Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 01-21-08, 11:28 PM	I'm trying to determine if Knock-Down is a legal 3.5 feat. I've seen it in Deities and Demigods, but I believe that book is 3.0 -- correct me if I'm wrong. Does it exist in any 3.5 book?
NoldorForce 01-21-08, 11:34 PM	Book? No. 3.5 source? Yes. Take a look at the Deities section of the SRD - it's there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).
Orenmir 01-21-08, 11:49 PM	Book? No. 3.5 source? Yes. Take a look at the Deities section of the SRD - it's there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). What? How can it not exist in a 3.5 book if it is in the SRD?
Bopple 01-22-08, 12:05 AM	Well, divine feats section of SRD is not completely reliable. Some of the stuffs suggest that it is just a straight copy-over(you can find a couple of copy-over errors & peculiarities). And it's pretty certain that Knockdown is designed around low-damage. While it does not directly against 3.5 rules change, it is clearly out of the 3.5 trend. I'd advise against using it in 3.5 games.
StruckingFuggle 01-22-08, 12:09 AM	Nevermind that anything not updated or replaced is more or less automatically upgraded from 3.0 to 3.5 unless it doesn't work with extant changes, right?
Pindar 01-22-08, 05:57 AM	Is it not improved overun now?
StruckingFuggle 01-22-08, 09:28 AM	What? Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and Improved Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun) are completely different things. o.o
Orenmir 01-22-08, 10:11 AM	Thanks for all the responses. Let me see if I can get it all straight... Knock-Down was originally a 3.0 feat. During the upgrade to 3.5 it wasn't revamped or rewritten -- it was sort of forgotten about. The fact that it appears in the Deities section of the 3.5 SRD doesn't necessarily make it official because entries are often just copied from 3.0 without much thought. But, entries that are not revamped or rewritten from 3.0 to 3.5 are generally (yet, arguably) considered OK to use in 3.5. Does that sound about right? If so, my next question is... How many people consider it OK to use it in 3.5 as a normal feat anyone can take (meeting the prereqs, of course)?
Frozen Yakman 01-22-08, 10:14 AM	I generally allow material to transition from 3e to 3.5 with the same policy that I give anything outside the PHB. Let me look at it first and say yay or nay. Knockdown is probably a yes.
Pindar 01-22-08, 11:24 AM	What? Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and Improved Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun) are completely different things. o.o Ah, my mistake.
TifRhal 01-22-08, 11:54 AM	knock back is kind of a rewritten and vamped version its in races of stone its a good feat but you have to be large size or have the powerful build class feature like half giants and goliths. If you score a hit well using power attack you may make a free bull rush attempt adding the number you reduced your attack by as a bonus on aopposed str check plus the damage you did on the attack and if you hit with a 2 handed weapon you double that number on the opposed roll and you do not have to move with the target you bull rushed like a normal bull rush. Combined with the dungeon crasher fighter varint from dungeonscape book at 6 lvl if you bull rush someone and they hit a solid object you do 8d6 plus 3 times your str so not a bad set up and if later you want to add stuff you can
Kouk 01-22-08, 03:53 PM	If you are asking for opinions I would definitely not allow Knock-down as it is written. Every hit that deals at least 10 damage lets you make a free trip attempt. When would a character built for melee not do at least 10 damage a hit? Level 1-3 tops. It also supercedes Improved Trip, because why would you make a normal Trip attempt if you can hit the opponent and get one for free? Tripping is not the strongest tactic around, trading damage for a chance to Trip, if you consider many creatures are Large or bigger and have incredible Strength -- but the sheer number of Trip attempts (which also will do full normal damage) would mean that in any fight with a medium size creature, there are going to be several enemies on the floor. Let's not forget the Spiked Chain or Two Weapon Fighting are perfectly valid ways to benefit from Knock-down either. The DM may then have to use more spellcasters or super-huge monsters, or flying creatures, just to get a decent fight (where enemies can remain standing). In a core-only game where a fighter in the group is really the best guy to tank (assuming no CoDzillas), I might allow it because fighters need all they can get, but otherwise I would not. If you use Martial Adepts, then they could initiate a free Trip any time they landed a Strike, or a caster any time they used a Touch spell -- which can do significant damage. Maybe if you limit it to once a round, perhaps as a Swift Action against a single target. Possibly make it a feat that requires a few of levels of Fighter and requiring a melee weapon.
Bopple 01-22-08, 08:40 PM	According to Sword & Fist FAQ, you don't gain extra attack with Improved Trip, when you Knockdowned your foe.
