Incarnum Feats, and Soulmelds/Binding, help. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incarnum Feats, and Soulmelds/Binding, help. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kurama Youko
10-29-07, 09:33 AM Okay, im some what confused or maybe I missed something when I was glancing over the book, but is binding a soulmeld to a chakra point the only way to gain any benefit from a soulmeld?

Example: Say I make a Azurin Favored Soul and take two Soul Meld feats, one for Impulse Boots and one for Wormtail Belt, let's say I also took Incarnum Spellcasting.

Now to gain the evasion ability of the Impulse Boots I know I have to bind that soulmeld to my feet chakra, however do I have to invest or use any essentia to bind it to my feet?

What I'm really most confused on is this. If I took Soulmeld Wormtail Belt, but I don't have the chakra center (waist) then I can't bind the Wormtail Belt to that center, but does that mean I can't use the Soulmeld at all? Is there any other way to use a soulmeld that you don't have the chakra point for? All I really want from this Soulmeld is the Natural Armor enhancement, this is listed above the essentia investment text, so I guess what im trying to say is, can I soulmeld be melded but not binded to a chakra point? So that I gain in this case the natural armor bonus but not the binded power?
Eerongal
10-29-07, 11:05 AM each soulmeld has a base effect, an effect from invested essentia, and an effect when bound. The base effect happens from just having it shaped, and are the benefits found on the tables listing all of the melds by chakra for each class. The essentia effect happens when you invest essentia into it, and generally gets more powerful the more you do so. The bind effect happens whenever you have it bound to the specified chakra. You always have the base effect, you only have the essentia and bound effect when those situations are true.

Hope this helps!
Kurama Youko
10-29-07, 11:25 AM Okay, so I have the base effect as so long as I have the soulmeld, cool. So I don't need to bind the Soulmeld to any particular chakra point? I think I got that. How long does it take to make a soulmeld though, I mean I know its a swift action to invest essentia into a meld, but i never saw how long it takes to form a meld.

Also if I don't bind a meld to a particular chakra I can still benefit from magic items that would normally use that space right? Like in the example, If I have the Wormtail Belt soulmeld but its not bound to my waist, I can still wear a monks belt right?
Cainin
10-29-07, 11:46 AM 1) Soulmelds are set up for Incarnum characters during a period in the morning. It's basically similar to the same way a Sorceror refreshes their spell slots. Only you're readjusting your souldmelds and chakra binds.

2) You are correct that a standard unbound souldmeld can be used simultaneously with a magic item in the same slot. Though through a feat in MoI, you could have both bound soulmelds and magic items in the same slot. (Though only one slot benefits each time you take the feat.)
Eerongal
10-29-07, 11:48 AM You prepare soulmelds after 8 hours of rest once per day, akin to preparing spells, and it takes an hour to shape all of your soulmelds. They remain shaped until you choose to unshape them. Which means that if you shape all of the sames one everyday, you don't have to shape them every day, just once.

And yes, only BOUND soul melds stop you from using items on that chakra.

Also note that soul melds gained through the shape soulmeld feat are formed everyday, and do not take one of your available soulmelds you can shape. For example, if your meldshaper class lets you form 3 soul melds, and you take shape soul meld, you can form 4 soul melds everyday, one of which has to be the one you took the feat for. You can bind any soul meld gianed through the feat as normal for your shaper class.
strenoth
10-30-07, 01:12 AM Also note that soul melds gained through the shape soulmeld feat are formed everyday, and do not take one of your available soulmelds you can shape. For example, if your meldshaper class lets you form 3 soul melds, and you take shape soul meld, you can form 4 soul melds everyday, one of which has to be the one you took the feat for. You can bind any soul meld gained through the feat as normal for your shaper class.

hmmm, could you point out a reference for that? I've never seen anything that said that. Mind, I would be happy if it were so, i just haven't seen it.

Oh, and a note: please remember that you an NOT bind any soulmeld with out either the proper class feature or feat.
Eerongal
10-30-07, 09:50 AM hmmm, could you point out a reference for that? I've never seen anything that said that. Mind, I would be happy if it were so, i just haven't seen it.

Oh, and a note: please remember that you an NOT bind any soulmeld with out either the proper class feature or feat.

hey, sure thing. Off hand i can't cite any specific rules stating that is how it works (i'm away from book until much later tonight), however, i can explain why it works that way, at least so it seems to me. This feat is available to anyone, meldshaper or not. All it requires is a con of 13. The feat description says that it lets you "Shape a specific soulmeld". If it didn't work in this manner, non-meldshapers wouldn't be able to use the feat at all, because if they needed to have meldshaper levels to shape it, it obviously couldn't work. It even reccomends this feat for non-meldshapers at the beggining of the book. Now, someone could argue that it would work differently for meldshapers, saying it just adds it to the list of melds they can shape, however it has no such clause stating that it does so, which means we have to assume it does not. The only thing that it even hints at in the way of existing meldshaper levels is the fact that it says that "If you have essentia you can invest as par normal" and "If you can bind soulmelds to a chakra, you can bind it as par normal" (of course those are both paraphrased.)

