| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Itachi66605-20-07, 07:36 PM | When using a two handed weapon, you add X3 damage from the power attack. Now I'm using a frenzied beserker (CW). I'm asking two things: 1. Does the bonus of improved power attack stack with leap attack. 2. Is Leap attack broken? |
| Jaxgaret05-20-07, 07:43 PM | The Frenzied Berserker can be "broken", at least in terms of an RP perspective, and some would argue it is broken from a mechanical basis as well. Leap Attack is pretty balanced in and of itself. |
| Itachi66605-20-07, 08:34 PM | My DM feels that doing an additional 30 damage for -10 base damage is broken since one can perform a leap attack almost anywhere. I'm relatively new to the game, how can a class be broken from an Rp prospective?? |
| FatMonkey1305-20-07, 09:22 PM | Here is an example of a Frenzied Berserker requesting to join a party Hello, I am a crazy warrior who goes mad killing everything around, friend or foe, when I get going. It is just a matter of time until i kill you. So can I join your party ... Well we have to go... *Party leaves town to go get a plain old fighter.* The problem is that almost no person would wish to travel with such a dangerous person. |
| runestar05-20-07, 10:44 PM | I think it is broken in the sense that no one really knows how it is supposed to work....:P |
| Jaxgaret05-20-07, 10:46 PM | Hello, I am a crazy warrior who goes mad killing everything around, friend or foe, when I get going. It is just a matter of time until i kill you. So can I join your party :heehee Brilliantly said. Note that there are ways to make a Frenzied Berserker party-friendly. But only if the whole party works together, or the FB is built with safeguards such as Righteous Wrath. |
| Jaxgaret05-20-07, 10:50 PM | My DM feels that doing an additional 30 damage for -10 base damage is broken since one can perform a leap attack almost anywhere. Regular Power Attacking (without Leap Attack) with a 2-handed weapon adds 20 additional damage for a -10 attack penalty, so it's not that huge of a boost. Also, the character must be able to Jump for the feat to work; that means that if you are flying, which becomes common at higher levels, no Leap Attack for you without a surface of some kind to leap off of. Also, difficult terrain can screw with or negate your Jump check. |
| StruckingFuggle05-20-07, 11:40 PM | And, ask the DM which he'd rather have, with your attack bonus X: One attack at X-10 for +30 damage OR One attack at X-5 for +20 damage, and one attack at X-10 for +20 damage. :) Also, don't show him the Shock Trooper tactical feat, or his head would probably explode. |
| Jaxgaret05-21-07, 01:01 AM | Also, don't show him the Shock Trooper tactical feat, or his head would probably explode. I love that feat. Viable melee types? Inconceivable! Casters must pwn all. |
| Muktar05-21-07, 02:29 AM | I heard that shock trooper can increase the adj for power atk. I don't see it anywhere. How do you get 1:6 for power attack that I hear so much? |
| StruckingFuggle05-21-07, 03:06 AM | I love that feat. Viable melee types? Inconceivable! Casters must pwn all. Yeah. Which is why I did his DM a favor and didn't point out the synergy with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, and some way to negate the ac vs. ranged, like potions of / cloaks of displacement, or that one combo of items for the MIC that give you a 50% miss chance vs. ranged if you move ten feat... :D (to the op: Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes have huge synergy with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. Unfortunately, that's rather feat intensive. I'm away from my MIC at the moment, or I'd give you the items, too) |
| Johannixx05-21-07, 03:07 AM | I heard that shock trooper can increase the adj for power atk. I don't see it anywhere. How do you get 1:6 for power attack that I hear so much? Shock Trooper just lets you take the penalty to AC instead of attacks, making your insane power attack that much more likely to hit. As for getting 6:1, that's tough. Frenzied Berserker will eventually net you 4:1, and Leap Attack can make that 5:1. I don't know of anything else that will get you 6:1. |
| runestar05-21-07, 03:31 AM | Favoured power attack? There is a feat in PGTF which nets you a specific favoured enemy.:) Combat brute improves your power attack ratio if you PA'ed for at least 5 the round before. |
| Garonak05-21-07, 03:52 AM | One of the reasons why Leap Attack is that you can only make one attack per round with it. 1d12+30 isn't all that better than 4d12. It's a great combat opener, once you're in there it's not much you can do about it. In addition you have the whole penalty thingy. A human with a normal fullplate gets a total of -12 on jump checks (acp + speed penalty). Unless Leap Attack is the main focus of your combat skill the problem of just making the jump might be a problem. |
| Muktar05-21-07, 04:40 AM | Actually, it is huge. Using your numbers, the expected value of a 1d12+30 is 36. While the expected value of 4d12 is 26. I will take a 10hp advantage everyday. Also the variance on the first is much smaller then the second. Extra damage beats extra dice anyday. |
