Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WhiteRaven810 09-05-06, 12:29 AM	Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Skill points are generated by one's capacity to learn. But what about one's abilities to perceive? What about those who learn not from learning in it's self, but from experience? Yes, this is controversial. Yes I'm going to get flamed, but it's ok because I cast Protection from Energy (Fire) before hitting 'submit'. Intuitive Learner (General) Your learning comes from perception rather then analyzation. Prerequisite: None Your starting skill points, as well as skill points gained at every new level are determines by your Wisdom modifer instead of your Intelligence modifer. Normal: Skill Points are determined by your Intelligence modifer. Special: This feat can only be taken at the first level, during character creation.
Seerow 09-05-06, 12:41 AM	Oh joy, lets turn CoDzilla into a skill monkey! Sounds like fun to me.
WhiteRaven810 09-06-06, 02:17 PM	Only one "WhiteRaven your an idiot?". Oh board, where is thy sting? Seriously I would enjoy some more imput and opinions. The only thing keeping me from house ruling this as a bonus feat for all Animal's is I'm too lazy to refigure all those damn Skill Points.
Jethren 09-06-06, 02:48 PM	Actually, I think I'll use this for my campaign setting. I don't have Dzilla in my campaigns anyway (as I know how to control ubermongers properly), and most of my clerics behave themselves or lose thier required alignment.
katarl 09-06-06, 03:28 PM	I don't like it- because then int becomes a complete dump stat- it becomes useless! Your intentions are honourable, but it would not be put to good use. Int is to remember, perceiving isn't worth anything when looking for permanent skill gain when you can't remember it.
WhiteRaven810 09-06-06, 05:03 PM	Actually, I think I'll use this for my campaign setting. I don't have Dzilla in my campaigns anyway (as I know how to control ubermongers properly), and most of my clerics behave themselves or lose thier required alignment. :dancin: My first forum compliment. And it only took five forum's and three years. Thank you Jethren.
WhiteRaven810 09-06-06, 05:17 PM	I don't like it- because then int becomes a complete dump stat- it becomes useless! Your intentions are honourable, but it would not be put to good use. Yea, you are right. But remember unless your a caster, Monk, or Warblade, mental stats are usually dumped anyways. Int is to remember, perceiving isn't worth anything when looking for permanent skill gain when you can't remember it. I consider the Intelligence vs. Wisdom thing on the line myself, but leaning enough in the perceiving camp that I can create this feat without guilt. Wisdom is as close as D&D comes to instinct (rule wise), so think of using Wisdom as your skill generator in a similiar way to swimming for the first time with no one present. You have to let nature take over or your going to sink like a stone. Or in the case of a skill like Spellcraft. Imagine the extra skill points as using skill craft before, and from your analyization of the experience you've learned an ever increasing application of Spellcraft. Even in the case of Knowledge, though the skill is modified by Intelligence, pratical application and experience of seeing things in action work better represents the Wisdom ability rather then Intelligence.
Anauroch 09-07-06, 03:56 AM	Anyone can house rule this... go ahead! If it works in your game, that's fine! If you are looking at the game as a whole, then I must say that the idea is reaaaaaally bad... You are saying that for most fighter types the mental stats are dump stats in any case? For one, I don't really agree... they definitely don't get a lot of points, but look at what possibilities come with your change. Spending points in Wisdom now gives everyone a bonus to Will saves (always nice for most fighter types) AND bonus skill points... Swashbucklers and character relying on Combat Expertise will have to invest in wisdom and get a lot less out of it... You'll never see this feat introduced officially and for good reason. Like I said - you can always introduce it for your group and have fun with it though. ;)
WhiteRaven810 09-07-06, 02:52 PM	Swashbucklers and character relying on Combat Expertise will have to invest in wisdom and get a lot less out of it... That my good friend would be a fallacy. Feat's are optional. Wizard's, Swashbuckler's, Warblade's, and Combat Expertise feat user's can simply opt not to take this feat. No harm. No foul.
katarl 09-07-06, 03:09 PM	Wisdom is as close as D&D comes to instinct (rule wise), so think of using Wisdom as your skill generator in a similiar way to swimming for the first time with no one present. You have to let nature take over or your going to sink like a stone. I like this explanation, but wouldn't this be limited only to 1st level? Why not make it a trait, rather than a feat?
