Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrPowell82 08-20-07, 10:29 PM	Honestly, if you are in combat, why would you waste a standard action to feint for an attack in the next round? The only way I see it as being useful is maybe like this: Combat has just started and you are more than your base speed away. I suppose you could feint as your standard action (while 35 some odd feet away) and then move your speed up to your opponent. Then you he will not have his Dex bonus to AC for your first attack. That sounds really dumb. It seems like there are a ton of better things you could do than feint and feinting from that far away doesn't even really make sense from a "real" perspective. Picture someone pretending to swing their sword one way while 40 feet away from you, then they run up and you are supposed to have fallen for their "feint". I think feinting should be a move action normally and improved feint should make it a free action... what say you all wise and powerful ones?
MrPowell82 08-20-07, 10:32 PM	ummm..
Dheran 08-21-07, 07:57 AM	Feinting takes a standard action so it's generally a slow way of gaining an advantage over an enemy. But there are some situations where it could be quite effective. Let's say your character is a Rogue with Spring Attack, Snap Kick, and a Belt of Battle. You Spring Attack next to the enemy, use two charges from the Belt to get an extra standard action, make a regular melee attack plus a Snap Kick, feint as the second standard action, then Spring away. The next round your enemy is denied their DEX bonus to AC so you Spring next to them, make a regular attack and add sneak attack damage, add another Snap Kick, and Spring away. If your enemy tries to run after your feint you can use up the last charge from the Belt to get an extra move action and chase them down. In two rounds you get 4 melee attacks and add sneak attack damage once, even against an enemy with Uncanny Dodge. Plus that enemy probably never gets to attack you.
bane_of_cuthbert 08-21-07, 08:15 AM	A less complicated way for finding a use for it is when you are facing an enemy with DR that you just can't seem to flank (lets say for argument's sake, he's backed into a corner). Attacking with normal weapon damage would probably end up as either no or single-digit damage. Feinting would pretty much be your only option to really hurt it unless you can find out what bypass's it's damage reduction. In fact this would probably go for most enemies, DR or not. Chances are, when you sneak attack, you'll probably deal more damage than if you had attacked normally on both rounds. And lets not forget that feinting can also help against an enemy which you just can't seem to hit.
foxtail 08-21-07, 08:21 AM	Edit: nvm.
jaelis 08-21-07, 09:11 AM	It can also be handy for a rogue fighting by himself.
Bihlbo 08-21-07, 11:15 AM	Against an amazingly agile foe (ex: 32 Dex and +6 shield AC) it negates most of the foe's advantage. If you have to roll a 20 to hit at all against this type of enemy, you're far better off feinting in one round, and actually hitting in the next - this would go for any character, not just rogues.
tyrecian 08-21-07, 06:48 PM	from the SRD: Feinting in Combat You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat To my knowledge you can't feint any time you are not in melee. Perhaps there is a feat, or class skill that allows this, but otherwise your examples of feinting and rushing an opponent are not gonna work. Feinting is a nice feature for rogues, who attain sneak attack if the feint is successful. If the rogue is not high enough to actually have improved feint they might have to use a standard action. BoC and Bhilbo have good ideas. It is also nice for say a 3rd level rogue, who is both small and using a weapon that might not do much damage (dagger). For them attacking every round without SA would resul in very little damage, in fact, less than feinting one round and getting sneak attack every other.
ToastedAmphibian 08-22-07, 09:35 PM	Sure feint can be usefull withought the Improved Feint skill! Take five levels in the Invisible Blade PRC. Feint as a free action, and you can always take 10.
tafkamhokie 08-23-07, 09:14 AM	Only time I've ever used it was when running a 3rd level rogue who got caught in a 1-on-1 fight with an imp. I had a small shortsword and a 12 Str for a whopping 1d4+1 damage and was up against DR5 that I could not overcome. Attacking every other round and doing 1d4+1+2d6-5 was accomplishing more than 1d4+1-5 was ever going to.
RobbyPants 08-23-07, 09:51 AM	A less complicated way for finding a use for it is when you are facing an enemy with DR that you just can't seem to flank (lets say for argument's sake, he's backed into a corner). Attacking with normal weapon damage would probably end up as either no or single-digit damage. Feinting would pretty much be your only option to really hurt it unless you can find out what bypass's it's damage reduction. In fact this would probably go for most enemies, DR or not. Chances are, when you sneak attack, you'll probably deal more damage than if you had attacked normally on both rounds. And lets not forget that feinting can also help against an enemy which you just can't seem to hit. It can also be handy for a rogue fighting by himself. Agreed and agreed. I guess if you want to make it even more simple, just ask this one question: Will you do more damage with one attack feinting or two without? If you'll do more damage feinting, then it's advantageous. Of course, in a "typical" game, you'll be much better off simply flanking, but maybe you don't always have that option (as outlined above). ;)
navar100 08-24-07, 02:05 AM	Probably a House Rule but ... My DM allowed me to feint as a standard action such that I can move away from my opponent as my move action without provoking an AoO. Complete Scoundrel came out a month later that allowed this as a Skill Trick. I'm of the opinion that trick, and most tricks, don't really need to have points spent on them specifically for the trick. Just allowing the associated skills to be used in those ways as is is really suffice. Any skill trick powerful enough really to warrant some cost should be a feat. /end minor derail
Someone 08-24-07, 03:09 AM	Feinting is a lot like TWF- anyone can do it, but without the appropriate feat, they do so poorly. Although feint, tumble away, attack, tumble away, repeat can save you from a potentially nasty full attack back from your opponent.