| Nathreet05-21-07, 04:58 AM | One of the reasons why Leap Attack is that you can only make one attack per round with it. 1d12+30 isn't all that better than 4d12. It's a great combat opener, once you're in there it's not much you can do about it. In addition you have the whole penalty thingy. A human with a normal fullplate gets a total of -12 on jump checks (acp + speed penalty). Unless Leap Attack is the main focus of your combat skill the problem of just making the jump might be a problem. And don't forget that you need a 10' running start first, or the DC doubles. |
| runestar05-21-07, 05:05 AM | One of the reasons why Leap Attack is that you can only make one attack per round with it. 1d12+30 isn't all that better than 4d12. How so? You typically leap attack as an extension of charge, which usually limits you to just 1 attack anyways. Plus, the chances of your iterative attacks hitting may not be all that great anyways. In cases like this, it makes sense to dump all your eggs into 1 basket (such as for overcoming dr, for example). Plus, complete champion has made pounce readily accessible to barbs...another plus (even though the charging bonuses do not apply to your other attacks).:P |
| StruckingFuggle05-21-07, 11:23 AM | How so? You typically leap attack as an extension of charge, which usually limits you to just 1 attack anyways. Plus, the chances of your iterative attacks hitting may not be all that great anyways. Be that as it may for the third or fourth attack, if you can comfortably leap attack for -10, you can also attack at -5, where your second iterative attack is just as likely to hit as the leap attack (which means your first attack is more likely to hit) - if they both hit, you only need ten damage from weapon + strength + misc to be doing the same damage, and anytihng past it deals more damage... ... or maybe I'm just crazy? |
| jaelis05-21-07, 12:49 PM | I think it is broken in the sense that no one really knows how it is supposed to work....:P Indeed. Actually, it is huge. Using your numbers, the expected value of a 1d12+30 is 36. While the expected value of 4d12 is 26. I will take a 10hp advantage everyday. Also the variance on the first is much smaller then the second. Extra damage beats extra dice anyday. But you have to add all your other bonuses too. It might easily be 1d12+20 on a normal attack (with no PA at all), making it 4d12+80 vs 1d12+50. I think a leap attack is almost never as good as landing all your hits on a full attack, but it's great when you need to charge anyway. (Or when you have some serious DR to overcome.) |
| RobbyPants05-21-07, 12:58 PM | I think it is broken in the sense that no one really knows how it is supposed to work....:P Yeah, that stupid "+100%" wording confuses a lot of people. I don't know why they didn't word it like they did in Momentum Swing from Combat Brute. As was already noted, this is really only a combat opener. It can be done more than once per combat, but you have to keep swithing targets (unless your current target is stupid enough to keep backing away :P). Victim: Ow! I just got pwned for 42 damage! I'd better back up 30 feet... Victim: *backs up 30 feet* Leap Attacker: *Attack of opportunity* Victim: Ow! That hurt! Leap Attacker: *charges and leaps* Victim: No!!! Not again!!! Why me?!? |
| utilitarian05-21-07, 03:10 PM | Leap Attack works fine provided you understand how stacked multipliers work. Yes, Frenzied Berzerker can be a pretty mean PrC but it's not one without its downsides as anyone will tell you. Although if you ever need a surefire way to control your frenzing berzerker... just note: You can't used Dex based skills while in Frenzy. Period. It doesn't have exceptions like Rage. IE: No balance. "RAR, I AM A FRENZIED BERZERKER! HAVING RUN OUT OF ENEMIES I WILL NOW SLAY MY ALLIES!" *Grease* *Unable to make balance check* *SLIP* "RRAAARRRRGGGGG!" *attempts to get up* *SLIP* "RRAARRARARRRGGGG!!!" ect until Frenzy wears off. |
| drasticale05-21-07, 03:21 PM | What about Powerful Charge, and Jump Kick, and Leap Attack? Would make a mean high level monk, IMHO. |
| Itachi66605-21-07, 03:39 PM | I use Mithral BP so I have no Armor check penalty, so rage only enhances my jump check. As I read it in complete warrior I thought it said Leap attack was Double Damage and Triple damage of a normal power attack, so multipliers were were multiplied together, but that would be way too strong, especially with Supreme power attack. -20 base= +180, and with shock trooper, it becomes unfair. |
| Harbin_Dunewalker05-21-07, 03:51 PM | Notes on Leap Attack and the Supreme Power Attack class ability of the Frenzied Berserker: In errata, Leap Attack is stated to add "+100%" to your power attack damage bonus with a two-handed weapon. Or, in other words, it actually gives you a 4:1 return, not a 3:1 return. Supreme Power Attack is phrased the exact same way- it simply applies all the time, not just on a leaping charge. As such, it also gives you a 4:1 return on Power Attack. When applied together, I would say that you add +200%, or in other words, a 6:1 Power Attack damage return. |
