| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| CelestialBarbarian02-26-07, 11:54 AM | A prospective DM here mentioned a feat called Ironheart Surge from the "ToB" (Tome of Battle?) in connection with making a frenzied berserker less likely to attack allies. Can anyone tell me what he's talking about? Thanks. :) |
| mostholy202-26-07, 03:19 PM | Ironheart surge is NOT a feat. It is a manuever from the iron heart discipline from ToB. If the character has the maneuver readied, he can take a standard action to end 1 spell, effect, or condition that is currently affecting the character. For the frienzied barbarian, the maneuver can be used to automatically end the frenzy state, without having to roll a will save. However, to gain the maneuver you need to take a few levels of one of the martial blade classes from ToB or acquire the use of the manuever through the martial study feat (in this case you would have to take the feat at least 2 times to get the "ironheart surge" maneuver and the pre-req maneuver). There is a minimum Initiator lvl pre-req to be met also. |
| Caliborn02-26-07, 03:26 PM | It's not a feat, it's a third level Maneuver. You'd best save your feats and just grab a pair of unslotted Iron Heart Vests, one with a first or second level maneuver and one with Iron Heart Surge; only costs 6000 gp total. You need the first vest to qualify for the one that has Iron Heart Surge on it; you must also be tenth level to qualify for Iron Heart surge if you have no levels in a martial adept class. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-26-07, 08:37 PM | Ok, thanks Mostholy and Caliborn. It sounds like this isn't much of an option for a FB. Thanks! :) |
| runestar02-26-07, 09:54 PM | It's also debatable if taking a standard action to activate iron heart surge is really the best use of a FB's actions, when he should be attacking every single chance he gets(in game terms, this would translate to him using all his spare actions to move and attack, leaving no opportunities for any other options).:) |
| CelestialBarbarian02-26-07, 10:14 PM | It's also debatable if taking a standard action to activate iron heart surge is really the best use of a FB's actions, when he should be attacking every single chance he gets(in game terms, this would translate to him using all his spare actions to move and attack, leaving no opportunities for any other options).:) Yeah. one of the players told me that if he were the DM (which he is in another campaign) he wouldn't even allow the FB to concentrate enough during a frenzy to allow the use of that maneuver. |
| runestar02-26-07, 11:17 PM | I was scrolling through the CO boards, and some of the newfound revelations seemed out of whack... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=798968 The ability to end an AMF effect or neuter an epic spell?:eek: |
| Crashy7502-27-07, 12:52 AM | I was scrolling through the CO boards, and some of the newfound revelations seemed out of whack... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=798968 The ability to end an AMF effect or neuter an epic spell?:eek: Wow. Antimagic fields. Next time I make a gish... EDIT: Who am I kidding. I hardly ever listen to CustServ. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 12:53 AM | I was scrolling through the CO boards, and some of the newfound revelations seemed out of whack... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=798968 The ability to end an AMF effect or neuter an epic spell?:eek: Wow. I had no idea what I was stepping into when I asked my innocent question. Throwing off an AMT with a combat maneuver? It seems ludicrous. Oops. I meant the AMF. AMT is the alternative minmum tax. My brother, who also has a tax background, and I have been discussing it recently. |
| Crashy7502-27-07, 01:06 AM | I would just pretend you never read that. I know I will. CustServ makes a lot of silly rulings. Look up the crusader recovery for example. Or don't. You'll sleep better. |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 01:37 AM | Yeah. one of the players told me that if he were the DM (which he is in another campaign) he wouldn't even allow the FB to concentrate enough during a frenzy to allow the use of that maneuver. Interestingly, you don't need to concentrate to use a maneuver unless it says you do (like some Diamond Mind ones do). A barbarian in a rage (who cannot concentrate) can use maneuvers just fine. A frenzied berserker, however, likely cannot use Iron Heart Surge for the reasons noted above. Do note that CustServ has made worse rulings in the ToB. The three worst ones they made were the crusader recovery (to them, instead of working like it does on the sidebar on page 38, it instead only recovers maneuvers you've expended, which leads to unlimited use of your best maneuvers every round), White Raven Tactics (according to them, you are your own ally; when combined with the crusader ruling above this means you have an effective TIME STOP at level 5), and Iron Heart Surge (discussed here). |
| runestar02-27-07, 01:40 AM | White Raven Tactics (according to them, you are your own ally This makes me wonder I can consider myself as an opponent for purposes of activating robilar's gambit by hitting myself...:P |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 01:48 AM | This makes me wonder I can consider myself as an opponent for purposes of activating robilar's gambit by hitting myself...:P Unlikely. Do note that if the CustServ ruling is true, other White Raven maneuvers become amazing self-buffs. I know they're high-level, but Swarm Tactics essentially amounts to a free +5 to all melee attacks PLUS a powerful ally effect if this ruling holds, for instance, and Swarming Assault becomes an area-effect "make another attack" ability. White Raven Tactics is the standout winner in terms of which is the most powerful under that interpretation, though. You want a simple example on how crazy White Raven Tactics on yourself is, EVEN WITHOUT the CustServ Crusader ruling (which should be obvious: WRT yourself just as you're about to recover maneuvers, which recovers your White Raven Tactics for you to use on your immediate next action, which you keep doing... thus timestopping everyone at level 5)? Look at this. Warblade. Feat: Stormguard Warrior (Iron Heart tactical feat). Maneuvers: Use in this order: Round 1: Avalanche of Blades (using the Combat Rhythm part of Stormguard Warrior), then White Raven Tactics on yourself. Round 1 (second action due to WRT): Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still. Work that one out and CRY. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 01:53 AM | Interestingly, you don't need to concentrate to use a maneuver unless it says you do (like some Diamond Mind ones do). A barbarian in a rage (who cannot concentrate) can use maneuvers just fine. A frenzied berserker, however, likely cannot use Iron Heart Surge for the reasons noted above. Do note that CustServ has made worse rulings in the ToB. The three worst ones they made were the crusader recovery (to them, instead of working like it does on the sidebar on page 38, it instead only recovers maneuvers you've expended, which leads to unlimited use of your best maneuvers every round), White Raven Tactics (according to them, you are your own ally; when combined with the crusader ruling above this means you have an effective TIME STOP at level 5), and Iron Heart Surge (discussed here). This makes me happier that I haven't wasted money purchasing this product. |
| runestar02-27-07, 02:09 AM | This makes me happier that I haven't wasted money purchasing this product. Wuxia meets dnd - you just knew that this day would come...:P |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 02:44 AM | Wuxia meets dnd - you just knew that this day would come...:P What's "Wuxia?" |
| runestar02-27-07, 07:47 AM | What's "Wuxia?" Wuxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) You know..."Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "Hero" etc, all those chinese gongfu flicks set in ancient China...:) |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 10:35 AM | Wuxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) You know..."Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "Hero" etc, all those chinese gongfu flicks set in ancient China...:) Ah, I see. I have actually had a samurai/kensai in my campaign world going all the way back to the start 28 years ago. The DM who ran my first campaign had a samurai class and I adopted it from him. Over the years as I learned more about medieval Japan I've added more flavor to the class and campaign world. I've generally kept it within the standard D&D parameters. My most recent version, for instance, gets bonus feats like a fighter but has access to more Oriental-flavored feats like Wind Warrior, Kamikazi (divine wind--not suicide), Water Warrior, Tsunami, Fire Warrior, Earth Warrior, Void Warrior, Void Master, etc. Basically there was one feat for each "element," and generally a second feat of the same element that required the first one, then Void Warrior for someone with all four elements, and Void Master for someone who had all the elemental feats as well as Void Warrior, something you could really only get at epic levels. |
| runestar02-27-07, 11:22 AM | Well, I have always been quite interested in the wuxia genre, being fed on a steady diet of period drama serials while growing up sure helped peak my fascination with this genre. I might consider picking up said book just to see how it interprets this. Will have to wait for borders to issue their occasional 30% discount coupon though - the books there are quite horribly overpriced.:( What are everyone's opinions and views on the TOB book?:) |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 11:41 AM | Well, I have always been quite interested in the wuxia genre, being fed on a steady diet of period drama serials while growing up sure helped peak my fascination with this genre. I might consider picking up said book just to see how it interprets this. Will have to wait for borders to issue their occasional 30% discount coupon though - the books there are quite horribly overpriced.:( What are everyone's opinions and views on the TOB book?:) In the early 1970s the confluence of a wave of immigration from Korea to the US (bringing Tae Kwon Do) and the premiere of the Kung Fu tv show made martial arts very popular in the United States. (Earlier Bruce Lee movies probably set the stage for the popularity, and at least according to the movie of Lee's life, the creators of Kung Fu originally told him that he would star in the show.) It was such a big phenomenon that even Carol Burnett spoofed Kung Fu in a skit called "Young Fool" replete with the famous line from the Kung Fu opening credits, "As quickly as you can, snatch this pebble from my hand." There was even a stupid song called "Kung Fu Fighting" that made the Top 40. From what little I've seen of the ToB so far it seems like both an excuse to sell another book and an attempt to give melee specialists spells without calling them spells. Several people in a new campaign I'm considering joining have said (in an email conversation that started with the DM talking about using Iroheart Surge to end a frenzy) that the base classes in ToB are overpowered relative to the melee specialists of the PHB. If you can really use a combat maneuver to stop time or destroy an AMF, it does sound more powerful. (Now what would be really neat is if you could destroy the AMT with a combat maneuver--that would make the book well worth the price. :D) Amazon.com is selling ToB, by the way, for a 34% discount. |