Istaran 08-24-07, 03:35 AM	If your opponent has improved uncanny dodge, you may be better off feinting even without the feat if you are a rogue. Similarly if they have the Threefold Mask of the Chimera soulmeld in place, or any other power which blocks flanking but not crits/SA. (Monsters that are immune to flank tend to be immune to crits, but that is not universally true)
Feredenil 08-24-07, 03:52 AM	Let's not forget 'Haste'. Move towards opponent, use Haste to feint, sneak attack. next round, use haste to feint, full attack (all sneak attacks)
Fireclave 08-24-07, 04:08 AM	Let's not forget 'Haste'. Move towards opponent, use Haste to feint, sneak attack. next round, use haste to feint, full attack (all sneak attacks) 3.5 haste doesn't grant additional actions.
Feredenil 08-24-07, 04:48 AM	I've just checked it and you're right Raichu...err Fireclave (!) 3rd Edition's haste was TOO uber. Thank god they changed it. I'm applying it to my 3rd adventure with my newb characters no matter 'how' much they'll pout.:D
BW0222 08-24-07, 06:19 AM	MrPowell82, Is feinting without Improved Feint useless?? It is pretty useless without it yes. First, you need to win the bluff vs. sense motive (+ BAB). In many cases, it is only 50% likely at best. Second, against a non-humaniod it is at -4, a creature with animal intelligence it is at -8, and of course it is useless against any non-intelligent creature - most vermin, oozes, some undead, etc. Third, since you can't attack until your next initiative (baring it provoking an AoO) your foe can take any action to defend itself -- including attacking you, withdrawing to a place you can't reach it, or stepping back and drinking a potion, casting a spell, etc. Forth, since you can't attack until your next initiative (baring it provoking an AoO) all its friends can use their action to help defend your opponent -- including attacking you, readying action, moving between you and him, etc. A 5th-level rogue using feint might be say +12 on his bluff check (including some synergies and a good charisma). However, even an ogre is little more than 50% likely to fall for it (BAB and non-humaniod). Even if it works, the ogre could withdraw and move around a corner. You can't charge it and he'd still get an AoO even if you did.
Nephlite 08-24-07, 10:35 AM	MrPowell82, It is pretty useless without it yes. First, you need to win the bluff vs. sense motive (+ BAB). In many cases, it is only 50% likely at best. Second, against a non-humaniod it is at -4, a creature with animal intelligence it is at -8, and of course it is useless against any non-intelligent creature - most vermin, oozes, some undead, etc. Third, since you can't attack until your next initiative (baring it provoking an AoO) your foe can take any action to defend itself -- including attacking you, withdrawing to a place you can't reach it, or stepping back and drinking a potion, casting a spell, etc. Forth, since you can't attack until your next initiative (baring it provoking an AoO) all its friends can use their action to help defend your opponent -- including attacking you, readying action, moving between you and him, etc. A 5th-level rogue using feint might be say +12 on his bluff check (including some synergies and a good charisma). However, even an ogre is little more than 50% likely to fall for it (BAB and non-humaniod). Even if it works, the ogre could withdraw and move around a corner. You can't charge it and he'd still get an AoO even if you did. Isn't Withdrawing a little too intelligent for an Ogre? We should think like a low Int creature here not a combat genuis like we may be. He won't be afraid most likely and kep fighting.
BW0222 08-24-07, 01:32 PM	Nephlite Isn't Withdrawing a little too intelligent for an Ogre? We should think like a low Int creature here not a combat genuis like we may be. He won't be afraid most likely and kep fighting. I did say, could. It was merely an example that the ogre could do a lot of things on his initiative which might prevent (or at least make it difficult) to get your attack. An ogre has a 10 wisdom. That is average common sense and cunning. Certainly, if the ogre saw that the PC was sneak attacking via bluffing/feinting (either him or some of his friends), and he was low on hit points, it might be a good time to withdraw. I wouldn't rule that a PC with a 10 wisdom isn't wise enough to be able to take reasonable defensive measures against a feint, so I don't think I would say that an ogre couldn't either. I don't base lack of fear on intelligence either. Again, that is a wisdom thing. It definitely falls under common sense. Certainly, the ogre might conclude that just hitting him might finish him off sooner or that he has enough hit points to stand the hit -- same as many front-line PCs faced with bluffs continue to attack. However, I'm certainly willing to accept that the ogre is cunning enough to use obvious counters to being fainted - especially if he knows it is coming and is low on hit points. Withdraw by itself is a reasonable tactic for ogres -- since it allows them to utilize their reach. I don't base tactics on Int. It is more of a wisdom thing. Intelligence only comes into play when it would need to make knowledge, spellcraft, etc. checks to know something. Wisdo then takes over, determining whether one is cunning enough to act upon it. You don't need to make any specific role to realize that you are being feinted. Wisdom is enough to justify one taking common sense counters to it. Withdraw, moving behind friends, asking friends for help, disarming with a reach weapon, sunder their weapon, etc. is hardly beyond anyone with a reasonable wisdom once you are aware what the opponent is going to you. IMO, taking an action to avoid an up-coming feint attack (once you witness a person using it) is no more cunning than getting out of flanking (once you witness someone using sneak attacks while flanking). If the ogre has enough common sense to realize that last time when the person tossed dirt in his he took a shortsword to the kidneys. Obviously, this time it is better to move back around a corner and wait until he can see better.