| RobbyPants05-21-07, 03:58 PM | I use Mithral BP so I have no Armor check penalty, so rage only enhances my jump check. As I read it in complete warrior I thought it said Leap attack was Double Damage and Triple damage of a normal power attack, so multipliers were were multiplied together, but that would be way too strong, especially with Supreme power attack. -20 base= +180, and with shock trooper, it becomes unfair. You'd still have a -1 ACP with Mithirl breat plate. It starts at a base of -4, and is reduced by 3 for the mithril. Minor detail ;) Notes on Leap Attack and the Supreme Power Attack class ability of the Frenzied Berserker: In errata, Leap Attack is stated to add "+100%" to your power attack damage bonus with a two-handed weapon. Or, in other words, it actually gives you a 4:1 return, not a 3:1 return. Supreme Power Attack is phrased the exact same way- it simply applies all the time, not just on a leaping charge. As such, it also gives you a 4:1 return on Power Attack. When applied together, I would say that you add +200%, or in other words, a 6:1 Power Attack damage return. It blows me away that they worded it that way. Normally, they handle everything with the "double" terminology. The idea being that it falls under the "double-a-double-is-a-tripple" rule. The actual formula is [new multiplier = (multiplier 1 + multiplier 2) - 1] |
| jaelis05-21-07, 04:16 PM | In errata, Leap Attack is stated to add "+100%" to your power attack damage bonus with a two-handed weapon. Or, in other words, it actually gives you a 4:1 return, not a 3:1 return. Note that the errata technically applies only to the sentence about the "normal" benefit. The wording of the next sentence, for use with 2H weapons, is unchanged. Make what you will of that. |
| Frugal05-21-07, 11:44 PM | Yeah, it all depends on how you read "normal damage bonus". 1:1 is normal and everything else is different? Then it's +1 for every -1, or 3:1 for 2-hander 2:1 is normal for a 2-hander? Then it's 4:1. 6:1 with supreme power attack. 4:1 is normal for a 2-hander with Supreme Power Attack? Then it's 8:1. Now from the examples in the CW errata it seems to suggest that 2:1 is normal for a 2-hander is the way to apply it and since both are listed as +100% then it's not the standard multiplying rules it's just +100% +100% for +200% or 6:1. |
| Itachi66605-21-07, 11:49 PM | You'd still have a -1 ACP with Mithirl breat plate. It starts at a base of -4, and is reduced by 3 for the mithril. what about the masterwork quality of the armor, isn't that in addition to mithral? |
| theotherdraxen05-22-07, 12:00 AM | Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Spirited Charge grants a 12:1 return for PA, all of which is applied to your AC. It's feat intensive (essentially taking all the feats of your average Barbarian), but well worth it. As for brokenness...well, it's a charge, which is ridiculously easy to mess up (difficult terrain, readied actions to tumble out of the way, ect.). Plus, that uber power requires riding on a non-flying mount that's sturdy enough to survive combat. Your 20th level charger can deal +240 power attack damage...at the same time the casters are pulling out Otto's Irrisitable Dance, Force Cage, and other hard to disrupt methods that leave the charger feeling weak. Charging is nice, but it works about as often as the DM lets it. :( |
| Muktar05-22-07, 03:59 AM | But you have to add all your other bonuses too. It might easily be 1d12+20 on a normal attack (with no PA at all), making it 4d12+80 vs 1d12+50. I think a leap attack is almost never as good as landing all your hits on a full attack, but it's great when you need to charge anyway. (Or when you have some serious DR to overcome.) You did not specify anything else in the scenario. I only had the info that was given to me. They made the assertion that at full attack it would only be 4d12 not 4d20+80 |
| Garonak05-22-07, 04:27 AM | what about the masterwork quality of the armor, isn't that in addition to mithral? No, that's included, not in addition. Mithral BP: -1, Mithral Fullplate: -3. Just ad the Nimble enchantment from Magic Item Compendium. Lowers acp with 2 and raises max dex by 1. Costs +1. |
| Frugal05-22-07, 08:01 AM | Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Spirited Charge grants a 12:1 return for PA, all of which is applied to your AC. It's feat intensive (essentially taking all the feats of your average Barbarian), but well worth it. I doubt that actually works, leap attack requires you to make a jump, spirited charge requires that you be mounted, how do you combine the 2? I'm away from my books but I don't think leap attack allows for you to get the benefit if your mount jumps. |
| jaelis05-22-07, 09:17 AM | I doubt that actually works, leap attack requires you to make a jump, spirited charge requires that you be mounted, how do you combine the 2? I'm away from my books but I don't think leap attack allows for you to get the benefit if your mount jumps. I believe that Races of the Wild has some rules on centaurs that would let them get away with it. |
| Nezkrul05-22-07, 09:39 AM | Frenzied Berserker leap attacking with a twohander would deal 4:1 with power attack, tripled because of the feat. The errata does not change the line about 2 handed weapons. That means 12:1 effectively. Now put valorous on his weapon... >.< |
