Insightful Reflexes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Insightful Reflexes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AnonymousInternets
10-08-07, 02:07 AM This feat, from Complete Adventurer, strikes me as a bit too good for int-based casters and skillers... is that just me?
Johnny_Angel
10-08-07, 02:13 AM You have a point, but it's not much different from Weapon Finesse being good for Dex based melee types. There's also Force of Personality which allows you to use Charisma for will saves. There are a bunch of feats like that, and they usually do benefit classes which rely on those abilities a lot; however, in some cases you might want to use that feat slot for something else.
AnonymousInternets
10-08-07, 02:17 AM Force of Personality only applies to mind-affecting abilities, and even if you change it to apply to all will saves, Cha needs a purpose-boost much more than Int does.

Weapon Finesse makes sense, though, and only applies to one half of attacking. :S
DM Zoc
10-08-07, 02:20 AM Indightful Reflexes is only better than Improved Initiative if your Int is more than 8 points higher than your Dex. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I've seen any character with less than 10 Dex, and high-end caster generally don't have a lot of feats lying around anyway. As a DM, I'd rather the clumsy Wizard take this than something like Sudden Maximize.
AnonymousInternets
10-08-07, 02:23 AM Indightful Reflexes is only better than Improved Initiative if your Int is more than 8 points higher than your Dex. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I've seen any character with less than 10 Dex, and high-end caster generally don't have a lot of feats lying around anyway. As a DM, I'd rather the clumsy Wizard take this than something like Sudden Maximize.
It's for Reflex Saves, not initiatives.

IE wizards quicker than rogues becomes common (from what I've seen).
DM Zoc
10-08-07, 02:42 AM It's for Reflex Saves, not initiatives.

IE wizards quicker than rogues becomes common (from what I've seen).

That teaches me to work from memory.

Still, my point is the same, except with smaller numbers. Rogues have good Reflex saves, and their Dex is almost as important as a Wizard's Int. I suppose the Wizard with this feat might have a better Reflex save than one of the many low-Dex Rogue builds, but that's only part of the equation.

It makes some amount of sense to me that someone who can process incoming information on a superior level would have an advantage on jumping out of the way of something. This probably comes from playing the many other systems where reflexes are governed by a combination of the equivalent Int and Dex stats.

That being said, a Wizard with a +12 Reflex saves is easily not as hyper-ninja-esque as a Rogue with a +9. Most Reflex saves are on Save-for-half type spells. A Rogue of second level or higher takes no damage from such spells, so on average over the course of ten or a hundred fireballs, the Rogue's Reflexes will have saved him from far more damage than the Wizard's numerically superior save bonus. A high level Rogue often has Improved Evasion, which (for the purpose of save-for-half spells) is like being a Wizard with an infinitely large Reflex save.

Reflex saves are also disproportionately lethal to Wizards (with their d4 hit die), so I have no problem with them taking this feat.
wonlee76
10-08-07, 11:42 AM It doesn't seem too bad to me. Which classes rely on Int the most. Skill based classes (Bard/Rogue/Ranger) and Int based casters (Wizard). In both sets of classes, their dexterity scores should be above average (+2 modifier or higher) with the possibility that Dex is higher than Int (Rogue and Ranger in all liklihood).

In other words, a Wizard with a real low dex score is the one to get the most benefit out of it and a Wizard with a low dex score = deadmeat in my opinion since a wizard's ability to survive is to avoid being flat footed and being able to cast spells before the bad guys have time to react.
AnonymousInternets
10-09-07, 02:48 PM What do you think of steadfast determination? The same?
wonlee76
10-09-07, 03:26 PM What do you think of steadfast determination? The same?

If this is that feat that uses Con modifier instead of Wis modifier for Will Saves... then this one I would say is a lot more useful/powerful than Insightful Reflexes. The classes that usually will have a "better" use of a high con score will be the classes that usually have a low Will Save.

Whether that make steadfast determination "overpowered" is a matter of game balance as far as I'm concerned. Personally, if the PCs use this feat, a lot of bad guys with low Will Saves and high Con scores will be using this feat too and considering some of the monsters have Con Modifiers that get close to double digits and Wisdom modifiers are are crappy by comparison, this is a huge boost in overall difficulty in the game world in general.
war_thog
10-09-07, 09:05 PM I think Steadfast Determination is a ridiculous feat.
Its better than Force of Personality by a long shot and has nothing to do with will at all.