For a theoretically similiar ideal, i point you to martial study from Tome of battle. This feat lets non-initiators (isn't that what they're called?) ready a certain maneuver. Everytime they take that feat, they have another specifically selected maneuver available to them once per battle. However, unlike shape soulmeld, this one has a clause if the character is an initiator, which is it specifically says that instead of functioning this way, it instead adds it to the list of maneuvers they can ready.

Now, I'm not saying this is concrete in how it's supposed to work, but is and has been my interpretation of it. If you want to counter with any argument, feel free, i will certainly consider it. I can say that me and my group have used it in this manner since we started using MoI about a year and a half ago, and it's certainly not broken by any degree, because you are still limited in how many you can shape by your Con, you are limited by the normal rules where you can bind, etc. Also note that you're still shaping it at 1/2 meldshaper level even if you're a full shaper for all your other melds.
vorpo
10-30-07, 04:06 PM An Incarnate 5 can normally shape 4 soulmelds a day. With this feat, is he able to shape 5 a day now? Is the feat's soulmeld in addition to what's granted by meldshaping class?

No, it would be separate from the meldshaping class. So an Incarnate 5 would still have his 4 normal soulmelds plus the one specifically chosen for the feat, with that soulmeld equal to one-half your character level.

So, it is correct that you can always shape the soulmeld you gained from the Shape Soulmeld feat in addition to whatever classes granting you soulmelds.
Eerongal
10-30-07, 04:18 PM So, it is correct that you can always shape the soulmeld you gained from the Shape Soulmeld feat in addition to whatever classes granting you soulmelds.

that's the way i was interpreting it, because it wouldnt make sense as written any other way. Pretty nice to get all those misc. melds that you could see yourself using often that aren't on your class list. Like blink shirt as an incarnate. (even though you can miss out on the awesome totem binds from totemist that way, as you don't have a totem chakra.)
strenoth
10-31-07, 01:06 AM Hmmm, you know, that's very very useful to keep track of. I need to go double check what a character of mine can really do now...
Mystyc
10-31-07, 01:12 AM This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.)
Dead_Weasel
10-31-07, 02:01 AM This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.)Unshaping a Meld
Generally speaking, a soulmeld remains shaped until the meldshaper chooses to unshape it in favor of another soulmeld. Sometimes, however, a soulmeld is designed to unshape as part of its function. The arms chakra bind of the bloodwar gauntlets, for example, allows you to unshape the soulmeld to deliver damage to nearby creatures.RAW you cannot - you have to reshape your melds in order to fiddle with them, or be targeted by some effect/activate some ability that would unshape one or more of them. Houseruling the ability to unshape a soulmeld (without reshaping a replacement, of course) is something that I consider reasonable, since it is almost always better to have the meld active anyway. As a full-round action, maybe? AoOs seem excessive for a character deactivating a useful ability.

Other options for your specific case would be any magical darkness effect or HiPS, although the first is a poor option and the second is difficult to get.
Eerongal
10-31-07, 09:18 AM This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.)

technically, i don't think that the mantle of flame affects your sneaking ability in any capacity. However, I'm going from memory at the moment, anyone know for sure?
vorpo
10-31-07, 10:31 AM that's the way i was interpreting it, because it wouldnt make sense as written any other way. Pretty nice to get all those misc. melds that you could see yourself using often that aren't on your class list. Like blink shirt as an incarnate. (even though you can miss out on the awesome totem binds from totemist that way, as you don't have a totem chakra.)

Still remember tho, the soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld feat has a different meldshaper value (most likely) than the others
Eerongal
10-31-07, 10:42 AM Still remember tho, the soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld feat has a different meldshaper value (most likely) than the others

yeah, but for alot of them, meldshaper level doesn't play that big of a role. Usually essentia and binds are more a determining factor of how useful they are.
Mystyc
10-31-07, 11:25 AM technically, i don't think that the mantle of flame affects your sneaking ability in any capacity. However, I'm going from memory at the moment, anyone know for sure?