| RobbyPants05-23-07, 11:21 AM | Frenzied Berserker leap attacking with a twohander would deal 4:1 with power attack, tripled because of the feat. The errata does not change the line about 2 handed weapons. That means 12:1 effectively. Now put valorous on his weapon... >.< Well, I guess it depends on if it is truely "trippled". Remember the whole "double-a-double-is-a-tripple" rule. The actual formula is [new multiplier = (multiplier1 + multiplier2) - 1]. So, if you start with a x4, and tripple it (x3), then you end up with ((4 + 3) - 1) = 6. It would be x6. |
| TheSacredSquirrel05-23-07, 11:37 AM | Here is the simple answer. supreme power attack lets you trade 1 attack bonus for 4 damage(with a two-handed weapon) leap attack then triples the bonus damage from power attack. 4x3=12 damage per point of bab. with shock trooper you take no attack penalty and squish things. - do not get over-think this, supreme power attack changes the base value then leap attack triples it there is no multiple of a multiple or percentages to worry about. |
| Frugal05-23-07, 12:06 PM | Here is the simple answer. supreme power attack lets you trade 1 attack bonus for 4 damage(with a two-handed weapon) leap attack then triples the bonus damage from power attack. 4x3=12 damage per point of bab. with shock trooper you take no attack penalty and squish things. - do not get over-think this, supreme power attack changes the base value then leap attack triples it there is no multiple of a multiple or percentages to worry about. Except that the errata changes leap attack to +100% "normal" so it's 8:1. |
| RobbyPants05-23-07, 02:48 PM | Here is the simple answer. supreme power attack lets you trade 1 attack bonus for 4 damage(with a two-handed weapon) leap attack then triples the bonus damage from power attack. 4x3=12 damage per point of bab. with shock trooper you take no attack penalty and squish things. - do not get over-think this, supreme power attack changes the base value then leap attack triples it there is no multiple of a multiple or percentages to worry about. Well, even if you consider the 4:1 to be the new base, then still, under the doubling formula you would end up with x6. It's not as simple as 4x3 = 12. It is correctly figured as (4 + 3) - 1 = 6. Per the SRD Basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm): Multiplying Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). (Emphasis mine in bold) |
| GhostStepper05-23-07, 03:02 PM | Well, even if you consider the 4:1 to be the new base, then still, under the doubling formula you would end up with x6. It's not as simple as 4x3 = 12. It is correctly figured as (4 + 3) - 1 = 6. That would make sense if we were talking about multipliers, but that is not the case here. As per the errata, Supreme Power Attack adds +100% to your normal PA damage, changing the ratio to 4:1 while THF. Leap Attack, as per the errata, adds +100% to your normal PA damage. The only real issue is what constitutes "normal PA damage". If you think the normal damage is what it is before SPA then you add +100% from SPA and +100% from Leap Attack and end up with a 6:1 ratio. If you think that the 4:1 you get after applying SPA is the "normal" power attack damage then you add the +100% to this from Leap Attack and wind up with an 8:1 ratio. So basically you are eithe getting a 6:1 ratio or a 8:1 ratio, depending on what you think "normal" PA damage is. |
| RobbyPants05-23-07, 03:18 PM | Oh, certainly. I understand the whole delema of "normal PA damage" and the +100% issue. That's my biggest problem with the wording of the feat. My response was mainly to TheSacredSquirrel, pointing out that applying a tripple to a quadrupple is not as simple as straight forward multiplication. |
| Frugal05-23-07, 03:20 PM | I'd forgotten about the errata to Supreme Power Attack, it's got the same +100% language and explicitly states 4:1 with 2-handed so that clears up that 2:1 is "normal" and since leap attack is also +100% normal then I'd say it's 6:1. |
| RobbyPants05-23-07, 03:27 PM | I'd forgotten about the errata to Supreme Power Attack, it's got the same +100% language and explicitly states 4:1 with 2-handed so that clears up that 2:1 is "normal" and since leap attack is also +100% normal then I'd say it's 6:1. Makes sense to me! :) |
| tahngarth4005-23-07, 05:01 PM | Ok so it sounds like its 6:1, but does anyone have a link to a sage advice or something like that to end all this math squabbling, I'm not smart enough for this thread anymore and its about BARBARIANS! :( Frenzied Berserker can be a really fun class to play and a very powerful one, it just doesn't fit in to very many adventuring situations, since you're a liability to the people around you. Just for funs sake though I've put out the offer in my game that if anyone wants to play a Frenzied Berserker I'll play the Half-Elf bard w/substitution levels to be his soothing voice that calms him. |
| Frugal05-23-07, 05:26 PM | Ok so it sounds like its 6:1, but does anyone have a link to a sage advice or something like that to end all this math squabbling, I'm not smart enough for this thread anymore and its about BARBARIANS! :( The errata clears it up pretty well. The leap attack one is odd in the +100% wording but the errata for Supreme Power Attack uses the same +100% language and then supplies and example so it clears up that 2:1 from a 2-hander is what's considered "normal" (or 1:1 from a 1-hander). |
