AM Isn't there a feat or something that lets bardic music work sub-sonically, so that nobody can actually hear you?

I would imagine that would make Inspire Competence feasible in almost all situations.
Jaxgaret
10-03-07, 01:29 AM Isn't there a feat or something that lets bardic music work sub-sonically, so that nobody can actually hear you?

Yeah, it's called Subsonics :)

I would imagine that would make Inspire Competence feasible in almost all situations.

Indeed.

Now, this leads into my next point: if a Subsoniced Inspire Competence works for [almost] all skills, why wouldn't the regular Inspire Courage work for [almost] all skills?

My contention is that it does, but it also has other effects.

For instance, take the example of Bluffing someone. If your Bard buddy makes it obvious that he is Inspiring you to Bluff better, you still get the + to your Bluff check - but the person you are attempting to Bluff receives a much higher bonus to his Sense Motive check.

This is the simplest way to adjudicate what Inspire Competence does, and in which situations it "works" - it always works, but it also in certain situations has side effects that negate its benefit.
InkBlot
10-03-07, 01:38 AM Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons. Probably Craft and Profession too, since you're unlikely to find a bard willing to perform for the entire process.

You've never put on music to help you concentrate?

Also, warforged bards.
navar100
10-03-07, 01:42 AM Listen, sure, but Concentration isn't obvious, no.

Not necessarily. People have said they concentrate better listening to music. You have the stereotypical teenager listening to rock & roll while studying or an intellectual listening to classical music while reading a book.

Sorry, I meant to quote Brona.
StruckingFuggle
10-03-07, 01:22 PM For instance, take the example of Bluffing someone. If your Bard buddy makes it obvious that he is Inspiring you to Bluff better, you still get the + to your Bluff check - but the person you are attempting to Bluff receives a much higher bonus to his Sense Motive check.

Why is it seemed to be assumed that everyone Inspires Competence like Elan and makes it clear what they're doing?
Jaxgaret
10-03-07, 07:45 PM Why is it seemed to be assumed that everyone Inspires Competence like Elan and makes it clear what they're doing?

It's not assumed. At least not by me.

That's why I used the conditional "If your Bard buddy", not "When your Bard buddy."

My theoretical point was something else entirely anyway - that the Inspire Competence bonuses always apply, but the actual act of Inspiring Competence may also be a detriment to the very person you are attempting to Inspire.
Secrets Untold
10-03-07, 10:57 PM Actually, here's a situation that the song would aid Move Silently.

The rogue and company are trying to sneak past someone and the bard is standing in plain sight, playing and keeping the attention of the person, and aiding the rogue.
runestar
10-04-07, 01:36 AM Actually, here's a situation that the song would aid Move Silently.

The rogue and company are trying to sneak past someone and the bard is standing in plain sight, playing and keeping the attention of the person, and aiding the rogue.

That seems more like an application of hypnotism, rather than inspire competence. The sneaker is no better at moving silently, rather, it is the spotter who is less alert because of the distraction.
Jaxgaret
10-04-07, 11:08 AM That seems more like an application of hypnotism, rather than inspire competence. The sneaker is no better at moving silently, rather, it is the spotter who is less alert because of the distraction.