MJuggernaut 09-07-06, 03:28 PM	I find this interesting. I wouldn't allow a cleric or a druid to take the feat but it's perfectly acceptable for anyone else (or a monk). The only downside to this feat is, it feels more like a varient rule than a feat. But it works great as a feat also. What a good idea, I think there are down sides to it (they've been mentioned already) but i think it's a great option not only for role playing "Learn by doing!" personalities but for characters who just don't have much use for int anyway. Congrats to you for your innovative thoughts when it comes to skills and the skill system.
WhiteRaven810 09-20-06, 08:36 PM	Congrats to you for your innovative thoughts when it comes to skills and the skill system. My first sigg'able compliment. Thank you Juggernaut. I've thought about the feat, and while I find it balanced I know a number do not. I've gone through several revisions but every result is too obtuse to rule effectively. Simply, if your iffy about the feat and skill-monkey Clerics, modify the feat so it only works for your first Hit Dice/Class. For example, a first level Monk takes Inuitive Learner, his Wisdom now replaces Intelligence for determing Skill Points. At level six, Ember multiclasses to Cleric. BAM! For her Cleric levels she's stucking using her Intelligence. If she went back to Monk (which you can't do rule wise but I'm too lazy to delete and retype) she would again use her Wisdom modifer to determine her skill points. Of course with races that have Racial Hit Dice it's your call on how to handle it. A bit complicated still, and while I myself will not add that stipulation, it does take something away from the oomph of Intuitive Learner.
Nightwing_22 09-22-06, 12:15 PM	I would probably make a prerequsite of Intelligence 11 or maybe even 13 to prevent abuse of this feat. You have to be smart enough to retain the knwoledge that you are intuitivily arriving at. This would be a great feat for Monks, Paladins, Druids & Clerics. P.S. One Hit dice should not be a prerequsite, as all PCs have at least one hit dice. The only creatures that don't have a full hit dice are really small animals and I see no reason to deny them the ability to learn intuitively.
WhiteRaven810 09-24-06, 03:55 AM	P.S. One Hit dice should not be a prerequsite, as all PCs have at least one hit dice. The only creatures that don't have a full hit dice are really small animals and I see no reason to deny them the ability to learn intuitively. Good eye. I completely over looked that. Hell half the reason I made Inituitive Learner was for animals.
savant_warlord13 09-24-06, 12:21 PM	Skill points are generated by one's capacity to learn. But what about one's abilities to perceive? What about those who learn not from learning in it's self, but from experience? Yes, this is controversial. Yes I'm going to get flamed, but it's ok because I cast Protection from Energy (Fire) before hitting 'submit'. Intuitive Learner (General) Your learning comes from perception rather then analyzation. Prerequisite: None Your starting skill points, as well as skill points gained at every new level are determines by your Wisdom modifer instead of your Intelligence modifer. Normal: Skill Points are determined by your Intelligence modifer. Special: This feat can only be taken at the first level, during character creation. If Wizards did this, Intelligence would be even more useless than charisma.
unusualsuspect 09-24-06, 04:42 PM	Edit: Misinterpretation. Pleaseexcusemekthksbye.
Silverthumb128 09-24-06, 06:40 PM	I remember a Psionic Feat that allowed for one of the mental stats to HP at 1st level rather than Con. If this feat allowed Wisdom bonus to Skill Points for one level, that would be balanced, I think. The same feat also granted +1 HP/Psionic feat, so perhaps gaining an extra Skill Point/level would be an idea to consider?
Krevon 09-24-06, 07:10 PM	I like the idea also. I would make it a 1st lvl pre req though. I'd even make it available to clerics, druids, and monks as feats are hard to come by with those classes.
Silverthumb128 09-24-06, 07:21 PM	I like the idea also. I would make it a 1st lvl pre req though. I'd even make it available to clerics, druids, and monks as feats are hard to come by with those classes. Absolutely. It should be open to about any class, I'd say. It doesn't really push anything overboard, that I can think of. It still makes the Skill Points reliant upon Intelligence after 1st level, but at the same time, it still gives the benefit of an extra skill point each level after 1st. If Intelligence is your dump stat, it only gives a very small bonus, given there's only so much Wisdom you're able to get at 1st level.
WhiteRaven810 09-24-06, 11:43 PM	Absolutely. It should be open to about any class, I'd say. It doesn't really push anything overboard, that I can think of. It still makes the Skill Points reliant upon Intelligence after 1st level, but at the same time, it still gives the benefit of an extra skill point each level after 1st. Maybe I have to reread my feat descripton for clarity but the benfit of Inuitive Learner extends beyond the first level. It affects every level there after. So when Lidda the Rogue takes Initutive Learner her skill points are 8+Wisdom Modifer x4 on the first level, and then on levels two through twenty it'd be 8+Wisdom Modifer for her Rogue levels.
