Increase in CHR among players [Archive] - Wizards Community

Increase in CHR among players [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Captn Blake
03-20-07, 08:47 PM Is it just me or does anyone else see an increase in the number of players that beef up their CHR scores these days?

I remember inthe AD&D days, CHR was the lonely red-headed step-child of the abilities*. (*NOTE - no offense to any red-headed step-children out there) But now with the introduction of game-critical CHR skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, etc, and classes that emphasize CHR, ... nobody in my group has a CHR below 14. Makes me happy.

Anyway... just thought it deserved a hooray. So, here it is:

hooray.
UnknownMourner
03-20-07, 08:55 PM It's because so many classes cast on it. With the push towards spontaneous casters and the overarching "spontaneous must be force of personality" design decision CHA is quite a high average stat in most groups.

Actually, it seems to get either a 16+ or a 6 or 8. So i guess the average is still low.

Wisdom is defiantly the lowball stat now.
Kradlo
03-20-07, 10:00 PM As a GM, I've always tried to make all abilities useful. I never minded if a player used one ability as his "dump stat," because I could always find ways to remind him of his shortcomings.

Heck, I played a goblin ninja in an Eberron game (Charisma 6), and became the party spokesperson (spokesmonster?) when confronted by the Dwarf sergeant of the city guard. It was most entertaining.

:dancin:
NoldorForce
03-20-07, 11:57 PM Additionally, Charisma has the most "X stat to Y bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889)" applications by far with the proliferation of things that attempt to reduce its dump-stat feel.
Polaris
03-21-07, 02:52 AM Catpn Blake,

Not sure what your experiences are, but in my overwhelming experience, Charisma is far and away the most dumpable stat (followed by Wisdom). Either the player is using a class/build that is strongly charisma dependant or they (typically) don't put any build points into the stat at all (nor on a purely mechanical basis should they).

Thus IMX Charismas of 8 or even 6 are pretty much the norm unless the player is playing a charisma based class/build.

-Polaris
Roxlimn
03-21-07, 06:46 AM Dex is by far the most important ability, of course, since every character and monster in the game has to have massive modifiers to the Tumble skill.
Draxo
03-21-07, 11:36 AM I just find diplomacy to be a great skill now that all the modifiers and DC's are listed. I always like to see a 10+ there asap. So i like to have a decent charisma (10+ again, but preferably a bonus if i can get hold of one)

I never dump stat cha. I know that your looks isnt your cha, but that old thought dies hard..
Polaris
03-21-07, 01:42 PM I just find diplomacy to be a great skill now that all the modifiers and DC's are listed. I always like to see a 10+ there asap. So i like to have a decent charisma (10+ again, but preferably a bonus if i can get hold of one)

I never dump stat cha. I know that your looks isnt your cha, but that old thought dies hard..

Draxo,

I agree that Diplomacy is (or at least can be) a great skill. However, if you want to get the most out of diplomacy, you want a high Int rather than Charisma.

1. Diplomacy has fixed DCs and those DCs are rather low.
2. Pretty much any character can get at least +4 synergy bonus for Diplomacy starting in level 2, and some (those with Sense Motive, Bluff, AND Knowledge, Nob/Royalty) can get up to +6 at the same level. That's better than pretty much any charisma bonus at low levels and far cheaper besides.

The point being is that the myth you should have a high charisma to be an effective diplomat is just that: A myth.

-Polaris
DarkRhystar
03-21-07, 01:48 PM The point being is that the myth you should have a high charisma to be an effective diplomat is just that: A myth.

Thank you for dispelling a myth no one was claiming true. :P
Polaris
03-21-07, 01:53 PM Thank you for dispelling a myth no one was claiming true. :P

Actually a number of posters over the years have claimed at least implicitly it was true including Draxo just now (albeit implicitly). Whenever a discussion comes up with regard to the mechanical value of charisma there are at least a small group of people (and often more than that) that point to the diplomacy skill and how good it is as a reason to boost your charisma or at least not dump it.

As I just showed, in of itself this reasoning is flawed.

-Polaris
jameswilliamogle
03-21-07, 02:10 PM I'm glad they made it significant beyond just followers (as 1st and 2nd ed. had it), but I'd postulate that it has become too good.

Cha has become disproportionately more important than most of the other stats, in low-level all the way to high-level play: it remains really powerful throughout all stages of the game. The X stat to Y bonus thread is a great example of this. In core, its power is truly remarkable, but after adding all the other things you can get with it, it gets crazy good (relative to the other stats, anyways). Smite, Snowflake Wardancer, Deflection bonuses to AC (for incorporealness), bonus spells, convincing enemies to "go away", HP (as certain undead), etc etc.

