Is it possible to simulate a Rebuke attempt with UMD? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it possible to simulate a Rebuke attempt with UMD? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZeHgS
08-07-07, 04:38 AM So, is it possible to simulate a Rebuke or Turn attempt with UMD?
Radijs
08-07-07, 05:58 AM Do you mean actually rebuking a group of undead standing around you? Or to channel a rebuke attempt into a magic item?

In the first case the awnser is a clear resounding "no".

In the second case I don't know anymore. The PhB gave an example that you can use UMD to simulate a turn undead. But a recent FAQ ruling has thrown that out.
jaelis
08-07-07, 07:22 AM Actually, I think I have a handle on it now.

Yes, you can simulate a turn/rebuke attempt to activate an item, using the emulate class feature rule. But you can't "sacrifice" a turn undead attempt, because you don't have any. So for instance, if a chalice required a cleric to make a turning check capable of affecting a 3HD undead creature, then UMD would allow a rogue to emulate that. If the chalice required a cleric to sacrifice a turn undead attempt, then it wouldn't.

The way I would keep them separate is this: if you were really a cleric trying to activate the item, and there happened to be undead around, would you be able to turn the undead and activate the item at the same time? If yes, then UMD would work (but wouldn't actually turn any undead, of course.) If not, then UMD wouldn't work... the item doesn't actually require you to use the ability, it requires you to sacrifice a power that a rogue just doesn't have.

I think that is consistent with the various examples and ruling, though it is a contentious topic.
ZeHgS
08-07-07, 02:14 PM Thank you =D

And Radijs, where can I find this FAQ?
tarkin
08-07-07, 03:34 PM The FAQ is findable here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rules

If you are playing 3.5, you want the v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ.

If you are playing 3.0, they have different FAQs for different books. I would only consult them if you could not find an answer in the v3.5 one.
Vegepygmy
08-08-07, 03:46 AM In the second case I don't know anymore. The PhB gave an example that you can use UMD to simulate a turn undead. But a recent FAQ ruling has thrown that out.Can you quote that FAQ ruling for us?
Radijs
08-08-07, 04:31 AM No I don't think I can. But if you search the forums for runestaff and use magic device you should get results.
jaelis
08-08-07, 07:28 AM Here is an exchange with Customer Service:

Can a character with sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device activate and cast spells with a runestaff or similar item that requires the user to sacrifice spell slots? The argument is that this can be done using the Emulate a Class Feature rules.

No they cannot. They have nothing to sacrifice.

Would the same logic apply to an item or effect that required the sacrifice of a turn undead attempt, a paladin's smite good ability, or other daily-use effect? The Player's Handbook entry talks about a rogue using UMD to activate a chalice that requires a turn undead attempt, and this has always been a little confusing.

It's not the same thing. You're not really "sacrificing" a turn undead attempt. You're emulating an ability.

But with a Runestaff, the required spells to sacrifice are an actual resource outside the activation of the item itself and cannot be performed because you don't have anything to sacrifice.
kalstrand
08-08-07, 06:24 PM I totally disagree with Customer Service in this respect. If it requires you spend one of your limited Turn Undead attempts it is no different than having to spend one of your limited number of spell slots.
Vegepygmy
08-09-07, 02:09 AM No I don't think I can. But if you search the forums for runestaff and use magic device you should get results.Why would I search the forums for a FAQ ruling? Wouldn't it be in...oh, I don't know...the FAQ?
Radijs
08-09-07, 03:43 AM Because its fun?

Read a few posts back Vegepygmy. Its been quoted.

I've said before about the ruling that I both agree and disagree. The example in the PhB looks a lot like Lidda actually spending a turn attempt which causes me to disagree.
On the other hand runestaves are very cheap for what they do. Especially if you can get them to do it for free. Wizards and sorcerors pay with their spell slots. Rogue's dont.
Obsidianjaerc
08-09-07, 04:23 AM For the record I believe that Cust_Serv can be fallible, just like anything else. But when in agreement the logical and balanced argument put forth by jaelis, I have to say I side with the both of them.