WhiteRaven810 09-24-06, 11:47 PM	I like the idea also. I would make it a 1st lvl pre req though. I'd even make it available to clerics, druids, and monks as feats are hard to come by with those classes. Again maybe I have to dot my I's and cross my T's but the feat already had the prerequiste of having to be taken at level one (first level) during character creation and already can be taken by any class, from Hexblade to Monk to Wu Jen to Cleric and Samurai.
Silverthumb128 09-26-06, 01:41 AM	Maybe I have to reread my feat descripton for clarity but the benfit of Inuitive Learner extends beyond the first level. It affects every level there after. No, no, I understood that, I was offering an alternative that didn't continue to uber-fy Wisdom-based classes. Its makes it balanced out. With this feat, it makes Intelligence meaningless to all but roleplayers, Wizards, and Psions. Whereas, with the alternative of just one level, it won't continue to make Clerics King of all Classes.
Shedeo 10-08-06, 02:32 PM	I actually really like this idea, but something seems off about it. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I dunno. I think its something about how it seems that its just replacing Int with Wis. I know that's exactly what its doing (at least skill-wise) but here's what I'm trying to say. You're replacing Int with Wis for skills because you learn better by getting a more hands-on feel for things than having someone teach you what you're doing. That also makes sense. Its just that the mechanic used for it bothers me because now you're just "learning with wisdom" instead of actually experiencing it. I also understand that making someone actually experience it would be an RP application, and we all know that trying to put RP applications into the rules is just asking for trouble. But thumbs up on the feat. If I can put a finger on what about it bothers me (or a fix to the aforementioned problem above) I'll certainly post back.
Bowmore 10-08-06, 02:49 PM	WhiteRaven, your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Seriously though, I'm totally using this feat in my game. I'm using the variant that it only affects the skill points for the class you took at 1st-level, however. That seems to me like a nice way to help balance it out. This is why I browse these boards -- people present their ideas without fear of getting flamed or having "That's a terrible idea, it'll never work, you're an idiot for thinking it would" said to them. Even though they -do- get flamed, and people -do- say that to them.
Lina_Inverse 10-08-06, 06:16 PM	The only purpose int holds in the game is to give skillpoints. Other similiar feats dont leave a stat which does nothing. This is an inherant problem, do you really want every barbarian to be 3int without penalty?
Onikani 10-08-06, 06:51 PM	Lina has it in a nutshell. I love this idea, but it makes wisdom way stronger than intelligence. The intelligence based skills really aren't worth a crap in most campaigns - Craft, Knowledge, and Decipher script? DS is bunk since Comprehend Languages is so much better. Craft? Take an extra day to make something, it lowers the dc. Knowledge - while generally useful, is easily overcome with some decent roleplaying and research. Intelligence has no bearing on combat rolls (swashbuckler strike and warmage edge aside), or saving throws. the only classes that really need it are intelligence based casters. Wisdom is huge. Will saves, and the related skills - Spot, Listen, Sense motive, et al, are way harder to live without than intelligence based ones. Failing a knowlege means you ask someone else, failing a spot check means you don's see something critical. Failing a sense motive means you just got lied to and bought it Did i mention will save? So if you allow wis to be used for skill points as well - then you are effectively giving ALL your players permission to put their lowest score into intelligence (since they don't need it), and put one of their best into wisdom. (I get Will save, the good skills, AND extra skill points from one ability, Hell, i'll play a monk and my AC goes up to! SIGN ME UP!). Personally - i think that if you want to move skill points out of int - then switch it to charisma. That's right - charisma. Charisma represents your ego, your force of personality. It's the ego that drives the brain to want learn, and forces it to remember, it also forces the senses to percieve when they might not want to. Yeah, i also feel that charisma should be the stat that modifies will saves. While the charisma based skills are useful - most classes only have access to a few of them, so this won't break the game balance as much as wisdom, unless you consider highly kiled paladins and wamages game breaking. Side note - fear the new Bard! If 6 wasn't enough - they could now have 10 per level. OMG!!!!!
Reversefigure4 10-08-06, 07:32 PM	Look at this as a measure of how broken or not the feat is: How many people -wouldn't- take this? Natural Spell, for example, is often considered somewhat broken as EVERY druid usually takes it. A feat that grants +200 HP would be broken, because everyone would take it. This feat totally eliminates the need for Intelligence for anyone who doesn't need it for class features (Wizard, Swash, Duelist, etc). Monks, Clerics, and Druids would be insane not to take it. Paladins and Rangers would want it as well. Rogues, Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Fighters slightly less so, but they still recieve a lot bigger bang for their buck out of wisdom now. Everyone becomes more of a skill monkey and has higher will saves, at the expense of a single feat. Because so many would end up taking it, it's overpowered.