Jaxgaret 01-22-08, 10:48 PM	Unless it's printed elsewhere in 3.5, the SRD doesn't actually give a normal character access to the feat Knock-Down, due to this bit of text at the top of the section in which Knock-Down resides: Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats. Since this is the "official" 3.5 update to the 3e Knock-Down, it's been altered to be a deity-only feat.
Orenmir 01-22-08, 11:23 PM	I remember reading that text and thinking it wasn't written very well. Does it mean these feat are for Deities only? Many of the feats are labeled as "General." Plus, it only says Deities can choose these feats -- it doesn't exclude anybody. Poorly written. Also, in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods book, the list of feats includes many common feats that anyone can take, like Improved Grapple. Why intermix existing feats with new ones and not stipulate which can be used for Deities only. The whole thing confuses me. What does not confuse me is the fact that Knock-Down seems way too powerful for normal 3.5 use. Kouk is right, 10 damage is so common, even at low levels, that it would be in affect all the time. I'd love to be able to use this feat, but my gut is telling me it's too powerful. Maybe it should be edited to 20 damage!
Jaxgaret 01-22-08, 11:28 PM	I remember reading that text and thinking it wasn't written very well. Does it mean these feat are for Deities only? Many of the feats are labeled as "General." Plus, it only says Deities can choose these feats -- it doesn't exclude anybody. Poorly written. Also, in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods book, the list of feats includes many common feats that anyone can take, like Improved Grapple. Why intermix existing feats with new ones and not stipulate which can be used for Deities only. It is poorly worded, but if you go by the literal interpretation - which is that the feat appears nowhere in all of 3.5 other than on that list, and that list states only that deities can obtain those feats - it is a deity-only feat in 3.5. The whole thing confuses me. What does not confuse me is the fact that Knock-Down seems way too powerful for normal 3.5 use. Kouk is right, 10 damage is so common, even at low levels, that it would be in affect all the time. I'd love to be able to use this feat, but my gut is telling me it's too powerful. Maybe it should be edited to 20 damage! It is a very good feat, but even with it, a non-spellcasting melee character will never compare to a spellcaster, so I would have no problem allowing it in my campaigns to non-spellcasters.
Orenmir 01-22-08, 11:44 PM	that list states only that deities can obtain those feats Ah, but it doesn't state "ONLY Deities can use these feats;" it states "Deities can use these feats." Poorly written - afterall, why wouldn't Deities be able to use feats from a book called Deities and Demigods? It is a very good feat, but even with it, a melee character will never compare to a spellcaster, so I would have no problem allowing it in my campaigns. Well, meleers and casters shouldn't really be compared, IMO -- apples and oranges (although, they have great synergy together). Giving overpowered feats to meleers so that they can attempt to attain the power of casters might make them more powerful than other NPCs or monsters that don't have access to the same overpowered feats. I guess you can just give them access too; but, then were talking about CR balance. Game balance can be a delicate thread. Allowing this one overpowered feat isn't going to break the game; but, allowing 2 or 3 or 4.....? I like to snip these things in the bud and set a precedence. But, that's just my style, I guess. To each his own. Cheers.
Jaxgaret 01-23-08, 12:08 AM	Ah, but it doesn't state "ONLY Deities can use these feats;" it states "Deities can use these feats." Poorly written - afterall, why wouldn't Deities be able to use feats from a book called Deities and Demigods? I was talking about the entry in the SRD. I haven't actually read the feat as it is presented in Deities and Demigods. I'll take a look now, maybe that'll enlighten the situation. Alright, here's what it says in Deities and Demigods: In addition to the feats in the Player's Handbook, deities can also obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published in other D&D game products. Because these feats (as well as those in the Player's Handbook) were originally designed for use by player characters, many of them have prerequisites that any deity automatically meets. Nevertheless, those prerequisites are retained in these feat descriptions so that the descriptions will be consistent with the way they were originally published. Still poorly worded, but also sounds deity-only to me.
Kouk 01-23-08, 01:19 AM	Still poorly worded, but also sounds deity-only to me. Actually it seems like quite the contrary, if all the feats were previously published in other books and useful for players. Knock-down in particular also appeared in Sword and Fist as a normal feat, with the same wording as the SRD entry. It was definitely a for-players feat in that book, which was the 3.0 equivalent to Complete Warrior (in fact the majority of feats and classes in Complete Warrior are just ported over from S&F to make a buck). It is telling though, that Knock-down was left out of the 3.5 Complete Warrior, most likely for balance concerns.
Bopple 01-23-08, 01:27 AM	The feats in Deities and Demigods are normal feats, including Knockdown. And Knockdown was in Sword and Fist, too. But then again, I think they got Knockdown out of Complete Warrior, on purpose.
