Invisible Whirlwind Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Invisible Whirlwind Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suin Bahhar
04-03-07, 01:57 PM Would invisibility give a surrounded rogue with WWA a chance to sneak everyone with a single full round action? Or would the invis stop working as soon as you make contact with the first opponent?
It leads to what way do you use the whirlwind attack, as a single attack roll or as multiple attack rolls?
Fallenangel359
04-03-07, 02:11 PM whirlwind is you make 1 attack action against all opponents you threaten as a full round action
each gets a seperate roll, and can be seperate action types

you can swing at one, disarm another, and trip a 3rd
DemonMonkeyBoy
04-03-07, 03:03 PM If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.

Direct from the spell. When you make your first attack, hit or miss, you become visable.
StevenO
04-03-07, 03:04 PM Invisibility would end as soon as you swing at the first target. If no one was aware of you before hand you should still be able to make an attack against everyone else by using Whirlwind Attack and add you sneak attack damage to each.
Squall255
04-03-07, 04:07 PM by the wording of the rules: no.
by the spirit of the rules: yes.

depends on how you're dm plays it.

the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack that requires multiple rolls against each enemy due to the minor twists in you're wrist after each hit.
Cartigan
04-03-07, 04:52 PM Invisibility would end as soon as you swing at the first target. If no one was aware of you before hand you should still be able to make an attack against everyone else by using Whirlwind Attack and add you sneak attack damage to each.
I agree. I have the impression that suddenly popping out of thin air grants you a surprise round where everyone else is flat-footed thereby granting sneak attack damage to the remaining attacks from whirlwind attack. However, wouldn't using Whirlwind Attack negate sneak attack by itself?
ShinAkuma2
04-03-07, 04:53 PM the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack that requires multiple rolls against each enemy due to the minor twists in you're wrist after each hit.

Then explain WWA with bludgeoning or piercing weapons. :P
Squall255
04-03-07, 06:36 PM well, my theory holds for bludgeoning, but not piercing weapons. I don't know how that would work with piercing weapons. i mean, just spining in a circle rapid ly jabbing at anything in front of you I guess. but then again, that isn't very tactical, nor is it very accurate.
I agree. I have the impression that suddenly popping out of thin air grants you a surprise round where everyone else is flat-footed thereby granting sneak attack damage to the remaining attacks from whirlwind attack. However, wouldn't using Whirlwind Attack negate sneak attack by itself?
it doesn't negate sneak attack because sneak attack isn't an action. Sneak attack is additional damage based on a condition. whenever that condition is met, Sneak attack damage is done (if the attacker wants)
Vegepygmy
04-03-07, 06:59 PM well, my theory holds for bludgeoning, but not piercing weapons.And that's how we know your theory is wrong. ;)
Cartigan
04-03-07, 07:27 PM it doesn't negate sneak attack because sneak attack isn't an action.
Ah, I didn't read it through properly.
Squall255
04-03-07, 07:36 PM And that's how we know your theory is wrong. ;)

well, I never said that it was perfect. besides, some of the capeabilities that feats give aren't even physically possible, so 2/3 instances isn't bad :)
ShinAkuma2
04-03-07, 10:16 PM well, I never said that it was perfect. besides, some of the capeabilities that feats give aren't even physically possible, so 2/3 instances isn't bad :)

It wouldn't work with bludgeoning weapons, anyway. As soon as you hit one guy, you've lost way too much momentum to have any chance of doing damage to another guy, much less 8 or more other guys.

WWA is a "whirlwind" of attacks. You continuously attack all around you.
DarknessEternal
04-03-07, 10:28 PM the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack.
No, you're thinking of Cleave.

Look at the requirements for Whirlwind Attack. Do you see Cleave among them?

No, in fact, you see feats that rely on speed and agility.

Whirlwind Attack is a series of attacks, not one sweeping attack.
runestar
04-03-07, 10:41 PM You should be free to designate what the whirlwind attack sequence looks like when executed, for aesthetics sake. However, you are still expected to use mechanical rules for purposes of interacting with other effects and rules.