| Minmaximus06-05-07, 03:42 PM | But the real question is can you use pounce and leap attack to send your DM off the AA wagon? |
| Tequila_Sunrise06-05-07, 08:25 PM | 2. Is Leap attack broken? No it's not broken, just silly. I really don't know what the designers were thinking of when they came up with Leap Attack. Not even bothering with optimization issues, how exactly does one gain more power from leaping at a foe than by charging a foe? You're not getting 'higher ground' because you have to land adjacent to your foe, not over or atop him. If anything, leaping at a foe would lessen your attack power since you will slow down a bit by the end of your leap. |
| Qwicksilver06-05-07, 08:39 PM | No it's not broken, just silly. I really don't know what the designers were thinking of when they came up with Leap Attack. Not even bothering with optimization issues, how exactly does one gain more power from leaping at a foe than by charging a foe? You're not getting 'higher ground' because you have to land adjacent to your foe, not over or atop him. If anything, leaping at a foe would lessen your attack power since you will slow down a bit by the end of your leap. Because it's cool and cinematic, it's all like, jump woosh woosh.... I'm guessing it's a feat that wants to take advantage of the momentum you would gain from charging. Making a requirement to jump just makes it look so cool:D The party walks along the dirt road in the middle of the forest.... The party's frenzied berserker stubs his toe.... The party cringes.... Traveling with frenzied berserker's is like traveling with some kind of nuclear bomb, sure you can direct it at your enemies, but every once in a while.... |
| Jeriaus06-05-07, 10:24 PM | You have to jump 10ft horizontaly to gain the effects, so its worthless in close combat. Also the origanal text said it double bonus damage for 1-h wep and tripled it for 2-h wep. That would be 2:1 1-h and 4:1 2-h. The errata just ckerified this. It bested used with Combat brute and anything to gain Pounce to bounce the target around while comnstantly PA+LA, add in Shick Trooper and you have gravy. Tack on Shape Soulmeld(Mauling Guantlets) and you should never fail to push bak your foe for QUITE some distance. |
| GAMBLE_d1306-06-07, 01:36 AM | Here is an example of a Frenzied Berserker requesting to join a party *Party leaves town to go get a plain old fighter.* The problem is that almost no person would wish to travel with such a dangerous person. That is COMPLETELY false... Most of the Greatest heroes of European Mythology were frenzied berserkers. One very famous and much loved example is Chuculainne. Another example of an entire traditon of Frenzied Bersekers, were the Norse Berserks, who often mowed into their own side (tho curiously never into their fellow Berserks). Even Achilles could be seen as a Frenzied Bersekerer, tho perhaps in this case a Warblade/Barbarian would be better suited. So if one were to trully get into the mindset of a fighter or babrbarian character, it would be them asking the Famous Frenzied Berserker if they could join him. All this said, I've NEVER encountered a PC death resulting from a FB failing a save and cutting his fellows to bits, I have however seen FB's fail saves and try to rend their fellows to pieces... and in all my experience it has been VERY GOOD Role Playing situations. |
| AAB06-06-07, 01:54 AM | i find myself wondering where you are getting this information.... |
| Muktar06-06-07, 03:26 AM | i find myself wondering where you are getting this information.... I am curious too . . .Achilles was a weapon master/fighter. |
| Frugal06-06-07, 08:06 AM | i find myself wondering where you are getting this information.... My guess is he's taking the term "berserker" from mythology and then applying it to the class with the same name, without really looking too heavily into what the legends represented vs. what the class' mechanics represent. Now regardless of the basis in mythology, the class is a bad class for an RPG. The reason for this is that it attempts to balance its mechanics with something that punishes the rest of the party. As for not harming the party too much, I see a ton of posts on the boards about people finding ways to mitigate failing a save, like switching to non-lethal damage. Personally, I think this goes against the whole flavour of the class, if I ever allowed an FB in my campaign (and that's a huge if) I certainly wouldn't allow the character to play it that way, the whole point is that he gets worked up into a frenzy and can't control himself so if he started lashing out against the party I'd be expecting to see him using the same full power attack, shock trooper leap attacking that he was doing against the bad guys. |
| AllisterH06-06-07, 09:14 AM | I got to agree. The FB is not really meant for players as the team nature is not conducive with the class (and pretty much all the "get around the drawbacks" don't even work if you read the RAI). Similarly, the Ur-Priest isn't really intended for a team environment either. I can see both being good choices if you ever run a solo campaign (which I've done a few times) but the role-playing drawbacks to the class will affect a party to such a degree that the other players are actually paying the penalty. As for Leap Attack itself, even without the Feat, FB is the damage king and I wouldn't consider it balanced. I think the feat itself is fine (how does a non-FB barbarian do?) but the prestige class is the problem. |
