Post/Author/DateTime	Post
teknolaiz 03-13-08, 08:34 PM	I am just curious what you guys think of a certain combination of abilities. I am a bit indifferent right now, but curious if others think this might be too powerful. I am a new DM so judging how powerful things should be is more challenging for me. A player decided to play a Ninja. We are using D&D 3.5. He is using a Shortbow (1D6). He is currently level 4. He is using a combination of Ghost Walk, Sudden Strike and Rapid Shot. Ghost Walk: Spend 1 daily ki power to become invisible for 1 round. Swift Action. No provoked attack of opportunity. Sudden Strike: If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Whenever a target is denied a dexterity bonus to armor class the ninja deals a extra 1d6 per attack. ( Catch an opponent unable to defend himself? Does prone count? Rapid Shot: 1 Extra attack per round with ranged weapon. Attack is at highest base attack damage. -2 penalty to each attack when used. Needs full attack action. So basically, he goes into 'Ghost Walk' then uses 'Sudden Strike' + 'Rapid Shot'. From Sudden Strike at level 4: 2d6 per attack. From Rapid Shot + Short Bow: 1d6x2 all together = 8d6 on any target as long as he has 1 ki point for Ghost Walk. My question is... is this being done correctly.. and is it overpowered? Excuse my ignorance as I said.. I am still new at DMing and slightly new to D&D itself. :weep:
Krusk 03-13-08, 10:42 PM	Are you doing it correctly? almost. 1d6 from the short bow, and 2d6 from the sudden strike. Roll 2 attack rolls, for each one that hits deal 3d6 damage. Total of 6d6 not 8d6. Aside from that, yeah you are doing it right, and no it is not over powered. Consider that he can only do this X times a day, whereas a rogue can do it essentially limitless. Is it a decent idea? yes, overpowered? no.
teknolaiz 03-13-08, 11:36 PM	Are you doing it correctly? almost. 1d6 from the short bow, and 2d6 from the sudden strike. Roll 2 attack rolls, for each one that hits deal 3d6 damage. Total of 6d6 not 8d6. Aside from that, yeah you are doing it right, and no it is not over powered. Consider that he can only do this X times a day, whereas a rogue can do it essentially limitless. Is it a decent idea? yes, overpowered? no. Edit: I think I understand now.. I think. Thank you.
BugHunter 03-13-08, 11:46 PM	Are you doing it correctly? almost. 1d6 from the short bow, and 2d6 from the sudden strike. Roll 2 attack rolls, for each one that hits deal 3d6 damage. Total of 6d6 not 8d6. You missed the +1 for having the point blank shot feat since it is a prerequisite for getting rapid shot. Other wise your math is correct.
teknolaiz 03-14-08, 12:05 AM	Is it possible to use Manyshot with this combo? Also, thanks for all the help.
jaelis 03-14-08, 12:13 AM	Is it possible to use Manyshot with this combo? Yes, but precision damage like sudden strike would only be added once.
Krusk 03-14-08, 01:56 AM	Yes, but precision damage like sudden strike would only be added once. Per attack roll. Youve got 2 attack rolls, so 2 precision damages. Opps, didnt consider point blank shot.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-08, 03:00 AM	To answer one other question from the OP: No, being Prone does not make you susceptible to sneak attack/sudden strike. Sudden Strike requires that the target be denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, and being prone does not cause that. (Though if you're able to make a sneak attack/sudden strike by some other means, the fact that the target is prone might help you via the usual attack modifiers for being prone.)
jaelis 03-14-08, 06:51 AM	Per attack roll. Youve got 2 attack rolls, so 2 precision damages. See the text: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
WackyOne 03-14-08, 07:56 AM	It's still a good one for a precision-damage guy - one more feat, and he can take Greater Manyshot, which works just like Krusk said ;)
Krusk 03-14-08, 08:30 AM	See the text: This implys only one sneak attack a round ever, which is wrong. You can apply prescision based damage on every attack that qualifies for one. With rapid shot you get 2 attacks. Combined with many shot you get multiple arrows with each attack. Here we have 2 attacks, so 2 prescision based damages. See response #1 for a further explanation.
jaelis 03-14-08, 09:11 AM	Krusk, the text of manyshot specifically gives an exception to the general rule. Edit- and of course BugHunter is also correct, Manyshot gives only one attack roll anyway. If you were saying you would get two SA's if you combined manyshot with rapid shot, then I understand your point, but as BH says, you can't do that. I probably misunderstood what the OP was asking originally.
BugHunter 03-14-08, 09:14 AM	This implys only one sneak attack a round ever, which is wrong. You can apply prescision based damage on every attack that qualifies for one. With rapid shot you get 2 attacks. Combined with many shot you get multiple arrows with each attack. Here we have 2 attacks, so 2 prescision based damages. See response #1 for a further explanation. Rapid shot and manyshot can not be used in the same round since rapid shot is a full round action and many shot is a standard action. The reason for many shot only allowing precision based damage once is there is only one attack roll for all arrows.