Weapon Finesse Im fine with, it makes sense.
Inishgtful reflexes is a bit hard to swallow. Intelligence has nothing to do with reflexes. Everyones reflexes act at the same speed, *from memory less than 200 miliseconds*
All conscious effort is slower than reflexes.
The 2 do not correlate.
Force of personality sort of makes sense, youre so full of yourself that there aint nothing but you controlling you! :P
Steadfast though?
I'm a fat dwarf! I get extra power to resist mind control!
Absolutely no connection at all.

In terms of game balance...... characters like fighters arent meant to have good will, wizards arent meant to have good reflex, etc.
These feats appear solely designed to increase power/decrease weaknesses with very little thought at all put into them.
What do you think the Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude feats are for?
aelryinth
10-09-07, 09:16 PM Steadfast Determination has Endurance as a pre-req. You think, oh, being tough enough to march 20 miles on a broken ankle (a Fortitude save) might not also convey the impression that you have a crapload of will power mentally as well as physically?

Fat Dwarf? A fat dwarf would have a low Con score. High Con is being tough and in great shape physically, not about body mass. 18 con, 3 str, you probably look like a Kenyan marathoner.

===Aelryinth
EjoThims
10-09-07, 09:29 PM Insightful Reflexes is a wonderful feat for Exemplars.

Double your Int bonus for Reflex saves.

:D
war_thog
10-10-07, 01:55 AM You know you could have a very high con and be fat.

Why do you think the Obese feat *in vile darkness* triples your weight and increases your con?

Endurance is not about marching 20 miles on a broken ankle.
Its about having the constitution to march 20 miles at all.

Having a broken ankle.... well you could argue thatd be a will save to ignore the pain. But then how broken is it? Hairline fracture?
Compound complete fractures?
Splintered?
Some of these cannot physically be walked on at all.

