Is it an action to change from 1handed to two handed grip? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it an action to change from 1handed to two handed grip? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
unundindur
08-06-07, 06:16 PM When you wield a long sword, is it an action, and in any case which to switch from holding it with two hands, to holding it in one hand and vice persa?

I thought of this when I saw the thread about disarming. Could you for example disarm someone holdign it in two hands to the the benefit, then count as unarmed and grab the weapon and toss it?

Another use would be a longsword and the deflect arrows feat. Could you attack with two hands, then deflect an incomming missile and attack again with two hands?

Would quick draw have anything to do with this? :rolleyes:
tarkin
08-06-07, 06:20 PM It is a free action to change the grip on a sword.

That lets you
1. move it from onehand to two handed

2. Move it from two handed to one handed

3. Move it from right hand to left hand.

------

It does NOT let you sheath it. You can not be unarmed as long as it is in your hand.

You would have to drop it to count as unarmed to grab another weapon

---------
Changing grip, being an action, must be done on your turn. You can not do it as an immediate action. Also, it is limited by the DM - if you do too many free actions, he is supposed to stop you.

If you wanted to deflect, you need to do it as follows:

1. Make your attacks.
2. Change grip at end of your turn.
3. Wait for everyone else to go
4. Change back.

HOWEVER this is technially an abuse. There is not suposed to really be a 'wait for everyone else to go'. They are supposed to be going while you do the attack, the waiting for them to go is just an artifact of how we adjucate the round.

It would be up to the DM to decide if he were to allow you to use this, or rule it not possible
locustechpriest
08-06-07, 06:29 PM Never mind. It seems my question is answered.
justinthebig
08-07-07, 03:55 AM I am of the understanding that changing a weapon from one hand to the other is a move action as it is manipulating an object. I can't remember exactly where this was written; it may have been in Sage Advice in a Dragon Mag or online? I have been furiously searching my books but so far to no avail. Switching grips from one handed to two handed is, as far as I know, a free action.
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 04:22 AM Is it actually enumerated as an action somewhere, or are we just drawing conjecture that it's a move action, or even a free action? Maybe it's a non-action, like turning to face something 'behind' you. Maybe it's part of an action.

Is there anything written that makes it a separate action, something that you can't just do as a part of a normal action? Like decide when you've been using a weapon one-handed to, as a part of the attack, make it a two-handed attack, and then release one hand as you finish the attack?
Novacat
08-07-07, 05:55 AM I do not believe this action is addressed in the rules, but I run it as a non-action. If you have both hands to dedicate to a single weapon, you can manipulate it however you want. A wizard holding a quarterstaff who casts a spell, for instance, would still be able to make attacks of opportunity with that quarterstaff, even though he used one hand to cast and he needs two to swing the stick.

From personal experience, I know that such manipulations take almost no time at all, as the description for free actions.
Shadowfax7
08-07-07, 09:56 AM I am of the understanding that changing a weapon from one hand to the other is a move action as it is manipulating an object. I can't remember exactly where this was written; it may have been in Sage Advice in a Dragon Mag or online? I have been furiously searching my books but so far to no avail. Switching grips from one handed to two handed is, as far as I know, a free action.This was stated in either Sage Advice or Rules of the Game. It depends on whether you want to follow those rules.

IMC I follow those rules, changing a weapon from one hand to another hand is a Move Action, but just changing your grip on a weapon from 1h to 2h, or vica versa, is a free action.
Mirtek
08-07-07, 10:10 AM HOWEVER this is technially an abuse. There is not suposed to really be a 'wait for everyone else to go'. They are supposed to be going while you do the attack, the waiting for them to go is just an artifact of how we adjucate the round.
I agree on the abuse thing and because of that I would not allow it. Changing is a free action, but one that can only be done before making the first attack.

If you attack two handed you can't later chose to take one hand away to be able to deflect arrows. The combat is supposed to happen simultaneously. So the guy shooting the arrow at you at initiative 7 is supposed to be shooting the arrow at the same time you are making your two-handed attack at initiative 12. Taking one hand away at the end of you attack doesn't matter because you were shoot during you attack, even if we play it out successively (and have to live with the flaws that come from this)
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 12:35 PM IMC I follow those rules, changing a weapon from one hand to another hand is a Move Action, but just changing your grip on a weapon from 1h to 2h, or vica versa, is a free action.