| runestar02-27-07, 11:52 AM | Amazon.com is selling ToB, by the way, for a 34% discount. Aye, but on second though, I think I will still wait for Borders to bring in new copies of TOB(they had a few earlier, but appeared to have sold them out the last time I went). If I like the book's contents, then I might pick it up. I like to browse through the books first to see if I will actually like the contents of the book. This is why I don't use internet shopping, since I can't actually peruse my purchases first. So I have little idea of what I am getting, much less if I am actually getting my money's worth. This is why I actually end up buying only about 1/3 of the books on my dnd to-buy list...:) Some, like complete psi or races of destiny, just did not live up to my expectations...:( In fact, I find I don't quite like the way many of the new splatbooks are going... |
| HerzavDFoul02-27-07, 11:55 AM | Some days ago I asked to Wizards Help about using those maneuvers during a Rage or a Frenzy, and they answered that "Nothing in the rules indicates otherwise, so sure you can". However, the final word is up to every DM |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 12:18 PM | Aye, but on second though, I think I will still wait for Borders to bring in new copies of TOB(they had a few earlier, but appeared to have sold them out the last time I went). If I like the book's contents, then I might pick it up. I like to browse through the books first to see if I will actually like the contents of the book. This is why I don't use internet shopping, since I can't actually peruse my purchases first. So I have little idea of what I am getting, much less if I am actually getting my money's worth. This is why I actually end up buying only about 1/3 of the books on my dnd to-buy list...:) Some, like complete psi or races of destiny, just did not live up to my expectations...:( In fact, I find I don't quite like the way many of the new splatbooks are going... Sometimes publishers will allow Amazon to post sample pages or even searchable text from a book right on the website. You an actually do this with a great many Wizards books. I'm looking at someone's list, and here are the ones that are searchable on the Amazon website: PHB, Miniatures Handbook, Spell Compendium, Complete Warrior, Compete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Races of Dentistry :D, Races of the Mild, Races of Stone, Savage Species, Epic Level Handbook, Epic Level Hand Lotion, Book of Ex-Salted Deed, Book of Vile Darkness, Unearthed Arcana, Magic of Art Carney, Froststorm, Sandburn and Starwrack. In fact the only D&D books on this list that aren't searchable on Amazon are Races that Have Little to Do With Dragons, Tome of Tragic, and of course Tome of Battle. Oftentimes my players, who pretty much uniformly make much more money than I do (as they virtually all work for the federal government out here), buy books before I do and then bring them along for me to preview. Sometimes I'll like a book, like one in the "environment" series, but never seem to quite get around to buying it because while it would be cool if I ever planned for that particular environment, the current campaign isn't really oriented specifically to any of them. (I am also still waiting for two much-vaunted environment books, Bathtub and Microwave, and the accompanying Races of the Bathroom and Races of the Kitchen Counter. I hear the swarm of cookie crumbs is a dangerous foe, and with a level adjustment of only +22, everyone will want to play one immediately!) Some books, like the Spell Compendium, are so immediately useful that I'll get them right away. There are other books that just deal with cool material, like goodness or demons, that I might also get right away even if I can't integrate much of it into the campaign. I've found that the more books they publish, the fewer I buy. Once they published more than I could afford to buy I found that, when I had to pick and choose, I could often live without this or that book. There is already so much material in the books I own that I as a DM or my players don't use that I generally don't need any new material. I also find that many other DMs don't allow a lot of the material in these various and sundry other books. Edit: Oh, forgot to mention that I also love to buy online to avoid the sales tax. I make very little money but there are always some local country-club elites who earn in the top 1% of the income distribution who don't want to use their property taxes to pay for their yuppie bike trails but instead want to impose an sales tax on me to pay for them. Anything I can do to keep these rich fat-cats out of my wallet pleases me greatly. |
| MerlintheTuna02-27-07, 12:21 PM | You'd best save your feats and just grab a pair of unslotted Iron Heart Vests, one with a first or second level maneuver and one with Iron Heart Surge; only costs 6000 gp total. You need the first vest to qualify for the one that has Iron Heart Surge on it...I can't say I agree with that. The sidebar specifically says that the items serve as a way to introduce non-ToB characters to maneuvers; if the items didn't bypass maneuver prerequisites, they'd be almost totally ineffective at doing so. It makes more sense to treat the maneuver-granting items as command-word items, not unlike Boots of Levitation or similar effects. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 12:32 PM | I can't say I agree with that. The sidebar specifically says that the items serve as a way to introduce non-ToB characters to maneuvers; if the items didn't bypass maneuver prerequisites, they'd be almost totally ineffective at doing so. It makes more sense to treat the maneuver-granting items as command-word items, not unlike Boots of Levitation or similar effects. Since I don't have the book I barely even understood the advice anyway. I guess on rereading it I see that despite being vests these items are unslotted. If the maneuvers can break an AMF and stop time, these items are insanely powerful. How much do they cost anyway? Also, is it easier to stop a frenzy with this maneuver than with the standard Will save? Did I read correctly above that this automatically stops the frenzy?! Hmm, maybe I should revisit the idea. Sine it was the DM who first mentioned the Ironheart Surge, maybe he would be open to allowing the items. I get to purchase up to 19,000 gp worth of starting items for my 7th level character, although no one can cost more than 9500 gp, and I think I have to get approval if the item isn't considered a "minor" item. What do these things cost? Do you need a specific one for a specific maneuver or what? Thanks! :) |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 01:22 PM | Since I don't have the book I barely even understood the advice anyway. I guess on rereading it I see that despite being vests these items are unslotted. If the maneuvers can break an AMF and stop time, these items are insanely powerful. How much do they cost anyway?They can't actually do some of these. The Tome of Battle has some text in it written in commonsense terms -- the only way the CO boards were able to break it was by using Customer Service rulings. For instance, the Crusader recovery is spelled out clearly in a casual example on page 38. This is a fair and fun method of doing it. The Customer Service ruling directly contradicts this and leads to turning crusaders into friggin' Energizer Bunnies. Another Customer Service ruling (which directly contradicts nearly all of White Raven's flavor) is what enables White Raven Tactics to be used on yourself, which is the key to essentially ALL of the most powerful Tome of Battle builds (take this targeting away and the ability becomes merely strong, instead of OMFGBORKEN). It took both of these (terrible) rulings together to get an infinite-action loop -- and I should note that this loop takes at least four rounds to set up (three with a feat), even with the ruling. In the case of Iron Heart Surge, the problem with ending Antimagic Fields or other area spells is that it says "select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." It doesn't say "for you", although it's implied (especially since the maneuver has a personal range). Customer Service, however, ruled that since it says 'that effect ends', you could walk into an antimagic field and end the field, instead of merely ignoring its effects on you. In conclusion, the crap you hear about the ToB having broken effects relies entirely on Customer Service rulings. I speak as a CO board regular and an avid fan of the book -- mechanically, it just gives warrior-types OPTIONS (and no, they're not spells; they're closer to feats than anything else except they scale). It's actually quite hard to truly break -- as compared to spellcasting, which practically breaks itself like a light pastry as soon as you pick it up, even in core-only environments. Now, to directly answer your question, maneuvers don't cost anything to use. They're designed for use on a per-encounter basis. Each one is once per encounter -- but each of the three base classes has a method of recovering them if they want. The crusader is randomly granted his readied maneuvers and recovers them automatically when he runs out of ones to be granted (the book actually suggests using a small "deck" for this; it sounds cornier than it actually is), the swordsage can meditate to recover a single maneuver as a full-round action (by far the worst method of recovery, but swordsages also get the most maneuvers from the most schools), and warblades can recover them by simply not using maneuvers for a short time and either attacking normally or flourishing. Non-ToB classes can pick up maneuvers via feats or PrCs, but in those cases they don't gain a recovery method -- each maneuver truly is once per encounter.Also, is it easier to stop a frenzy with this maneuver than with the standard Will save? Did I read correctly above that this automatically stops the frenzy?!Assuming he could use Iron Heart Surge, then yes, it could stop a frenzy. Do note that he probably CANNOT, since using Iron Heart Surge wouldn't be "attacking her opponents to the best of her ability", which a berserker in a frenzy is required to do.Hmm, maybe I should revisit the idea. Sine it was the DM who first mentioned the Ironheart Surge, maybe he would be open to allowing the items. I get to purchase up to 19,000 gp worth of starting items for my 7th level character, although no one can cost more than 9500 gp, and I think I have to get approval if the item isn't considered a "minor" item. What do these things cost? Do you need a specific one for a specific maneuver or what? Thanks! :)I don't remember the costs off the top of my head, but each item grants a single maneuver of up to a particular level. Do note that you DO need to meet the maneuver's prerequisite -- and for Iron Heart Surge, that's one other Iron Heart maneuver. You can pick that up with a single feat, though -- Martial Study (Steel Wind or Steely Strike) -- or potentially through another Iron Heart item. I forget which slot an Iron Heart item takes up, though -- chances are it's not something you can double-up on (the only one I recall that you could do that with was Diamond Mind, which uses rings). Note that while MerlintheTuna's typically correct on these regards, he's wrong on the maneuver prerequisites. You can still introduce maneuvers to non-ToB characters through those items -- it'd just be the simpler maneuvers, those without prerequisites. There's a LOT that are really good that have no prerequisites -- the most popular on the CO boards tend to be the Diamond Mind saving throw counters. For more information on the subject, please see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a). The warblade and a few Iron Heart maneuvers are provided for you there (including Iron Heart Surge), along with a summary primer on the abilities. |