I would say that the sneaker does get the Inspire Competence bonus, but the spotter also gets a circumstance penalty for being distracted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ajmastrean 10-02-07, 01:07 PM	A Bard's 3rd level special ability is Inspire Competence (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/bard.html). The SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)states... "Certain uses of this ability are infeasible." What specific applications are "infeasible"? And I assume this means that the bonus would not apply, not that the Bard could not physically sing and whatnot. I have thought of two... 1. Move Silently - obvious 2. Knowledge [Any] - this check is most often a [know/don't know] situation. The bonus is not applicable in most cases.
Puca 10-02-07, 01:43 PM	Sing the song (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html) :D Seriously, sing it. If announcing what you are doing totally ruins the skill, you shouldnt let it work: Bluff: Lie, lie, lie to that dumass. (Nope) Hide: Hide, Hide, they wont know where you are. (Well, not exactly where you are. But theyll have a clue youre in the room.) Move Silently: I hope, I hope they dont hear us. (Nope, we just heard something.) Sleight of Hand: Carefully, carefully, slide the big ring off, off, off, off off the pinky finger. (Yeah, just blew it.) Jump: Jump, go ahead and jump. (No, I can still do this. Anyone who could see me knew I was about to jump.) Now, Id let it work for knowledge, since it isnt just knowing something; it is also remembering things you learned. I know I learned the capital of Zaire. But I dont recall what it is at the moment. Something jogs my memory, like a supernatural ability, and I might.
ajmastrean 10-02-07, 01:51 PM	A bard does not have to sing. He may be playing an instrument only (and this is valid, as per the rules).
Puca 10-02-07, 02:11 PM	A bard does not have to sing. He may be playing an instrument only (and this is valid, as per the rules). I realize that. I wasnt suggesting that they know because like Elan, you use the name of the skill in the song. My opinion, and opinions are all youre going to get to this question I believe, is that when you are trying to deceive someone, clearly audible signs that “something is going on,” shouldnt improve things.
Brona 10-02-07, 10:10 PM	Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons. Probably Craft and Profession too, since you're unlikely to find a bard willing to perform for the entire process.
runestar 10-02-07, 10:23 PM	Physical checks such as swim, climb or jump might work. I can imagine the bard doing some sort of rousing cheer which sends your blood pumping, and you feel more "fit" than you would normally feel. Knowledge is a little trickier. For example, it might not be so much just whether you know it or not, but whether you can recall it at that moment (darn! I know the formula for butane, but I just can't recall it off-hand. And then it strikes you hours later, when you no longer need to know). I assume that too is factored into the d20 you roll for your check, but I wonder if inspiring competence might somehow help you in recalling or something. I guess truename checks wouldn't apply either...:P
StruckingFuggle 10-03-07, 12:58 AM	Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons. Listen, sure, but Concentration isn't obvious, no.
rosander 10-03-07, 01:08 AM	Isn't there a feat or something that lets bardic music work sub-sonically, so that nobody can actually hear you? I would imagine that would make Inspire Competence feasible in almost all situations.
Jaxgaret 10-03-07, 01:29 AM	Isn't there a feat or something that lets bardic music work sub-sonically, so that nobody can actually hear you? Yeah, it's called Subsonics :) I would imagine that would make Inspire Competence feasible in almost all situations. Indeed. Now, this leads into my next point: if a Subsoniced Inspire Competence works for [almost] all skills, why wouldn't the regular Inspire Courage work for [almost] all skills? My contention is that it does, but it also has other effects. For instance, take the example of Bluffing someone. If your Bard buddy makes it obvious that he is Inspiring you to Bluff better, you still get the + to your Bluff check - but the person you are attempting to Bluff receives a much higher bonus to his Sense Motive check. This is the simplest way to adjudicate what Inspire Competence does, and in which situations it "works" - it always works, but it also in certain situations has side effects that negate its benefit.
InkBlot 10-03-07, 01:38 AM	Concentration and Listen, for obvious reasons. Probably Craft and Profession too, since you're unlikely to find a bard willing to perform for the entire process. You've never put on music to help you concentrate? Also, warforged bards.
navar100 10-03-07, 01:42 AM	Listen, sure, but Concentration isn't obvious, no. Not necessarily. People have said they concentrate better listening to music. You have the stereotypical teenager listening to rock & roll while studying or an intellectual listening to classical music while reading a book. Sorry, I meant to quote Brona.
StruckingFuggle 10-03-07, 01:22 PM	For instance, take the example of Bluffing someone. If your Bard buddy makes it obvious that he is Inspiring you to Bluff better, you still get the + to your Bluff check - but the person you are attempting to Bluff receives a much higher bonus to his Sense Motive check. Why is it seemed to be assumed that everyone Inspires Competence like Elan and makes it clear what they're doing?
Jaxgaret 10-03-07, 07:45 PM	Why is it seemed to be assumed that everyone Inspires Competence like Elan and makes it clear what they're doing? It's not assumed. At least not by me. That's why I used the conditional "If your Bard buddy", not "When your Bard buddy." My theoretical point was something else entirely anyway - that the Inspire Competence bonuses always apply, but the actual act of Inspiring Competence may also be a detriment to the very person you are attempting to Inspire.
Secrets Untold 10-03-07, 10:57 PM	Actually, here's a situation that the song would aid Move Silently. The rogue and company are trying to sneak past someone and the bard is standing in plain sight, playing and keeping the attention of the person, and aiding the rogue.
runestar 10-04-07, 01:36 AM	Actually, here's a situation that the song would aid Move Silently. The rogue and company are trying to sneak past someone and the bard is standing in plain sight, playing and keeping the attention of the person, and aiding the rogue. That seems more like an application of hypnotism, rather than inspire competence. The sneaker is no better at moving silently, rather, it is the spotter who is less alert because of the distraction.
Jaxgaret 10-04-07, 11:08 AM	That seems more like an application of hypnotism, rather than inspire competence. The sneaker is no better at moving silently, rather, it is the spotter who is less alert because of the distraction. I would say that the sneaker does get the Inspire Competence bonus, but the spotter also gets a circumstance penalty for being distracted.