So then two free actions are worth a move action, or ... why can't you go "free action, one handed (left) to two handed grip, then another free action, two handed to one handed (right) grip"?
Shadowfax7
08-07-07, 12:49 PM So then two free actions are worth a move action, or ... why can't you go "free action, one handed (left) to two handed grip, then another free action, two handed to one handed (right) grip"? Well . . . because it's how I choose to do it in my campaign.

However, if you want to know one of the reasons it is that it's not just weapons that are switched from hand to hand. A weapon can be switched to a light shield hand as well. Either way, free actions are limited by the DM, as well as the type of free actions.
Bopple
08-07-07, 12:52 PM If it needs a move action, shouldn't we disallow a double weapon to be used as a 2h weapon when being disarmed or making an AoO?
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 01:27 PM Well . . . because it's how I choose to do it in my campaign.

Okay, fine. So then ... why do you do it that way?
Shadowfax7
08-07-07, 04:04 PM Okay, fine. So then ... why do you do it that way?Look below that line, I gave you a reason.
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 04:25 PM Look below that line, I gave you a reason.

I looked before I posted my question, and I looked again, and I still don't see a reason for your ruling.
Shadowfax7
08-07-07, 09:00 PM I looked before I posted my question, and I looked again, and I still don't see a reason for your ruling.

However, if you want to know one of the reasons it is that it's not just weapons that are switched from hand to hand. A weapon can be switched to a light shield hand as well. Either way, free actions are limited by the DM, as well as the type of free actions.

Thus it isn't just a matter of switching the grip on a weapon 2x, it also can involve shields, objects, etc. in the other hand.
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 09:09 PM Thus it isn't just a matter of switching the grip on a weapon 2x, it also can involve shields, objects, etc. in the other hand.

So then, still the question remains, why are you lumping weapons in with that group with your houserule?
Longarms
08-08-07, 12:13 AM "HOWEVER this is technially an abuse."

I don't think it is really an abuse. An abuse is usually characterized by one or more of the following:
- it was unintended by the people making the rules AND
- it is overpowered AND
- it is repugnant to realism

Here, I don't think dropping being able to deflect weapons at the same time you are weilding a one-handed weapon with two-hands as being overpowered at all. You are, after all, accepting a drawback by not weilding a legitimate two-handed weapon or a shield, and so that balances your ability to now be able to deflect weapons.

I don't think it is repugnant to realism either. Once you accept the idea of a person blocking an incoming arrow with their hand, it doesn't seem like that much more of a leap to imagine someone momentarily dropping a hand from their sword to do the same.

The only one of the above that I can see is that this idea probably wasn't intended by the rules. I personally don't see that alone as making it rise to the level of an abuse, but I guess reasonable minds could differ on that.

As far as the disarming thing, I don't see anything wrong with letting a PC drop a hand from their one handed sword to disarm with that hand. I wouldn't let the PC get the extra +4 bonus though, since they are disarming with one hand.
justinthebig
08-08-07, 01:05 AM For those interested I have found the reference from Sage Advice by Andy Collins.

Dragon Magazine Issue 328 page 80 -"Switching a weapon from one hand to another is certainly more complex than simply dropping it. At the very least, switching hands would require you to use one hand to take the weapon from the other and at most it involves using both hands together in a coordinated action. Either way that sounds a lot like drawing a weapon which is a move action."

That sounds fair. But how about if you have quick draw or a character with a +1 base attack or more and incorporating the drawing of a weapon into his move? You would logically have to allow the benefits of both if you allowing the afore mentioned.

In regards to the changing between one and two handed grip, I would rule that if a player states he is using his sword with two hands he is continuing to use it with two hands until he states otherwise. Example: a fighter has one attack with one hand, 2nd attack with two hands and third attack with two hands. On his next round it can be presumed that his grip has not changed until the player states it has for an attack or deflect arrow or whatever else requires one free hand. So second round could look like this: First attack with two hands, second attack disarm action to grab an item off an adversary, third attack two handed grip again. I don't see how allowing this could in any way unbalance the game. I think it would be one of those free actions such as drawing an arrow for your bow. I would rule that changing hands is more of a manipulated action as opposed to an unspoken dynamic in combat and would be a move equivalent action. Of course you would have to make sure players do not abuse the system in using two free actions to change hands by stepping in as DM to limit free actions.

That is just my take on it of course.