Jaxgaret 01-23-08, 03:52 PM	Actually it seems like quite the contrary, if all the feats were previously published in other books and useful for players. Knock-down in particular also appeared in Sword and Fist as a normal feat, with the same wording as the SRD entry. It was definitely a for-players feat in that book, which was the 3.0 equivalent to Complete Warrior (in fact the majority of feats and classes in Complete Warrior are just ported over from S&F to make a buck). It is telling though, that Knock-down was left out of the 3.5 Complete Warrior, most likely for balance concerns. I suppose I'm not exactly certain how the 3.0->3.5 update policy works, but AFAIK, if something is reprinted in 3.5, that version makes the 3.0 version null and void. Thus, the only official version of Knockdown is in Deities and Demigods. The fact that the feat was reprinted from an earlier 3.0 source doesn't make a difference, according to WotC. For all intents and purposes, the 3.0 version of Knockdown from Sword & Fist doesn't exist. It is the part that says that these feats were "originally designed for use by player characters" makes it sound like the 3.5 Knockdown feat is deity-only unless it is printed elsewhere in the 3.5 library in a fashion that allows it for PCs, which it is not. I'm just going by official WoTC wording here. Like I said, I would have no problem allowing it in my campaigns.
StruckingFuggle 01-23-08, 06:41 PM	It is a very good feat, but even with it, a non-spellcasting melee character will never compare to a spellcaster, so I would have no problem allowing it in my campaigns to non-spellcasters. So what happens if I take Knockdown as a feat, and then later on gain spellcasting ability? :P
ToastedAmphibian 01-23-08, 06:59 PM	So what happens if I take Knockdown as a feat, and then later on gain spellcasting ability? :P Balor Assassins... any more questions? Anywho... Why would this SUPERCEED improved trip? Nebulous FAQ rulings aside, you do 10 dmg, you make a trip attempt. If the trip succeeds, you get a free attack. It basically means that everytime you attack an opponent that is standing up that your capable of knocking down, you get to hit him twice and still knock him down. Ya id say that is rather powerfull. And i thought Knockback was strong...
StruckingFuggle 01-23-08, 07:11 PM	It basically means that everytime you attack an opponent that is standing up that your capable of knocking down, you get to hit him twice and still knock him down. Ya id say that is rather powerfull. And i thought Knockback was strong... ... why not get Knock-Down, Improved Trip, AND Knockback? :) Knock 'em down, and then send 'em flying with the second hit. Just ... style your weapon as an Adamantine Hockey Stick, or something.
Jaxgaret 01-23-08, 09:48 PM	So what happens if I take Knockdown as a feat, and then later on gain spellcasting ability? :P Your character asplode. Really though, I suppose I would allow it for gishes as well. Not a big deal. But then Druids get it, too...
Bopple 01-23-08, 10:44 PM	I suppose I'm not exactly certain how the 3.0->3.5 update policy works, but AFAIK, if something is reprinted in 3.5, that version makes the 3.0 version null and void. Thus, the only official version of Knockdown is in Deities and Demigods. The fact that the feat was reprinted from an earlier 3.0 source doesn't make a difference, according to WotC. For all intents and purposes, the 3.0 version of Knockdown from Sword & Fist doesn't exist. What are you talking about? First of all, Deities and Demigods is 3.0. Secondly, there are about 30 feats which were normal feats, in Deities and Demigods. Are you saying they made the book to erase 30 player feats?
Jaxgaret 01-24-08, 12:52 AM	What are you talking about? First of all, Deities and Demigods is 3.0. Woops. Didn't know that Deities and Demigods was 3.0, not 3.5. That would make Knockdown a 3.0 feat, but perfectly legal to use in 3.5 due to there being no updated 3.5 version of the feat. It's included on this list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) as on of the "not yet revised" feats.
Bopple 01-24-08, 01:14 AM	Yeah, there is no rule change related to it. But there is a certain change of gaming philosophy. The thing is, 3.5 is even more offensive-oriented than 3.0(at least, 3.5 splatbooks are). It was not that easy to deal 10 points of damage, in 3.0 era. Now it's a joke. That is why I am conservative with Knockdown feat. The triggering damage threshold should be higher than 10, imo.
Jaxgaret 01-24-08, 01:58 AM	I realize now where the confusion lay with the designation of Deities & Demigods as 3.0/3.5, and about Knock-Down being a 3.0 or 3.5 feat; Knock-Down IS in the 3.5 SRD, but from a 3.0 source. I call shenanigans on the whole thing.