The level-unequivalency thing is a major problem with DnD in its current incarnation, but its better now than it has ever been in the past. There just hasn't been a great design yet to keep all the classes, abilities, and all, at equal power throughout all the levels yet (for example, Wizard power increasing dramatically after 11th, Fighters power decreasing pretty badly past 5th, etc). Still, its better than previous editions (sort of: overall I think its better).

If they could fix this for 4th ed, I'd gladly pick up that set... but until then, I don't think anything will change, as the die has already been set, so to speak.
Polaris
03-21-07, 02:19 PM I'm glad they made it significant beyond just followers (as 1st and 2nd ed. had it), but I'd postulate that it has become too good.

Cha has become disproportionately more important than most of the other stats, in low-level all the way to high-level play: it remains really powerful throughout all stages of the game. The X stat to Y bonus thread is a great example of this. In core, its power is truly remarkable, but after adding all the other things you can get with it, it gets crazy good (relative to the other stats, anyways). Smite, Snowflake Wardancer, Deflection bonuses to AC (for incorporealness), bonus spells, convincing enemies to "go away", HP (as certain undead), etc etc.

I'd argue rather that the X stat to Y bonus thing has been done for a lot of special cases precisely because charisma is such a weak stat otherwise. This sort of thing doesn't mean the stat is (too) good. It means that the patch designed to fix a poorly designed stat isn't working. Charisma is eminantly dumpable (and IMX usually is) for the general case and that's the problem.

-Polaris
jameswilliamogle
03-21-07, 03:44 PM I'd argue rather that the X stat to Y bonus thing has been done for a lot of special cases precisely because charisma is such a weak stat otherwise. This sort of thing doesn't mean the stat is (too) good. It means that the patch designed to fix a poorly designed stat isn't working. Charisma is eminantly dumpable (and IMX usually is) for the general case and that's the problem.