Justin.
Shadowfax7
08-08-07, 07:09 AM So then, still the question remains, why are you lumping weapons in with that group with your houserule?Because I agree with the Sage's advice listed above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unundindur 08-06-07, 06:16 PM	When you wield a long sword, is it an action, and in any case which to switch from holding it with two hands, to holding it in one hand and vice persa? I thought of this when I saw the thread about disarming. Could you for example disarm someone holdign it in two hands to the the benefit, then count as unarmed and grab the weapon and toss it? Another use would be a longsword and the deflect arrows feat. Could you attack with two hands, then deflect an incomming missile and attack again with two hands? Would quick draw have anything to do with this? :rolleyes:
tarkin 08-06-07, 06:20 PM	It is a free action to change the grip on a sword. That lets you 1. move it from onehand to two handed 2. Move it from two handed to one handed 3. Move it from right hand to left hand. ------ It does NOT let you sheath it. You can not be unarmed as long as it is in your hand. You would have to drop it to count as unarmed to grab another weapon --------- Changing grip, being an action, must be done on your turn. You can not do it as an immediate action. Also, it is limited by the DM - if you do too many free actions, he is supposed to stop you. If you wanted to deflect, you need to do it as follows: 1. Make your attacks. 2. Change grip at end of your turn. 3. Wait for everyone else to go 4. Change back. HOWEVER this is technially an abuse. There is not suposed to really be a 'wait for everyone else to go'. They are supposed to be going while you do the attack, the waiting for them to go is just an artifact of how we adjucate the round. It would be up to the DM to decide if he were to allow you to use this, or rule it not possible
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 06:29 PM	Never mind. It seems my question is answered.
justinthebig 08-07-07, 03:55 AM	I am of the understanding that changing a weapon from one hand to the other is a move action as it is manipulating an object. I can't remember exactly where this was written; it may have been in Sage Advice in a Dragon Mag or online? I have been furiously searching my books but so far to no avail. Switching grips from one handed to two handed is, as far as I know, a free action.
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 04:22 AM	Is it actually enumerated as an action somewhere, or are we just drawing conjecture that it's a move action, or even a free action? Maybe it's a non-action, like turning to face something 'behind' you. Maybe it's part of an action. Is there anything written that makes it a separate action, something that you can't just do as a part of a normal action? Like decide when you've been using a weapon one-handed to, as a part of the attack, make it a two-handed attack, and then release one hand as you finish the attack?
Novacat 08-07-07, 05:55 AM	I do not believe this action is addressed in the rules, but I run it as a non-action. If you have both hands to dedicate to a single weapon, you can manipulate it however you want. A wizard holding a quarterstaff who casts a spell, for instance, would still be able to make attacks of opportunity with that quarterstaff, even though he used one hand to cast and he needs two to swing the stick. From personal experience, I know that such manipulations take almost no time at all, as the description for free actions.
Shadowfax7 08-07-07, 09:56 AM	I am of the understanding that changing a weapon from one hand to the other is a move action as it is manipulating an object. I can't remember exactly where this was written; it may have been in Sage Advice in a Dragon Mag or online? I have been furiously searching my books but so far to no avail. Switching grips from one handed to two handed is, as far as I know, a free action.This was stated in either Sage Advice or Rules of the Game. It depends on whether you want to follow those rules. IMC I follow those rules, changing a weapon from one hand to another hand is a Move Action, but just changing your grip on a weapon from 1h to 2h, or vica versa, is a free action.
Mirtek 08-07-07, 10:10 AM	HOWEVER this is technially an abuse. There is not suposed to really be a 'wait for everyone else to go'. They are supposed to be going while you do the attack, the waiting for them to go is just an artifact of how we adjucate the round. I agree on the abuse thing and because of that I would not allow it. Changing is a free action, but one that can only be done before making the first attack. If you attack two handed you can't later chose to take one hand away to be able to deflect arrows. The combat is supposed to happen simultaneously. So the guy shooting the arrow at you at initiative 7 is supposed to be shooting the arrow at the same time you are making your two-handed attack at initiative 12. Taking one hand away at the end of you attack doesn't matter because you were shoot during you attack, even if we play it out successively (and have to live with the flaws that come from this)
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 12:35 PM	IMC I follow those rules, changing a weapon from one hand to another hand is a Move Action, but just changing your grip on a weapon from 1h to 2h, or vica versa, is a free action. So then two free actions are worth a move action, or ... why can't you go "free action, one handed (left) to two handed grip, then another free action, two handed to one handed (right) grip"?