It creates shadowy illumination in your square. You can still try to hide, but you would lose the cover of total darkness, which this character would probably be depending on - he's not very skillful when it comes down to it. This is more of a theoretical, really.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kurama Youko 10-29-07, 09:33 AM	Okay, im some what confused or maybe I missed something when I was glancing over the book, but is binding a soulmeld to a chakra point the only way to gain any benefit from a soulmeld? Example: Say I make a Azurin Favored Soul and take two Soul Meld feats, one for Impulse Boots and one for Wormtail Belt, let's say I also took Incarnum Spellcasting. Now to gain the evasion ability of the Impulse Boots I know I have to bind that soulmeld to my feet chakra, however do I have to invest or use any essentia to bind it to my feet? What I'm really most confused on is this. If I took Soulmeld Wormtail Belt, but I don't have the chakra center (waist) then I can't bind the Wormtail Belt to that center, but does that mean I can't use the Soulmeld at all? Is there any other way to use a soulmeld that you don't have the chakra point for? All I really want from this Soulmeld is the Natural Armor enhancement, this is listed above the essentia investment text, so I guess what im trying to say is, can I soulmeld be melded but not binded to a chakra point? So that I gain in this case the natural armor bonus but not the binded power?
Eerongal 10-29-07, 11:05 AM	each soulmeld has a base effect, an effect from invested essentia, and an effect when bound. The base effect happens from just having it shaped, and are the benefits found on the tables listing all of the melds by chakra for each class. The essentia effect happens when you invest essentia into it, and generally gets more powerful the more you do so. The bind effect happens whenever you have it bound to the specified chakra. You always have the base effect, you only have the essentia and bound effect when those situations are true. Hope this helps!
Kurama Youko 10-29-07, 11:25 AM	Okay, so I have the base effect as so long as I have the soulmeld, cool. So I don't need to bind the Soulmeld to any particular chakra point? I think I got that. How long does it take to make a soulmeld though, I mean I know its a swift action to invest essentia into a meld, but i never saw how long it takes to form a meld. Also if I don't bind a meld to a particular chakra I can still benefit from magic items that would normally use that space right? Like in the example, If I have the Wormtail Belt soulmeld but its not bound to my waist, I can still wear a monks belt right?
Cainin 10-29-07, 11:46 AM	1) Soulmelds are set up for Incarnum characters during a period in the morning. It's basically similar to the same way a Sorceror refreshes their spell slots. Only you're readjusting your souldmelds and chakra binds. 2) You are correct that a standard unbound souldmeld can be used simultaneously with a magic item in the same slot. Though through a feat in MoI, you could have both bound soulmelds and magic items in the same slot. (Though only one slot benefits each time you take the feat.)
Eerongal 10-29-07, 11:48 AM	You prepare soulmelds after 8 hours of rest once per day, akin to preparing spells, and it takes an hour to shape all of your soulmelds. They remain shaped until you choose to unshape them. Which means that if you shape all of the sames one everyday, you don't have to shape them every day, just once. And yes, only BOUND soul melds stop you from using items on that chakra. Also note that soul melds gained through the shape soulmeld feat are formed everyday, and do not take one of your available soulmelds you can shape. For example, if your meldshaper class lets you form 3 soul melds, and you take shape soul meld, you can form 4 soul melds everyday, one of which has to be the one you took the feat for. You can bind any soul meld gianed through the feat as normal for your shaper class.
strenoth 10-30-07, 01:12 AM	Also note that soul melds gained through the shape soulmeld feat are formed everyday, and do not take one of your available soulmelds you can shape. For example, if your meldshaper class lets you form 3 soul melds, and you take shape soul meld, you can form 4 soul melds everyday, one of which has to be the one you took the feat for. You can bind any soul meld gained through the feat as normal for your shaper class. hmmm, could you point out a reference for that? I've never seen anything that said that. Mind, I would be happy if it were so, i just haven't seen it. Oh, and a note: please remember that you an NOT bind any soulmeld with out either the proper class feature or feat.
Eerongal 10-30-07, 09:50 AM	hmmm, could you point out a reference for that? I've never seen anything that said that. Mind, I would be happy if it were so, i just haven't seen it. Oh, and a note: please remember that you an NOT bind any soulmeld with out either the proper class feature or feat. hey, sure thing. Off hand i can't cite any specific rules stating that is how it works (i'm away from book until much later tonight), however, i can explain why it works that way, at least so it seems to me. This feat is available to anyone, meldshaper or not. All it requires is a con of 13. The feat description says that it lets you "Shape a specific soulmeld". If it didn't work in this manner, non-meldshapers wouldn't be able to use the feat at all, because if they needed to have meldshaper levels to shape it, it obviously couldn't work. It even reccomends this feat for non-meldshapers at the beggining of the book. Now, someone could argue that it would work differently for meldshapers, saying it just adds