For example, I could take a page from a wuxia show and execute my version of whirlwind by spinning my sword like a frisbee around me and hitting everyone surrounding me. Bottom line is that you get 1 attack against everyone within reach.

Although it is not clearly stated, I think that all the attacks are made in successive order, rather than simultaneously. Thus, I think invis would be broken after the 1st attack, and subsequent attacks will not benefit from invis.:)
tui
04-04-07, 01:05 PM Right, it sounds to me like you'd only get the benefit of invisibility against the first target (+2 to hit), but may still be able to sneak attack everyone if they are flat footed, such as during a surprise round... Although I believe WWA is a full-round action, and a surprise round only allows a standard action...
rastlin_of_the_tomes
04-04-07, 01:16 PM i think that the invis bonus goes only to the first one unless you have improved, but thats not the issue, but sneak attack damage should work, asuming they werent bar or other u-dodges
mtrpcic
04-05-07, 12:10 AM Unless you're a Ninja, and your invisibility stays even after attacking.
Dragonteuthis
04-05-07, 03:08 AM Whirlwind Attack is a series of attacks, not one sweeping attack.

"You can strike nearby opponents, in an amazing, spinning attack."

It can be interpreted multiple ways. Per the description, it's a single sweeping attack. But people can describe it however they like to fit their character, obviously.
Lucas Blackstone
04-05-07, 08:17 AM I thought you made one attack roll with Whirlwind Attack. The description implies one attack. If so, I don't see why the sneak attack wouldn't apply since the attack occurs on all the targets at the same time ( if it's one attack roll).
tui
04-05-07, 09:37 AM Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.
I've always interpreted that to mean you roll the dice for each one of your opponents, and that each is a separate attack. I can see how you'd read it the other way, but it looks to me like the intent is that they are separate attacks.
Vegepygmy
04-05-07, 11:55 AM Per the description, it's a single sweeping attack.The word "sweeping" appears nowhere in the feat description, and the words "one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach" make it clear that it is not a single attack (unless there's only one opponent within reach).