| RobbyPants06-06-07, 11:13 AM | All this said, I've NEVER encountered a PC death resulting from a FB failing a save and cutting his fellows to bits, I have however seen FB's fail saves and try to rend their fellows to pieces... and in all my experience it has been VERY GOOD Role Playing situations. Well, he doesn't have to kill a PC for them to get mad that he took a swing at them. I understand that HP are an abstraction, and taking X damage when you have more than X HP won't kill you, but still, a sword swing hurts!!! That, and it begs the question: can I trust this guy? These concerns come more from an RP standpoint, and less form a metagame standpoint of "I can control this guy with his low Will save." I've noticed a lot of (my) players tend to take lethal damage lightly. IRL, most people are hesitant to punch someone in a verbal argument, let along break their hip with some nunchucks over an insult (stupid 2E crit tables :P)! |
| mobius270206-07-07, 04:26 AM | I'd like to throw some more fuel on the fire here... heh heh heh Leap Attack & Frenzied Berserker Supreme Power Attack boils down to either 6:1 or 8:1, depending on how the "+100%" wording is interpreted. Let's assume 6:1 just to move on to the next part. What about adding in the Combat Brute Momentum Swing x3 language? Assume for the sake of this that one performs the following sequence: Round 1: Shock Trooper Leap Attack charge while frenzied, 6:1 AC to damage trade. Round 2: Followed up with a second charge taking advantage of Momentum Swing and its x3 language. The feat specifically says on a couple of occassions that the attack penalty is tripled. So now we have a very fuzzy set of circumstances. First, you have the "+100%" language from Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker, making it not a multiplier. Then you add to that the multiplier language from Momentum Swing, but seemingly only applying to attack penalty. My interpretation? Power Attack for a full 20. Using Shock Trooper, put 10 of that on to AC penalty, leaving 10 for attack penalty. The full 20 follows the 6:1 ratio (2:1 "normal" PA +100% base (leap attack) +100% base (frenzied berserker). Then you get x3 Attack penalty, using Momentum Swing. For a total of 150 bonus damage. Of course, I am sure I am way off here... |
| Frugal06-07-07, 09:10 AM | Leap Attack & Frenzied Berserker Supreme Power Attack boils down to either 6:1 or 8:1, depending on how the "+100%" wording is interpreted. Let's assume 6:1 just to move on to the next part. The errata for CW uses the +100% language but then follows up with an example, it's safe to assume that Leap Attack works the same way so it should be 6:1. My interpretation? Power Attack for a full 20. Using Shock Trooper, put 10 of that on to AC penalty, leaving 10 for attack penalty. The full 20 follows the 6:1 ratio (2:1 "normal" PA +100% base (leap attack) +100% base (frenzied berserker). Then you get x3 Attack penalty, using Momentum Swing. For a total of 150 bonus damage. Of course, I am sure I am way off here... I'm not sure where you're getting 150 bonus damage from. If we're assuming a 2nd leap attack then we have 6:1 from leap attack then there's the x3 issue. But, that's explicitly stated as x3 the penalty taken so I'd apply it first for convenience so then we get +3 for Combat Brute, +2 for Leap Attack (+100%) and +2 for Supreme Power Attack (+100%) for a total of 7:1 or 140 bonus damage. Oh wait, I think you're saying 6:1 from PA = 120 bonus and you only took -10 to attack penalty, which is multiplied by 3 for 30 more damage = 150, I don't think that's right. I think you look at the total amount you subtracted, Shock Trooper allows you to apply that to AC instead of attack penalty but it was still applied into PA, so I'd say it counts. The other mistake you're making is counting the normal benefit from PA twice, you'll notice that the x3 language from Combat Brute replaces the normal benefit from PA (shows doing +18 damage from -6 penalty), that's why I did it first and then did the +100% from Supreme PA and Leap Attack after. |
| mobius270206-07-07, 03:14 PM | I am going to break this down to excruciating detail so one may tell me where I'm wrong. I'm going through this, and I hope for assistance, because I see this combo coming up with a player of mine. I have no idea how he thinks to do the multipliers, but I'd like a definitive answer. So the Power Attack/Leap Attack combo with a 2-Handed weapon works out to a 6:1 tradeoff (but actually, it could be 5:1 if you replace only the second sentence of Leap Attack feat with the errata'd sentence). The key term I'm going to highlight: For 1 point of attack penalty, the "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 For 1 point of attack penalty: Frenzied Berserker, no leaping or combat bruting... "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100%) Add in Leap Attack, no Combat Brute: 1) Add in Leap