StruckingFuggle 10-08-06, 09:31 PM	Monks, Clerics, and Druids would be insane not to take it. Oh, I'm sure there's better feats to take than this even for monks, druids, and clerics. I mean, sure, extra skill points are nice, but they cost a feat, and especially for monks, and often for clerics and druids, you can still find other good feats to get instead of this one ...
ShinAkuma2 10-08-06, 11:06 PM	This is an inherant problem, do you really want every barbarian to be 3int without penalty? I really don't a fear a Barbarian that has lots of skill points rather than, say, Power Attack, Leap Attack, or whatever it is the kids like these days. "That drooling fellow with the big sword is exceptionally skilled at weaving tapestries AND he can read Old Oeridian! We are in great danger!"
obsidianrose 11-12-06, 09:32 PM	I really don't a fear a Barbarian that has lots of skill points rather than, say, Power Attack, Leap Attack, or whatever it is the kids like these days. "That drooling fellow with the big sword is exceptionally skilled at weaving tapestries AND he can read Old Oeridian! We are in great danger!" Psst. They're called flaws. If your DM allows. Just take something useless, like inattentive, which penalizes your spot and listen. You'll make it up. It's only a -4 hit, and you'll gain way more skill points, and a higher wisdom mod.
DarkRhystar 11-12-06, 10:28 PM	This feat totally eliminates the need for Intelligence for anyone who doesn't need it for class features (Wizard, Swash, Duelist, etc). Monks, Clerics, and Druids would be insane not to take it. Paladins and Rangers would want it as well. Rogues, Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Fighters slightly less so, but they still recieve a lot bigger bang for their buck out of wisdom now. Everyone becomes more of a skill monkey and has higher will saves, at the expense of a single feat. Because so many would end up taking it, it's overpowered. Exactly. It essentially turns intelligence into a dump stat.
Adam Smite 11-12-06, 11:33 PM	Unfortunately, it makes lots of sense. Unfortunate, because it can be unbalancing. I may ask for this at some point though. Keep up the good work!
Xavier00 11-13-06, 12:59 PM	Heres a suggestion (though it takes the feat in a little bit of a different direction): A character takes this feat at first level and gains bonus skill points equal to 1/2 their wisdom modifier in addition to the usual skill points (they still get the normal X4 at first level). This keeps intelligence as more useful, but allows the wisdom based classes a few more skill points, and if intelligence is dumped, it will still negatively impact the number of skill points. It also then becomes a useful feat for any class, not just the high wisdom classes (I could see a rogue taking this). Oh ya, and this is my seconds post in about a year.... go me! (I lurk a lot)
blazed420 11-13-06, 01:52 PM	i have always felt that wisdom helped learning. in fact, this almost same idea was part of a class idea i had a while back. i nick named it "scientist" because i wasnt done with it. im still not :P. but they got bonus skill points equal to half their wisdom modifier to a maximum of their intelligence modifier. it showed that, while they learn through contimplation, studingy, and reviewing the facts, they could also just sit back, and observe the world around them with out preconseption and what the experience piece itself together. then again, my friends couldnt grasp my view and i never got help on the class to it fell into a dusty corner.
sigma999 04-12-07, 11:25 PM	OK I know this is Necromancy and all but I found this thread through Raven's sig and appreciate the creativity... I like and it stamp my approval if my approval were worth anything! However this is due to the fact that I also believe there should be more feats for rearranging stat-to-bonus in favor of the character. And this is because when a character acquires a feat such as this, they are spending a feat to accomplish the task. A whole feat! A feat spent on any other powergamer delight, such as Power Attack... or Arcane Thesis... that's 2-3 levels behind or possibly giving up access to a PrC until later. Most don't seem to understand the implications of that, those few resources every character has. They look at a feat and sneeeeeer because they are thinking short-term and immediate effect. How droll! Compare to Weapon Finesse, not "it makes INT a dump stat", you conservative sickos. Hell, compare to the thread all about X stat to Y bonus" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) and think about this feat, which I absolutely also see merit for Animal types even tho I'd prefer to simply make the Animal HD type more flexible for range of creatures. Like the more HP, the less SP, and options for lowering skills and HP for better saves or BAB and so on... simply limiting how it is but hey, D&D is D&D....