Which still has nothing to do with your constitution score.
Sounds more like the Iron Will feat to me ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnonymousInternets 10-08-07, 02:07 AM	This feat, from Complete Adventurer, strikes me as a bit too good for int-based casters and skillers... is that just me?
Johnny_Angel 10-08-07, 02:13 AM	You have a point, but it's not much different from Weapon Finesse being good for Dex based melee types. There's also Force of Personality which allows you to use Charisma for will saves. There are a bunch of feats like that, and they usually do benefit classes which rely on those abilities a lot; however, in some cases you might want to use that feat slot for something else.
AnonymousInternets 10-08-07, 02:17 AM	Force of Personality only applies to mind-affecting abilities, and even if you change it to apply to all will saves, Cha needs a purpose-boost much more than Int does. Weapon Finesse makes sense, though, and only applies to one half of attacking. :S
DM Zoc 10-08-07, 02:20 AM	Indightful Reflexes is only better than Improved Initiative if your Int is more than 8 points higher than your Dex. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I've seen any character with less than 10 Dex, and high-end caster generally don't have a lot of feats lying around anyway. As a DM, I'd rather the clumsy Wizard take this than something like Sudden Maximize.
AnonymousInternets 10-08-07, 02:23 AM	Indightful Reflexes is only better than Improved Initiative if your Int is more than 8 points higher than your Dex. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I've seen any character with less than 10 Dex, and high-end caster generally don't have a lot of feats lying around anyway. As a DM, I'd rather the clumsy Wizard take this than something like Sudden Maximize. It's for Reflex Saves, not initiatives. IE wizards quicker than rogues becomes common (from what I've seen).
DM Zoc 10-08-07, 02:42 AM	It's for Reflex Saves, not initiatives. IE wizards quicker than rogues becomes common (from what I've seen). That teaches me to work from memory. Still, my point is the same, except with smaller numbers. Rogues have good Reflex saves, and their Dex is almost as important as a Wizard's Int. I suppose the Wizard with this feat might have a better Reflex save than one of the many low-Dex Rogue builds, but that's only part of the equation. It makes some amount of sense to me that someone who can process incoming information on a superior level would have an advantage on jumping out of the way of something. This probably comes from playing the many other systems where reflexes are governed by a combination of the equivalent Int and Dex stats. That being said, a Wizard with a +12 Reflex saves is easily not as hyper-ninja-esque as a Rogue with a +9. Most Reflex saves are on Save-for-half type spells. A Rogue of second level or higher takes no damage from such spells, so on average over the course of ten or a hundred fireballs, the Rogue's Reflexes will have saved him from far more damage than the Wizard's numerically superior save bonus. A high level Rogue often has Improved Evasion, which (for the purpose of save-for-half spells) is like being a Wizard with an infinitely large Reflex save. Reflex saves are also disproportionately lethal to Wizards (with their d4 hit die), so I have no problem with them taking this feat.
wonlee76 10-08-07, 11:42 AM	It doesn't seem too bad to me. Which classes rely on Int the most. Skill based classes (Bard/Rogue/Ranger) and Int based casters (Wizard). In both sets of classes, their dexterity scores should be above average (+2 modifier or higher) with the possibility that Dex is higher than Int (Rogue and Ranger in all liklihood). In other words, a Wizard with a real low dex score is the one to get the most benefit out of it and a Wizard with a low dex score = deadmeat in my opinion since a wizard's ability to survive is to avoid being flat footed and being able to cast spells before the bad guys have time to react.
AnonymousInternets 10-09-07, 02:48 PM	What do you think of steadfast determination? The same?
wonlee76 10-09-07, 03:26 PM	What do you think of steadfast determination? The same? If this is that feat that uses Con modifier instead of Wis modifier for Will Saves... then this one I would say is a lot more useful/powerful than Insightful Reflexes. The classes that usually will have a "better" use of a high con score will be the classes that usually have a low Will Save. Whether that make steadfast determination "overpowered" is a matter of game balance as far as I'm concerned. Personally, if the PCs use this feat, a lot of bad guys with low Will Saves and high Con scores will be using this feat too and considering some of the monsters have Con Modifiers that get close to double digits and Wisdom modifiers are are crappy by comparison, this is a huge boost in overall difficulty in the game world in general.
war_thog 10-09-07, 09:05 PM	I think Steadfast Determination is a ridiculous feat. Its better than Force of Personality by a long shot and has nothing to do with will at all. Weapon Finesse Im fine with, it makes sense. Inishgtful reflexes is a bit hard to swallow. Intelligence has nothing to do with reflexes. Everyones reflexes act at the same speed, from memory less than 200 miliseconds All conscious effort is slower than reflexes. The 2 do not correlate. Force of personality sort of makes sense, youre so full of yourself that there aint nothing but you controlling you! :P Steadfast though? I'm a fat dwarf! I get extra power to resist mind control! Absolutely no connection at all. In terms of game balance...... characters like fighters arent meant to have good will, wizards arent meant to have good reflex, etc. These feats appear solely designed to increase power/decrease weaknesses with very little thought at all put into them. What do you think the Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude feats are for?
aelryinth 10-09-07, 09:16 PM	Steadfast Determination has Endurance as a pre-req. You think, oh, being tough enough to march 20 miles on a broken ankle (a Fortitude save) might not also convey the impression that you have a crapload of will power mentally as well as physically? Fat Dwarf? A fat dwarf would have a low Con score. High Con is being tough and in great shape physically, not about body mass. 18 con, 3 str, you probably look like a Kenyan marathoner. ===Aelryinth
EjoThims 10-09-07, 09:29 PM	Insightful Reflexes is a wonderful feat for Exemplars. Double your Int bonus for Reflex saves. :D
war_thog 10-10-07, 01:55 AM	You know you could have a very high con and be fat. Why do you think the Obese feat in vile darkness triples your weight and increases your con? Endurance is not about marching 20 miles on a broken ankle. Its about having the constitution to march 20 miles at all. Having a broken ankle.... well you could argue thatd be a will save to ignore the pain. But then how broken is it? Hairline fracture? Compound complete fractures? Splintered? Some of these cannot physically be walked on at all. Which still has nothing to do with your constitution score. Sounds more like the Iron Will feat to me ;)