-Polaris
Fair enough; I don't think what you posted necessarily invalidates what I stated, though. If you considered the newer stuff that goes off of Cha to be a patch, it surely didn't need to be fixed in the first place, I think. I think it more likely that it wasn't a fix, but rather something just to add to it for special cases (example: melee bards, for example).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Captn Blake 03-20-07, 08:47 PM	Is it just me or does anyone else see an increase in the number of players that beef up their CHR scores these days? I remember inthe AD&D days, CHR was the lonely red-headed step-child of the abilities. (NOTE - no offense to any red-headed step-children out there) But now with the introduction of game-critical CHR skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, etc, and classes that emphasize CHR, ... nobody in my group has a CHR below 14. Makes me happy. Anyway... just thought it deserved a hooray. So, here it is: hooray.
UnknownMourner 03-20-07, 08:55 PM	It's because so many classes cast on it. With the push towards spontaneous casters and the overarching "spontaneous must be force of personality" design decision CHA is quite a high average stat in most groups. Actually, it seems to get either a 16+ or a 6 or 8. So i guess the average is still low. Wisdom is defiantly the lowball stat now.
Kradlo 03-20-07, 10:00 PM	As a GM, I've always tried to make all abilities useful. I never minded if a player used one ability as his "dump stat," because I could always find ways to remind him of his shortcomings. Heck, I played a goblin ninja in an Eberron game (Charisma 6), and became the party spokesperson (spokesmonster?) when confronted by the Dwarf sergeant of the city guard. It was most entertaining. :dancin:
NoldorForce 03-20-07, 11:57 PM	Additionally, Charisma has the most "X stat to Y bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889)" applications by far with the proliferation of things that attempt to reduce its dump-stat feel.
Polaris 03-21-07, 02:52 AM	Catpn Blake, Not sure what your experiences are, but in my overwhelming experience, Charisma is far and away the most dumpable stat (followed by Wisdom). Either the player is using a class/build that is strongly charisma dependant or they (typically) don't put any build points into the stat at all (nor on a purely mechanical basis should they). Thus IMX Charismas of 8 or even 6 are pretty much the norm unless the player is playing a charisma based class/build. -Polaris
Roxlimn 03-21-07, 06:46 AM	Dex is by far the most important ability, of course, since every character and monster in the game has to have massive modifiers to the Tumble skill.
Draxo 03-21-07, 11:36 AM	I just find diplomacy to be a great skill now that all the modifiers and DC's are listed. I always like to see a 10+ there asap. So i like to have a decent charisma (10+ again, but preferably a bonus if i can get hold of one) I never dump stat cha. I know that your looks isnt your cha, but that old thought dies hard..
Polaris 03-21-07, 01:42 PM	I just find diplomacy to be a great skill now that all the modifiers and DC's are listed. I always like to see a 10+ there asap. So i like to have a decent charisma (10+ again, but preferably a bonus if i can get hold of one) I never dump stat cha. I know that your looks isnt your cha, but that old thought dies hard.. Draxo, I agree that Diplomacy is (or at least can be) a great skill. However, if you want to get the most out of diplomacy, you want a high Int rather than Charisma. 1. Diplomacy has fixed DCs and those DCs are rather low. 2. Pretty much any character can get at least +4 synergy bonus for Diplomacy starting in level 2, and some (those with Sense Motive, Bluff, AND Knowledge, Nob/Royalty) can get up to +6 at the same level. That's better than pretty much any charisma bonus at low levels and far cheaper besides. The point being is that the myth you should have a high charisma to be an effective diplomat is just that: A myth. -Polaris
DarkRhystar 03-21-07, 01:48 PM	The point being is that the myth you should have a high charisma to be an effective diplomat is just that: A myth. Thank you for dispelling a myth no one was claiming true. :P
Polaris 03-21-07, 01:53 PM	Thank you for dispelling a myth no one was claiming true. :P Actually a number of posters over the years have claimed at least implicitly it was true including Draxo just now (albeit implicitly). Whenever a discussion comes up with regard to the mechanical value of charisma there are at least a small group of people (and often more than that) that point to the diplomacy skill and how good it is as a reason to boost your charisma or at least not dump it. As I just showed, in of itself this reasoning is flawed. -Polaris
jameswilliamogle 03-21-07, 02:10 PM	I'm glad they made it significant beyond just followers (as 1st and 2nd ed. had it), but I'd postulate that it has become too good. Cha has become disproportionately more important than most of the other stats, in low-level all the way to high-level play: it remains really powerful throughout all stages of the game. The X stat to Y bonus thread is a great example of this. In core, its power is truly remarkable, but after adding all the other things you can get with it, it gets crazy good (relative to the other stats, anyways). Smite, Snowflake Wardancer, Deflection bonuses to AC (for incorporealness), bonus spells, convincing enemies to "go away", HP (as certain undead), etc etc. The level-unequivalency thing is a major problem with DnD in its current incarnation, but its better now than it has ever been in the past. There just hasn't been a great design yet to keep all the classes, abilities, and all, at equal power throughout all the levels yet (for example, Wizard power increasing dramatically after 11th, Fighters power decreasing pretty badly past 5th, etc). Still, its better than previous editions (sort of: overall I think its better). If they could fix this for 4th ed, I'd gladly pick up that set... but until then, I don't think anything will change, as the die has already been set, so to speak.
Polaris 03-21-07, 02:19 PM	I'm glad they made it significant beyond just followers (as 1st and 2nd ed. had it), but I'd postulate that it has become too good. Cha has become disproportionately more important than most of the other stats, in low-level all the way to high-level play: it remains really powerful throughout all stages of the game. The X stat to Y bonus thread is a great example of this. In core, its power is truly remarkable, but after adding all the other things you can get with it, it gets crazy good (relative to the other stats, anyways). Smite, Snowflake Wardancer, Deflection bonuses to AC (for incorporealness), bonus spells, convincing enemies to "go away", HP (as certain undead), etc etc. I'd argue rather that the X stat to Y bonus thing has been done for a lot of special cases precisely because charisma is such a weak stat otherwise. This sort of thing doesn't mean the stat is (too) good. It means that the patch designed to fix a poorly designed stat isn't working. Charisma is eminantly dumpable (and IMX usually is) for the general case and that's the problem. -Polaris
jameswilliamogle 03-21-07, 03:44 PM	I'd argue rather that the X stat to Y bonus thing has been done for a lot of special cases precisely because charisma is such a weak stat otherwise. This sort of thing doesn't mean the stat is (too) good. It means that the patch designed to fix a poorly designed stat isn't working. Charisma is eminantly dumpable (and IMX usually is) for the general case and that's the problem. -Polaris Fair enough; I don't think what you posted necessarily invalidates what I stated, though. If you considered the newer stuff that goes off of Cha to be a patch, it surely didn't need to be fixed in the first place, I think. I think it more likely that it wasn't a fix, but rather something just to add to it for special cases (example: melee bards, for example).