There is no sense in comparing Apples and Oranges (http://improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html). ;)
Vegepygmy
08-11-07, 12:55 AM Read a few posts back Vegepygmy. Its been quoted.I see no quotes from the FAQ. Are you under the mistaken impression that a response from Customer Service is the same thing as a FAQ ruling?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZeHgS 08-07-07, 04:38 AM	So, is it possible to simulate a Rebuke or Turn attempt with UMD?
Radijs 08-07-07, 05:58 AM	Do you mean actually rebuking a group of undead standing around you? Or to channel a rebuke attempt into a magic item? In the first case the awnser is a clear resounding "no". In the second case I don't know anymore. The PhB gave an example that you can use UMD to simulate a turn undead. But a recent FAQ ruling has thrown that out.
jaelis 08-07-07, 07:22 AM	Actually, I think I have a handle on it now. Yes, you can simulate a turn/rebuke attempt to activate an item, using the emulate class feature rule. But you can't "sacrifice" a turn undead attempt, because you don't have any. So for instance, if a chalice required a cleric to make a turning check capable of affecting a 3HD undead creature, then UMD would allow a rogue to emulate that. If the chalice required a cleric to sacrifice a turn undead attempt, then it wouldn't. The way I would keep them separate is this: if you were really a cleric trying to activate the item, and there happened to be undead around, would you be able to turn the undead and activate the item at the same time? If yes, then UMD would work (but wouldn't actually turn any undead, of course.) If not, then UMD wouldn't work... the item doesn't actually require you to use the ability, it requires you to sacrifice a power that a rogue just doesn't have. I think that is consistent with the various examples and ruling, though it is a contentious topic.
ZeHgS 08-07-07, 02:14 PM	Thank you =D And Radijs, where can I find this FAQ?
tarkin 08-07-07, 03:34 PM	The FAQ is findable here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rules If you are playing 3.5, you want the v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ. If you are playing 3.0, they have different FAQs for different books. I would only consult them if you could not find an answer in the v3.5 one.
Vegepygmy 08-08-07, 03:46 AM	In the second case I don't know anymore. The PhB gave an example that you can use UMD to simulate a turn undead. But a recent FAQ ruling has thrown that out.Can you quote that FAQ ruling for us?
Radijs 08-08-07, 04:31 AM	No I don't think I can. But if you search the forums for runestaff and use magic device you should get results.
jaelis 08-08-07, 07:28 AM	Here is an exchange with Customer Service: Can a character with sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device activate and cast spells with a runestaff or similar item that requires the user to sacrifice spell slots? The argument is that this can be done using the Emulate a Class Feature rules. No they cannot. They have nothing to sacrifice. Would the same logic apply to an item or effect that required the sacrifice of a turn undead attempt, a paladin's smite good ability, or other daily-use effect? The Player's Handbook entry talks about a rogue using UMD to activate a chalice that requires a turn undead attempt, and this has always been a little confusing. It's not the same thing. You're not really "sacrificing" a turn undead attempt. You're emulating an ability. But with a Runestaff, the required spells to sacrifice are an actual resource outside the activation of the item itself and cannot be performed because you don't have anything to sacrifice.
kalstrand 08-08-07, 06:24 PM	I totally disagree with Customer Service in this respect. If it requires you spend one of your limited Turn Undead attempts it is no different than having to spend one of your limited number of spell slots.
Vegepygmy 08-09-07, 02:09 AM	No I don't think I can. But if you search the forums for runestaff and use magic device you should get results.Why would I search the forums for a FAQ ruling? Wouldn't it be in...oh, I don't know...the FAQ?
Radijs 08-09-07, 03:43 AM	Because its fun? Read a few posts back Vegepygmy. Its been quoted. I've said before about the ruling that I both agree and disagree. The example in the PhB looks a lot like Lidda actually spending a turn attempt which causes me to disagree. On the other hand runestaves are very cheap for what they do. Especially if you can get them to do it for free. Wizards and sorcerors pay with their spell slots. Rogue's dont.
Obsidianjaerc 08-09-07, 04:23 AM	For the record I believe that Cust_Serv can be fallible, just like anything else. But when in agreement the logical and balanced argument put forth by jaelis, I have to say I side with the both of them. There is no sense in comparing Apples and Oranges (http://improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html). ;)
Vegepygmy 08-11-07, 12:55 AM	Read a few posts back Vegepygmy. Its been quoted.I see no quotes from the FAQ. Are you under the mistaken impression that a response from Customer Service is the same thing as a FAQ ruling?