Krusk 03-14-08, 11:42 AM	"Rapid Shot [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Point Blank Shot. Benefit You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat." Hyperlinksrd http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm Rapid shot requires you to spend a full round action, that does not make it a full round action. Also im sure this is covered in the FAQ somewhere, im gonna go look. *Turns out im wrong, and they are right. Ignore my arguements, for anything aside from entertainment purposes.
Arminel 03-14-08, 12:31 PM	Remember that ranged attacks against a prone target take a -4 penalty. You aren't flat-footed while on the ground, but you would be against an invisible attacker.
Baninor 03-16-08, 09:00 AM	Actually, unless the target is completely unaware of you Only 1 of your attacks will catch him flatfooted. After the first shot you drop out of invis and he can see you and is no longer "blind" to you. So you'll end up dealing 4d6 (assuming you hit twice) unless its the opening round of combat and he's flatfooted or its the first time you reveal your presence (say your hiding since the battle has started and are treated as a "new combatant")
Wharin 03-16-08, 02:59 PM	Actually, unless the target is completely unaware of you Only 1 of your attacks will catch him flatfooted. After the first shot you drop out of invis and he can see you and is no longer "blind" to you. So you'll end up dealing 4d6 (assuming you hit twice) unless its the opening round of combat and he's flatfooted or its the first time you reveal your presence (say your hiding since the battle has started and are treated as a "new combatant") Actually for the case of the ninja, attacking using your Ki Step Invisibility does not automatically drop you out of Invisibility. The ability states that you are invisible for one round, and makes no mention of popping once you attack, like the spell does. That said, never playing an archer, I never read up on rapid shot or multi shot or what have you (and how that reacts to you adding precision damage) so I am not sure if that ultimately changes the damage, however.
Baninor 03-16-08, 03:36 PM	Aha you are indeed right. I've always [misread] it as saying turns you invisible as the spell. Which it doesn't. It says you gain the stats effect of invisible which in the DMG does not say anything about losing the effect if you attack.
Radijs 03-16-08, 07:03 PM	I've played with a ninja in my party who used the same or a similar build. It was never really overpowered. It was nice but using your KI points will make sure you run out very quickly.
Operation_Shoestring 03-17-08, 02:17 AM	What i've been hearing is that Ninjas are UNDER powered compared to rogues. Rogues get better skill selection and more points, and have those cool HLA's. Ninja's get a few nifty abilities, but once you get up to higher levels, they are too easily countered by magic.
Krusk 03-17-08, 02:34 AM	What i've been hearing is that Ninjas are UNDER powered compared to rogues. Rogues get better skill selection and more points, and have those cool HLA's. Ninja's get a few nifty abilities, but once you get up to higher levels, they are too easily countered by magic. That is generally the consensus of the boards, as far as i have heard and experienced in my own games. Yes. I find their only cool and useful ability is ki invisability, otherwise they are fairly usless compared to rogues.
Wharin 03-17-08, 04:21 AM	The one (possibly) big advantage the ninja has is that she can theorhetically solo enemies with more ease than a rogue could. That said, they don't have as much staying power (those Ki points aren't unlimited) as a rogue who simply learns to be a team player and work the flank.
Baninor 03-17-08, 07:28 PM	It also depends heavily on the campaign power. If its 25 - 28 points, Ninja's need way too many points for dex, wis, int, con, str. If its rolled and you get a good roll, I think Ninjas are more powerful than rogues. Not that many creatures have Blindsight (A lot with blindsense, but that won't prevent sudden strikes) or see invis/true sight. It also depends on your party composition, whenever I end up playing a rogue or roguesk character I end up being the only melee so my sneak attack becomes useeless. Ninja's wouldn't have this this problem. But honestly Assassins win the game still, their spells make them so damn powerful.
Operation_Shoestring 03-19-08, 07:13 PM	It also depends heavily on the campaign power. If its 25 - 28 points, Ninja's need way too many points for dex, wis, int, con, str. If its rolled and you get a good roll, I think Ninjas are more powerful than rogues. Not that many creatures have Blindsight (A lot with blindsense, but that won't prevent sudden strikes) or see invis/true sight. It also depends on your party composition, whenever I end up playing a rogue or roguesk character I end up being the only melee so my sneak attack becomes useeless. Ninja's wouldn't have this this problem. But honestly Assassins win the game still, their spells make them so damn powerful. What kind of funky drugs are you on? Assassins? Assassins suck. Death Attack can be useful in some situations, but you're typically not going to get 3 rounds to stick around. And if you want casting on a rogue, Unseen Seer is the way to go, by far. Or if you don't want to multi-class, Trapsmith gives you some spells and grants class abilities which are actually useful. Ninja's invisibility and other su abilities are easily countered once enemies get to throw around 3rd level spells on a regular basis. Rogues can still count on flank buddies and better skills, and stay useful. The only high level ninja's that seem viable, as far as i've seen, are the ones that prestige into Avenging Executioner.