I thought you made one attack roll with Whirlwind Attack.Nope; "one melee attack...against each opponent."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 04-03-07, 01:57 PM	Would invisibility give a surrounded rogue with WWA a chance to sneak everyone with a single full round action? Or would the invis stop working as soon as you make contact with the first opponent? It leads to what way do you use the whirlwind attack, as a single attack roll or as multiple attack rolls?
Fallenangel359 04-03-07, 02:11 PM	whirlwind is you make 1 attack action against all opponents you threaten as a full round action each gets a seperate roll, and can be seperate action types you can swing at one, disarm another, and trip a 3rd
DemonMonkeyBoy 04-03-07, 03:03 PM	If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Direct from the spell. When you make your first attack, hit or miss, you become visable.
StevenO 04-03-07, 03:04 PM	Invisibility would end as soon as you swing at the first target. If no one was aware of you before hand you should still be able to make an attack against everyone else by using Whirlwind Attack and add you sneak attack damage to each.
Squall255 04-03-07, 04:07 PM	by the wording of the rules: no. by the spirit of the rules: yes. depends on how you're dm plays it. the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack that requires multiple rolls against each enemy due to the minor twists in you're wrist after each hit.
Cartigan 04-03-07, 04:52 PM	Invisibility would end as soon as you swing at the first target. If no one was aware of you before hand you should still be able to make an attack against everyone else by using Whirlwind Attack and add you sneak attack damage to each. I agree. I have the impression that suddenly popping out of thin air grants you a surprise round where everyone else is flat-footed thereby granting sneak attack damage to the remaining attacks from whirlwind attack. However, wouldn't using Whirlwind Attack negate sneak attack by itself?
ShinAkuma2 04-03-07, 04:53 PM	the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack that requires multiple rolls against each enemy due to the minor twists in you're wrist after each hit. Then explain WWA with bludgeoning or piercing weapons. :P
Squall255 04-03-07, 06:36 PM	well, my theory holds for bludgeoning, but not piercing weapons. I don't know how that would work with piercing weapons. i mean, just spining in a circle rapid ly jabbing at anything in front of you I guess. but then again, that isn't very tactical, nor is it very accurate. I agree. I have the impression that suddenly popping out of thin air grants you a surprise round where everyone else is flat-footed thereby granting sneak attack damage to the remaining attacks from whirlwind attack. However, wouldn't using Whirlwind Attack negate sneak attack by itself? it doesn't negate sneak attack because sneak attack isn't an action. Sneak attack is additional damage based on a condition. whenever that condition is met, Sneak attack damage is done (if the attacker wants)
Vegepygmy 04-03-07, 06:59 PM	well, my theory holds for bludgeoning, but not piercing weapons.And that's how we know your theory is wrong. ;)
Cartigan 04-03-07, 07:27 PM	it doesn't negate sneak attack because sneak attack isn't an action. Ah, I didn't read it through properly.
Squall255 04-03-07, 07:36 PM	And that's how we know your theory is wrong. ;) well, I never said that it was perfect. besides, some of the capeabilities that feats give aren't even physically possible, so 2/3 instances isn't bad :)
ShinAkuma2 04-03-07, 10:16 PM	well, I never said that it was perfect. besides, some of the capeabilities that feats give aren't even physically possible, so 2/3 instances isn't bad :) It wouldn't work with bludgeoning weapons, anyway. As soon as you hit one guy, you've lost way too much momentum to have any chance of doing damage to another guy, much less 8 or more other guys. WWA is a "whirlwind" of attacks. You continuously attack all around you.
DarknessEternal 04-03-07, 10:28 PM	the way I see WWA is that you plan your follow through to go through other enemies, so it's one attack. No, you're thinking of Cleave. Look at the requirements for Whirlwind Attack. Do you see Cleave among them? No, in fact, you see feats that rely on speed and agility. Whirlwind Attack is a series of attacks, not one sweeping attack.
runestar 04-03-07, 10:41 PM	You should be free to designate what the whirlwind attack sequence looks like when executed, for aesthetics sake. However, you are still expected to use mechanical rules for purposes of interacting with other effects and rules. For example, I could take a page from a wuxia show and execute my version of whirlwind by spinning my sword like a frisbee around me and hitting everyone surrounding me. Bottom line is that you get 1 attack against everyone within reach. Although it is not clearly stated, I think that all the attacks are made in successive order, rather than simultaneously. Thus, I think invis would be broken after the 1st attack, and subsequent attacks will not benefit from invis.:)
tui 04-04-07, 01:05 PM	Right, it sounds to me like you'd only get the benefit of invisibility against the first target (+2 to hit), but may still be able to sneak attack everyone if they are flat footed, such as during a surprise round... Although I believe WWA is a full-round action, and a surprise round only allows a standard action...
rastlin_of_the_tomes 04-04-07, 01:16 PM	i think that the invis bonus goes only to the first one unless you have improved, but thats not the issue, but sneak attack damage should work, asuming they werent bar or other u-dodges
mtrpcic 04-05-07, 12:10 AM	Unless you're a Ninja, and your invisibility stays even after attacking.
Dragonteuthis 04-05-07, 03:08 AM	Whirlwind Attack is a series of attacks, not one sweeping attack. "You can strike nearby opponents, in an amazing, spinning attack." It can be interpreted multiple ways. Per the description, it's a single sweeping attack. But people can describe it however they like to fit their character, obviously.
Lucas Blackstone 04-05-07, 08:17 AM	I thought you made one attack roll with Whirlwind Attack. The description implies one attack. If so, I don't see why the sneak attack wouldn't apply since the attack occurs on all the targets at the same time ( if it's one attack roll).
tui 04-05-07, 09:37 AM	Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. I've always interpreted that to mean you roll the dice for each one of your opponents, and that each is a separate attack. I can see how you'd read it the other way, but it looks to me like the intent is that they are separate attacks.
Vegepygmy 04-05-07, 11:55 AM	Per the description, it's a single sweeping attack.The word "sweeping" appears nowhere in the feat description, and the words "one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach" make it clear that it is not a single attack (unless there's only one opponent within reach). I thought you made one attack roll with Whirlwind Attack.Nope; "one melee attack...against each opponent."