Shadowfax7 08-07-07, 12:49 PM	So then two free actions are worth a move action, or ... why can't you go "free action, one handed (left) to two handed grip, then another free action, two handed to one handed (right) grip"? Well . . . because it's how I choose to do it in my campaign. However, if you want to know one of the reasons it is that it's not just weapons that are switched from hand to hand. A weapon can be switched to a light shield hand as well. Either way, free actions are limited by the DM, as well as the type of free actions.
Bopple 08-07-07, 12:52 PM	If it needs a move action, shouldn't we disallow a double weapon to be used as a 2h weapon when being disarmed or making an AoO?
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 01:27 PM	Well . . . because it's how I choose to do it in my campaign. Okay, fine. So then ... why do you do it that way?
Shadowfax7 08-07-07, 04:04 PM	Okay, fine. So then ... why do you do it that way?Look below that line, I gave you a reason.
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 04:25 PM	Look below that line, I gave you a reason. I looked before I posted my question, and I looked again, and I still don't see a reason for your ruling.
Shadowfax7 08-07-07, 09:00 PM	I looked before I posted my question, and I looked again, and I still don't see a reason for your ruling. However, if you want to know one of the reasons it is that it's not just weapons that are switched from hand to hand. A weapon can be switched to a light shield hand as well. Either way, free actions are limited by the DM, as well as the type of free actions. Thus it isn't just a matter of switching the grip on a weapon 2x, it also can involve shields, objects, etc. in the other hand.
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 09:09 PM	Thus it isn't just a matter of switching the grip on a weapon 2x, it also can involve shields, objects, etc. in the other hand. So then, still the question remains, why are you lumping weapons in with that group with your houserule?
Longarms 08-08-07, 12:13 AM	"HOWEVER this is technially an abuse." I don't think it is really an abuse. An abuse is usually characterized by one or more of the following: - it was unintended by the people making the rules AND - it is overpowered AND - it is repugnant to realism Here, I don't think dropping being able to deflect weapons at the same time you are weilding a one-handed weapon with two-hands as being overpowered at all. You are, after all, accepting a drawback by not weilding a legitimate two-handed weapon or a shield, and so that balances your ability to now be able to deflect weapons. I don't think it is repugnant to realism either. Once you accept the idea of a person blocking an incoming arrow with their hand, it doesn't seem like that much more of a leap to imagine someone momentarily dropping a hand from their sword to do the same. The only one of the above that I can see is that this idea probably wasn't intended by the rules. I personally don't see that alone as making it rise to the level of an abuse, but I guess reasonable minds could differ on that. As far as the disarming thing, I don't see anything wrong with letting a PC drop a hand from their one handed sword to disarm with that hand. I wouldn't let the PC get the extra +4 bonus though, since they are disarming with one hand.
justinthebig 08-08-07, 01:05 AM	For those interested I have found the reference from Sage Advice by Andy Collins. Dragon Magazine Issue 328 page 80 -"Switching a weapon from one hand to another is certainly more complex than simply dropping it. At the very least, switching hands would require you to use one hand to take the weapon from the other and at most it involves using both hands together in a coordinated action. Either way that sounds a lot like drawing a weapon which is a move action." That sounds fair. But how about if you have quick draw or a character with a +1 base attack or more and incorporating the drawing of a weapon into his move? You would logically have to allow the benefits of both if you allowing the afore mentioned. In regards to the changing between one and two handed grip, I would rule that if a player states he is using his sword with two hands he is continuing to use it with two hands until he states otherwise. Example: a fighter has one attack with one hand, 2nd attack with two hands and third attack with two hands. On his next round it can be presumed that his grip has not changed until the player states it has for an attack or deflect arrow or whatever else requires one free hand. So second round could look like this: First attack with two hands, second attack disarm action to grab an item off an adversary, third attack two handed grip again. I don't see how allowing this could in any way unbalance the game. I think it would be one of those free actions such as drawing an arrow for your bow. I would rule that changing hands is more of a manipulated action as opposed to an unspoken dynamic in combat and would be a move equivalent action. Of course you would have to make sure players do not abuse the system in using two free actions to change hands by stepping in as DM to limit free actions. That is just my take on it of course. Justin.
Shadowfax7 08-08-07, 07:09 AM	So then, still the question remains, why are you lumping weapons in with that group with your houserule?Because I agree with the Sage's advice listed above.