| aelryinth02-27-07, 03:20 PM | I dont' consider the ability to end an Anti Magic Shell to be unbalancing, either. Finally, something a melee type can do that a mage cannot? It's not like it's going to be important until the mid to late game, and actually means you can't shut down a fighting character's magic with a simple level 6 spell. Now, the melee has a choice...he can end the effect OR he can run out of it desperately. Fewer absolute limits are good thing. And the ability to recover on your own instead of leaning on a cleric is also a great thing. I don't have any problem with Surge...about the worst thing it does it make Frenzied Berserkers totally playable since they never have to attack their friends if they don't want to. ===Aelryinth |
| MerlintheTuna02-27-07, 05:08 PM | Oh, wow, rereading it, it does specifically say it requires the character to have the prerequisites satisfied. My apologies for the bad advice. (Though I stand by this being a totally lame rule. If I want a villainous NPC to confront the PCs with "strange tactics and abilities," I expect something better than swapping a Will save with a Concentration check or a 1st level maneuver. Guess there's always Stone Dragon for that, though.) |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 05:12 PM | Oh, wow, rereading it, it does specifically say it requires the character to have the prerequisites satisfied. My apologies for the bad advice. (Though I stand by this being a totally lame rule. If I want a villainous NPC to confront the PCs with "strange tactics and abilities," I expect something better than swapping a Will save with a Concentration check or a 1st level maneuver. Guess there's always Stone Dragon for that, though.) Or, for that matter, giving him levels in a martial adept class. It's not like the "strange and wonderful abilities" have to come from an item, and you're the DM -- you've got a bottomless supply of NPCs of any level. Furthermore, if they become accustomed to it ("Oh, he's a warblade."), you can always use those items to punch it up a bit ("...How the hell did he use Burning Blade? That stung!"). I forget if those items bypass initiator level requirements, though. If they do, take another look at Mountain Tombstone Strike (the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver). |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 08:42 PM | I dont' consider the ability to end an Anti Magic Shell to be unbalancing, either. Finally, something a melee type can do that a mage cannot? It's not like it's going to be important until the mid to late game, and actually means you can't shut down a fighting character's magic with a simple level 6 spell. Now, the melee has a choice...he can end the effect OR he can run out of it desperately. Fewer absolute limits are good thing. And the ability to recover on your own instead of leaning on a cleric is also a great thing. I don't have any problem with Surge...about the worst thing it does it make Frenzied Berserkers totally playable since they never have to attack their friends if they don't want to. ===Aelryinth A 5th-level fighter-type can use a 3rd level non-magical spell to automatically remove an 6th level spell. And the worst thing it does is make an unplayable PrC playable?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 09:19 PM | A 5th-level fighter-type can use a 3rd level non-magical spell to automatically remove an 6th level spell. And the worst thing it does is make an unplayable PrC playable?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Again, this relies on a Customer Service ruling. Iron Heart Surge has a range of Personal; it's dubious to assume that it can affect things other than the warblade himself. Please see my earlier post on the subject. Furthermore, PLEASE stop calling them spells. If anything, maneuvers are closer to feats. |
| runestar02-27-07, 10:01 PM | It is a bit funny when you realize you can use iron heart surge to end epic spell effects, yet cannot free yourself of that hold person effect(since you must be able to move to use a maneuver)...:P Feature or bug?;) |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 10:23 PM | Again, this relies on a Customer Service ruling. Iron Heart Surge has a range of Personal; it's dubious to assume that it can affect things other than the warblade himself. Please see my earlier post on the subject. Furthermore, PLEASE stop calling them spells. If anything, maneuvers are closer to feats. I believe you when you say that the Customer Service ruling has grossly amplified the power the ToB. That doesn't stop me from responding to someone else's post claiming that such gross amplification is reasonable. Given your position, you should, on the contrary, support me in doing so. As for calling them spells, they're arrayed in level-lists like spells, and they have powers like spells--even overcoming an AMF on an only personal basis resembles a spell-indeed it resembles the spell magic field that I created under 3.0 and then vetted recently on the boards here. Look, I've been playing fighters since 1978. Under the older systems when wizard was getting time stop (when it still allowed the caster to inflict damage on others) and meteor swarm the fighter was getting +4 hit points. It was pathetic. I understand the desire to make fighter-types more powerful at high levels. But I don't think making spell-lists and then calling the spells "maneuvers" is the way to do it. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 10:24 PM | It is a bit funny when you realize you can use iron heart surge to end epic spell effects, yet cannot free yourself of that hold person effect(since you must be able to move to use a maneuver)...:P Feature or bug?;) More ToB goofiness?! :P |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 10:44 PM | I believe you when you say that the Customer Service ruling has grossly amplified the power the ToB. That doesn't stop me from responding to someone else's post claiming that such gross amplification is reasonable. Given your position, you should, on the contrary, support me in doing so.Not really -- I attack the CustServ ruling, while you attack the maneuver. We both agree using it for what CustServ says it can be used for is ridiculous, but we approach that claim from different angles.As for calling them spells, they're arrayed in level-lists like spells, and they have powers like spells--even overcoming an AMF on an only personal basis resembles a spell-indeed it resembles the spell magic field that I created under 3.0 and then vetted recently on the boards here.Your first complaint -- you mean you think they're spells because they have level prerequisites (which is really all that the level of a maneuver factors into aside from the odd save DC and the maneuver-granting items) and are presented alphabetically in a list? Just like the PHB2 feats, for instance? Oh, wait, those make a better analogy than spells, since several feats require other feats, just like maneuvers have maneuver prereqs, and the cost for a maneuver is generally on par with a feat (Martial Study). As for your second complaint, buy the book and look through the list of maneuvers before you make the claim about having spell-like powers. Iron Heart Surge is up there as one of the two most powerful maneuvers, and is hardly representative of the book as a whole. The only disciplines with spell-like effects are Desert Wind (fire damage, one teleport, flight) and Shadow Hand (cold damage, teleports, distance attacks) -- all of which are only open to swordsages, which are described as blade wizards and have a mystic feel to them anyway. Devoted Spirit has some healing maneuvers, but they are carefully themed as inspiration and drive to fight on in spite of wounds rather than being bathed in divine light which closes wounds or something -- note that hit points represent many things, and your ability to turn blows into less serious ones (i.e. something that can be affected by inspiration) is an explicitly-called-out one.Look, I've been playing fighters since 1978. Under the older systems when wizard was getting time stop (when it still allowed the caster to inflict damage on others) and meteor swarm the fighter was getting +4 hit points. It was pathetic. I understand the desire to make fighter-types more powerful at high levels. But I don't think making spell-lists and then calling the spells "maneuvers" is the way to do it.They're not spells. They don't work like spells. They don't have spell-like effects. They don't have spell limitations or flavor. They more often replicate a feat-like ability than a semi-magical one. ALL THAT THEY HAVE IN COMMON WITH SPELLS IS A SIMILAR MANNER OF PRESENTATION. Now, getting to that "I've been playing fighters since 1978" comment -- I personally feel that the vast majority of ToB opposition comes from people who have been playing fighters for years and who are feeling defensive that a fighter-type class that actually doesn't suck and gets nice things has come out. For some reason, they feel the need to bash it, even if they don't understand it. They call the Tome of Battle "too anime" (this is a flavor argument -- if they've ever done anything like "I've got a katana but I'm using the stats for a bastard sword" or "I'm playing a fighter mechanically but my character calls herself an amazon/gladiator/viking/whatever", then they're being hippocrites). They call maneuvers "spells" (discussed above). They cry out about it being overpowered (it's been shown that barbarians and fighters can dish out similar amounts of damage and take similar amounts of punishment, but it takes a bit of know-how). They do all of this without bothering to inform themselves about the book they're talking about in the first place (willing ignorance is the one thing in this world, even more than war, politics, or even freaking hate crimes, that pushes all my buttons). Let me make this abundantly clear. The Tome of Battle does not substantially change D&D's power curve. What it does, primarily, is give melee characters OPTIONS. Options, like spellcasters have been getting for generations. This is not a bad thing. As you noted, fighters got +4 hp compared to the wizard's 9th level spells, which naturally makes the fighter-type feel small in the pants. Now, the martial adepts get a list of options to play with themselves, freedom in using them from one battle to the next, and interesting abilities that are difficult to replicate through magic. For some reason, some people think that this is a problem -- as if giving a class something unique, something to set it apart from the others, and something that the friggin' wizard can't do goes against some sacred writ or something. I apologize if this is seen as a personal attack; this is not its intent. I'm just freaking sick and tired of seeing grognard ToB-hate, even from people who wouldn't normally be grognards |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 10:49 PM | Not really -- I attack the CustServ ruling, while you attack the maneuver. We both agree using it for what CustServ says it can be used for is ridiculous, but we approach that claim from different angles.Your first complaint -- you mean you think they're spells because they have level prerequisites (which is really all that the level of a maneuver factors into aside from the odd save DC and the maneuver-granting items) and are presented alphabetically in a list? Just like the PHB2 feats, for instance? Oh, wait, those make a better analogy than spells, since several feats require other feats, just like maneuvers have maneuver prereqs, and the cost for a maneuver is generally on par with a feat (Martial Study). As for your second complaint, buy the book and look through the list of maneuvers before you make the claim about having spell-like powers. Iron Heart Surge is up there as one of the two most powerful maneuvers, and is hardly representative of the book as a whole. The only disciplines with spell-like effects are Desert Wind (fire damage, one teleport, flight) and Shadow Hand (cold damage, teleports, distance