Attack with Two-Handed Weapon, use Leap Attack errata: "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Leap Attack = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Total: +6 damage -OR- 2) Add in Leap Attack using original third sentence from feat, since errata only replaces second sentence: "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Leap Attack = x3, for +3 damage bonus, replacing "Normal" power attack. Total: +5 damage Add in Combat Brute, no Leap Attack: "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Combat Brute = x3, for +3 damage bonus, replacing "Normal" power attack. Total: +5 damage Now, merge Combat Brute, Leap Attack, and Supreme Power Attack: 1) Add in Leap Attack with Two-Handed Weapon, use Leap Attack errata: "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Leap Attack = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Combat Brute = x3, for +3 damage bonus, replacing "Normal" power attack. Total: +7 damage 2) Add in Leap Attack using original third sentence from feat, since errata only replaces second sentence: "Normal" Power attack damage bonus = 2 Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave = +2 damage bonus (+100% "Normal") Leap Attack = x3, for +3 damage bonus, replacing "Normal" power attack. Combat Brute = x2, for +2 damage bonus, replacing "Normal" power attack. Note: Combat Brute multiplier drops to x2 due to the "addition of multipliers" method used in DnD math i.e. when you have a triple and a triple, the second triple turns into a double. Total: +7 damage If I went wrong somewhere in my thinking, please let me know. |
| GAMBLE_d1306-08-07, 04:02 AM | Because I couldn't be arsed riffling through the sagas, and epics... I'm going to let Wikipedia do the talking for me... Regarding Cuchulain as a Frenzied Berserker: Cúchulainn narratives Combat prowess Cúchulainn was almost undefeatable in battle due to his spear named the Gáe Bulg (which sang for the blood of its enemies) and his warrior frenzy, comparable to that of the Norse berserkers. It is described in Thomas Kinsella's translation of The Táin this way: The Warp-Spasm overtook him: it seemed each hair was hammered into his head, so sharply they shot upright. You would swear a fire-speck tipped each hair. He squeezed one eye narrower than the eye of a needle; he opened the other wider than the mouth of a goblet. He bared his jaws to the ear; he peeled back his lips to the eye-teeth till his gullet showed. The hero-halo rose up from the crown of his head. —Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin This frenzy caused him to turn about in his skin; his sinews bulged with knots the size of a baby's head; a poisonous black mist rose above his head; and he snapped his jaw shut with enough force to kill a lion, showering sparks. In this fearsome state he could not tell friend from foe, killing in front and behind alike. Regarding Achilles: The first two lines of the Iliad read: μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί' Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε' ἔθηκεν, Rage—sing, goddess, the rage of Achilles, the son of Peleus, the destructive rage that brought countless griefs upon the Achaeans... Achilles is the only mortal to experience consuming rage (menis). His anger is at some times wavering, at other times absolute. The humanization of Achilles by the events of the war is an important theme of the narrative. AND: Enraged over the death of Patroclus, Achilles ended his refusal to fight and took the field killing many men in his rage but always seeking out Hector. Achilles even got in a fight with the river god Scamander who became angry that Achilles was choking his waters with all the men he killed. The god tried to drown Achilles but was stopped by Hera and Hephaestus. Zeus himself took note of Achilles' rage and sent the gods to restrain him so that he would not go on to sack Troy itself, seeming to show that the unhindered rage of Achilles could defy fate itself as Troy was not meant to be destroyed yet. Regarding Norse Berserkers, Wikipedia is upsettingly sparse... and I would be forced to delve into the Sagas in order to show a connection between the Norse Berserker and the Frenzied Berserker. A few similarities however, is the fact that FB's will kill a freind and so will a NB (I can not recall the the Berserker's name, but he slew his son's freind for no reason). Another good example is the Subdual damage that FB's take each round, and the Fact that after a Norse Berserker stops raging the slump into a coma-like state that can last days... (note you heal 24 Subdual damage a day, if a FB's subdual damage reaches his HP total he will sleep for days, unless healed). Now as far as letting a PC play a FB, I see no reason why not to, if the FB goes nuts and and tries to attack the party, the party should do one of two things, Total Defense whilst roleplaying their characters trying to calm their over-excitable friend, or run and hide. A Few tips never stand too close to a FB, and never **** him off. If you in use Total Defense and your move action to evade the FB, then you face a maximum of one attack a round, since the FB will be Power Attacking to the full, and if built well will rarely fail a Will Save DC 