it to the list of melds they can shape, however it has no such clause stating that it does so, which means we have to assume it does not. The only thing that it even hints at in the way of existing meldshaper levels is the fact that it says that "If you have essentia you can invest as par normal" and "If you can bind soulmelds to a chakra, you can bind it as par normal" (of course those are both paraphrased.) For a theoretically similiar ideal, i point you to martial study from Tome of battle. This feat lets non-initiators (isn't that what they're called?) ready a certain maneuver. Everytime they take that feat, they have another specifically selected maneuver available to them once per battle. However, unlike shape soulmeld, this one has a clause if the character is an initiator, which is it specifically says that instead of functioning this way, it instead adds it to the list of maneuvers they can ready. Now, I'm not saying this is concrete in how it's supposed to work, but is and has been my interpretation of it. If you want to counter with any argument, feel free, i will certainly consider it. I can say that me and my group have used it in this manner since we started using MoI about a year and a half ago, and it's certainly not broken by any degree, because you are still limited in how many you can shape by your Con, you are limited by the normal rules where you can bind, etc. Also note that you're still shaping it at 1/2 meldshaper level even if you're a full shaper for all your other melds.
vorpo 10-30-07, 04:06 PM	An Incarnate 5 can normally shape 4 soulmelds a day. With this feat, is he able to shape 5 a day now? Is the feat's soulmeld in addition to what's granted by meldshaping class? No, it would be separate from the meldshaping class. So an Incarnate 5 would still have his 4 normal soulmelds plus the one specifically chosen for the feat, with that soulmeld equal to one-half your character level. So, it is correct that you can always shape the soulmeld you gained from the Shape Soulmeld feat in addition to whatever classes granting you soulmelds.
Eerongal 10-30-07, 04:18 PM	So, it is correct that you can always shape the soulmeld you gained from the Shape Soulmeld feat in addition to whatever classes granting you soulmelds. that's the way i was interpreting it, because it wouldnt make sense as written any other way. Pretty nice to get all those misc. melds that you could see yourself using often that aren't on your class list. Like blink shirt as an incarnate. (even though you can miss out on the awesome totem binds from totemist that way, as you don't have a totem chakra.)
strenoth 10-31-07, 01:06 AM	Hmmm, you know, that's very very useful to keep track of. I need to go double check what a character of mine can really do now...
Mystyc 10-31-07, 01:12 AM	This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.)
Dead_Weasel 10-31-07, 02:01 AM	This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.)Unshaping a Meld Generally speaking, a soulmeld remains shaped until the meldshaper chooses to unshape it in favor of another soulmeld. Sometimes, however, a soulmeld is designed to unshape as part of its function. The arms chakra bind of the bloodwar gauntlets, for example, allows you to unshape the soulmeld to deliver damage to nearby creatures.RAW you cannot - you have to reshape your melds in order to fiddle with them, or be targeted by some effect/activate some ability that would unshape one or more of them. Houseruling the ability to unshape a soulmeld (without reshaping a replacement, of course) is something that I consider reasonable, since it is almost always better to have the meld active anyway. As a full-round action, maybe? AoOs seem excessive for a character deactivating a useful ability. Other options for your specific case would be any magical darkness effect or HiPS, although the first is a poor option and the second is difficult to get.
Eerongal 10-31-07, 09:18 AM	This seems like a good place to ask, what type of action is unshaping a soulmeld? For instance, if I want ot unshape my Mantle of Flame in order to sneak somewhere unseen, what does that take? (Obviously, I can't reshape it again until the next morning. This is a one-way transaction.) technically, i don't think that the mantle of flame affects your sneaking ability in any capacity. However, I'm going from memory at the moment, anyone know for sure?
vorpo 10-31-07, 10:31 AM	that's the way i was interpreting it, because it wouldnt make sense as written any other way. Pretty nice to get all those misc. melds that you could see yourself using often that aren't on your class list. Like blink shirt as an incarnate. (even though you can miss out on the awesome totem binds from totemist that way, as you don't have a totem chakra.) Still remember tho, the soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld feat has a different meldshaper value (most likely) than the others
Eerongal 10-31-07, 10:42 AM	Still remember tho, the soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld feat has a different meldshaper value (most likely) than the others yeah, but for alot of them, meldshaper level doesn't play that big of a role. Usually essentia and binds are more a determining factor of how useful they are.
Mystyc 10-31-07, 11:25 AM	technically, i don't think that the mantle of flame affects your sneaking ability in any capacity. However, I'm going from memory at the moment, anyone know for sure? It creates shadowy illumination in your square. You can still try to hide, but you would lose the cover of total darkness, which this character would probably be depending on - he's not very skillful when it comes down to it. This is more of a theoretical, really.