attacks) -- all of which are only open to swordsages, which are described as blade wizards and have a mystic feel to them anyway. Devoted Spirit has some healing maneuvers, but they are carefully themed as inspiration and drive to fight on in spite of wounds rather than being bathed in divine light which closes wounds or something -- note that hit points represent many things, and your ability to turn blows into less serious ones (i.e. something that can be affected by inspiration) is an explicitly-called-out one.They're not spells. They don't work like spells. They don't have spell-like effects. They don't have spell limitations or flavor. They more often replicate a feat-like ability than a semi-magical one. ALL THAT THEY HAVE IN COMMON WITH SPELLS IS A SIMILAR MANNER OF PRESENTATION. Now, getting to that "I've been playing fighters since 1978" comment -- I personally feel that the vast majority of ToB opposition comes from people who have been playing fighters for years and who are feeling defensive that a fighter-type class that actually doesn't suck and gets nice things has come out. For some reason, they feel the need to bash it, even if they don't understand it. They call the Tome of Battle "too anime" (this is a flavor argument -- if they've ever done anything like "I've got a katana but I'm using the stats for a bastard sword" or "I'm playing a fighter mechanically but my character calls herself an amazon/gladiator/viking/whatever", then they're being hippocrites). They call maneuvers "spells" (discussed above). They cry out about it being overpowered (it's been shown that barbarians and fighters can dish out similar amounts of damage and take similar amounts of punishment, but it takes a bit of know-how). They do all of this without bothering to inform themselves about the book they're talking about in the first place (willing ignorance is the one thing in this world, even more than war, politics, or even freaking hate crimes, that pushes all my buttons). Let me make this abundantly clear. The Tome of Battle does not substantially change D&D's power curve. What it does, primarily, is give melee characters OPTIONS. Options, like spellcasters have been getting for generations. This is not a bad thing. As you noted, fighters got +4 hp compared to the wizard's 9th level spells, which naturally makes the fighter-type feel small in the pants. Now, the martial adepts get a list of options to play with themselves, freedom in using them from one battle to the next, and interesting abilities that are difficult to replicate through magic. For some reason, some people think that this is a problem -- as if giving a class something unique, something to set it apart from the others, and something that the friggin' wizard can't do goes against some sacred writ or something. I apologize if this is seen as a personal attack; this is not its intent. I'm just freaking sick and tired of seeing grognard ToB-hate, even from people who wouldn't normally be grognards I'm not sure what a grognard is--I think that term's after my time--but maybe if people you usually respect have some serious criticizms of ToB you might consider the possibility that they're right. :) |
| runestar02-27-07, 10:55 PM | An option is not really an option when there is no conceivable reason why you would not use said option...:P |
| Tempest Stormwind02-27-07, 11:03 PM | I agree Iron Heart Surge is good -- perhaps even too good for its level (and definitely too good with the customer service ruling). However, I've noted it's one of the two strongest effects in the entire book (with White Raven Tactics beating it out -- oh, look, ANOTHER maneuver that gets infinitely stronger with the Customer Service ruling). I don't think it reflects the power of the book as a whole. Are there problems with the book? Yes. Does this mean the book's not worth using? Hardly. You pick up a book with more glaring errors and broken **** in it every time you read your Player's Handbook. (By the way, a grognard is a person who defends the old ways as the best ways regardless of the merits of the new ways or the failings of the old ways. The term comes from the French military, as a slang term applied to the Old Guard who were notorious for drinking lots of grog and complaining about all new things.) |
| CelestialBarbarian02-27-07, 11:10 PM | I agree Iron Heart Surge is good -- perhaps even too good for its level (and definitely too good with the customer service ruling). However, I've noted it's one of the two strongest effects in the entire book (with White Raven Tactics beating it out -- oh, look, ANOTHER maneuver that gets infinitely stronger with the Customer Service ruling). I don't think it reflects the power of the book as a whole. Are there problems with the book? Yes. Does this mean the book's not worth using? Hardly. You pick up a book with more glaring errors and broken **** in it every time you read your Player's Handbook. (By the way, a grognard is a person who defends the old ways as the best ways regardless of the merits of the new ways or the failings of the old ways. The term comes from the French military, as a slang term applied to the Old Guard who were notorious for drinking lots of grog and complaining about all new things.) The PHB has broken asterisks?! :eek: |
| Tempest Stormwind02-28-07, 02:45 PM | The PHB has broken asterisks?! :eek: You know what I meant. Look, this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=680285) goes over essentially every maneuver in the book and points out several of its most powerful combos. It's maintained by Tleilaxu_Ghola, who is one of the most informed names on character optimization on the Wizards forums (if not THE foremost optimizer). It should explain everything the book's capable of in a few minutes. Do note that the cheesy combos listed there generally rely on pre-existing cheese (i.e. Shambling Mound recursive loops, the Omniscificer trick, Nightsticks) to pull off. Everything it says on Iron Heart Surge has already been brought up here (although he hasn't updated with the Personal-range complaint). |