20, the max most PC's will have to endure, is one attack from a ****** off FB, which will most likely miss (try and put the Tank nearest the FB) another option is to Fight defensevily whilst using Combat Epertise and trying to restrain the FB with grapples, or even engagin the FB and dealing massive amounts of Subdual damage on top of the Subdual damage he already takes. A good thing to do, is to have another party member carry the FB's weapon for him, then if he is "coincidentaly" the target of a random enemy arrow, he will only have his fists to attack the Party with. Furthermore, any reasonable DM, would allow the FB to charge off in the direction of the pero that shot the arrow, or to spend one round attacking the Trap the hurt him... etc. etc. My point is they are easily managed in play, and a hoot to play. I would rather adventurer with five FB's than a stuck up Mage that can blow me away and is quick to drop 'suble' hints that he is 'superior'. |
| allenchan06-08-07, 04:44 AM | The FB in my party didnt want Frenzy (since, as we can see, its not the best ability of the class), so every morning he took a walk alone from everyone else and punched himself a few times in the face until he used up the daily uses of Frenzy, then came back and joined the group. :D |
| RobbyPants06-08-07, 11:21 AM | The FB in my party didnt want Frenzy (since, as we can see, its not the best ability of the class), so every morning he took a walk alone from everyone else and punched himself a few times in the face until he used up the daily uses of Frenzy, then came back and joined the group. :D LOL :rofl: Metagame for the win, huh? :P |
| Muktar06-08-07, 04:02 PM | There are craploads of ways to have a FB's will save go up. Frenzy is one of the best abilities that a FB has. +10 str eventually?(might be +8 but don't have book in front of me). That literally translates in terms of PA, +35 dmg on the charge with a leap attack. And the person better hope he doesn't crit. |
| Jaxgaret08-08-07, 12:40 PM | The FB in my party didnt want Frenzy (since, as we can see, its not the best ability of the class), so every morning he took a walk alone from everyone else and punched himself a few times in the face until he used up the daily uses of Frenzy, then came back and joined the group. :D LOL :rofl: Metagame for the win, huh? :P Ah, thread resurrection. I'm not sure that this is entirely metagaming - the FB knows that he has deep-seated emotional problems (;)). He is a normal person most of the time, when he is not in a killing Frenzy. Perhaps, in an effort to keep from killing the people he calls friend, he expends his rage in such a self-destructive manner to keep from harming them. |
| Frugal08-08-07, 12:42 PM | Ah, thread resurrection. I'm not sure that this is entirely metagaming - the FB knows that he has deep-seated emotional problems (;)). He is a normal person most of the time, when he is not in a killing Frenzy. Perhaps, in an effort to keep from killing the people he calls friend, he expends his rage in such a self-destructive manner to keep from harming them. Yes, but the metagaming aspect is in going, "okay, you've gotten me angry, now let's let me calm down and do that 2 more times because then I'll be good". |
| Jaxgaret08-08-07, 12:52 PM | Yes, but the metagaming aspect is in going, "okay, you've gotten me angry, now let's let me calm down and do that 2 more times because then I'll be good". I understand that the metagaming is in the x/day part of it. But here is the counter to that - the FB goes into the woods and works out his rage until he can't rage no more, he is exhausted. That would work out to the same as expending all of his Frenzies for the day. Once he is exhausted (tries to activate his Frenzy ability but can't, because there are no more uses), he is done with his self-meditation/destruction and is good to come back to the party. |
| Aubri08-08-07, 01:32 PM | Regarding Norse Berserkers, Wikipedia is upsettingly sparse... and I would be forced to delve into the Sagas in order to show a connection between the Norse Berserker and the Frenzied Berserker. They weren't quite as bad as modern terminology would have you think. When it comes right down to it, they were just badasses who walked around the frozen norse, er, north without shirts ("sark" being the word for shirts or armor, thus they were "bare sark"). For example, in the story of Rolf and the Viking Bow (written down by, who else, Snorri Sturluson*) the 'berserkers' who show up are just ordinary viking raiders except for the leader having a magic spell that makes him invulnerable to iron. (Rolf kills him by fashioning a silver arrowhead.) In any case, long story short, bare sarks were known for their ferocity in battle (naturally) so someone who fought in a particularly wild way would be compared to them, being said to be "berserk". Eventually the word came to connote someone who was unable to tell friend from foe, and that got retroactively applied to the bare sarks. * Snorri wrote down most of the norse legends that we know of today around 1200. In the process, he frequently inserted a wise old character named "Snorri the Priest" who would advise the protagonist. It was sorta like Stan Lee's walk-on in every Marvel movie. |