| CelestialBarbarian02-28-07, 02:55 PM | You know what I meant. Look, this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=680285) goes over essentially every maneuver in the book and points out several of its most powerful combos. It's maintained by Tleilaxu_Ghola, who is one of the most informed names on character optimization on the Wizards forums (if not THE foremost optimizer). It should explain everything the book's capable of in a few minutes. Do note that the cheesy combos listed there generally rely on pre-existing cheese (i.e. Shambling Mound recursive loops, the Omniscificer trick, Nightsticks) to pull off. Everything it says on Iron Heart Surge has already been brought up here (although he hasn't updated with the Personal-range complaint). Really, I just wanted to know whether the Ironheart Surge thingie this DM mentioned as a possible way for me to make a frenzied berserker not have to worry about attacking allies, and it sounds like it doesn't. |
| MerlintheTuna02-28-07, 04:31 PM | A 5th-level fighter-type can use a 3rd level non-magical spell to automatically remove an 6th level spell. And the worst thing it does is make an unplayable PrC playable?!A 5th level cleric can use a 3rd level spell (Magic Circle against Evil) to automatically protect against a 20th level Wizard's 9th level spell (Dominate Monster). And thus the world is torn asunder. [Further snippy remarks removed] |
| CelestialBarbarian02-28-07, 04:42 PM | A 5th level cleric can use a 3rd level spell (Magic Circle against Evil) to automatically protect against a 20th level Wizard's 9th level spell (Dominate Monster). And thus the world is torn asunder. [Further snippy remarks removed] Magic circle against evil will prevent someone from exercising control through a dominate monster. It will not prevent the establishment of the control or end the control. Once the magic circle ends, the control returns. Like I said in my previous post, I just came here to find out if a suggested "feat" could solve a specific problem. |
| Tempest Stormwind02-28-07, 04:46 PM | Magic circle against evil will prevent someone from exercising control through a dominate monster. It will not prevent the establishment of the control or end the control. Once the magic circle ends, the control returns. Like I said in my previous post, I just came here to find out if a suggested "feat" could solve a specific problem. Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).It does indeed prevent the establishment of control if you're warded. But as we've said, it *could* remove a frenzy, if the berserker were capable of taking the action needed to use Iron Heart Surge (which is questionable at best). |
| CelestialBarbarian02-28-07, 05:11 PM | It does indeed prevent the establishment of control if you're warded. But as we've said, it *could* remove a frenzy, if the berserker were capable of taking the action needed to use Iron Heart Surge (which is questionable at best). The very next line of the text makes clear that you can still target the creature with such an effect despite the warding. You surely saw that line but deliberately withheld it, just as the previous poster deliberately distorted what a magic circle really does. I am frankly sick of you immature, disruptive children grinding your petty little axes on my threads. I asked for help with a specific question, not an endless debate with children using deliberately distorting tactics like the two of you have used here. As zealots for the Tome of Battle, of which I'd heard little before (and all of it positive), you have persuaded me that a) Tome of Battle is most probably broken, and b) Tome of Battle zealots like you are most definitely broken. |
| Tempest Stormwind02-28-07, 05:23 PM | The very next line of the text makes clear that you can still target the creature with such an effect despite the warding. You surely saw that line but deliberately withheld it, just as the previous poster deliberately distorted what a magic circle really does.I did not say it prevented targeting. I said it prevented establishing control. If I dominate you, but you're under Protection from Evil, you aren't under my control at all. As for Merlin, think about it: If the dominate doesn't DO anything, due to a protection effect, then you're pretty much protected, no? If you're claiming you're still vulnerable to domination while in a magic circle, you may as well claim that you're still vulnerable to nonmagical weaponry with DR/Magic. I'd hardly call either of these distorting the truth -- that is, if you're in a magic circle, you're pretty much protected from mind control (alignment understood).I am frankly sick of you immature, disruptive children grinding your petty little axes on my threads.Translation: "And get off my lawn!" I asked for help with a specific question, not an endless debate with children using deliberately distorting tactics like the two of you have used here. As zealots for the Tome of Battle, of which I'd heard little before (and all of it positive), you have persuaded me that a) Tome of Battle is most probably broken, and b) Tome of Battle zealots like you are most definitely broken.Ad hominem again? WHILE calling us children? And shortly after cracking inane jokes about the language filter? As for B, that may be the case, but that's an issue between me and my psychiatrist, not me and you. As for A, it's just plain wrong -- you heard positive reviews, and we gave positive tips, WHILE pointing out the only real problems that had emerged so far had been due to CustServ. It's kind of like saying "Yeah, the Lexus is great, except for [insert problems here]". It's understood that the rest of the subject is incredible. |
| CelestialBarbarian02-28-07, 05:34 PM | Yeah, keep off the lawn. You and your little dog Toto, too. :D |