Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kanati8869 10-22-07, 12:11 PM	I have a paladin that's level 17. He has taken a number of feats and has a buffed damage potential of 684 points or so he says. I think he's insane but I want to get the general consensus so that I can refer to others' opinions as well. Lance Damage = 1d6 STR and Bonus Damage = 12 max dmg Power Attack (base attack x2 for double handed weapon) = 34 max damage I don't know how he comes to 34 at this point first off... Spirited Charge (When using a charge attack, deals double damage or triple damage with Lance) = 156 max damage Critical = 468 max damage And that's without being buffed. He comes to 684 points max damage with Bulls Strength, Prayer and Greater Magical Weapon. And as an added bonus, he states the following: "Also, against Evil Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Evil creatures I get +4d6. This damage would be added before Spirited Charge and before a possible Critical." Ok. I'm all for doing a lot of damage at higher levels, but that just seems like he's smoking crack to me. That's a potential 708 points of damage he thinks he's going to get with one charge using a lance. Can someone help me out here? My player has gone insane, or I have. :)
Mindolin 10-22-07, 12:22 PM	He forgets one thing: the Holy Axiomatic lance he is using has the extra dice added AFTER the critical, it is not multiplied by critical. Also, I believe he needs to reread the rules, because I believe that Power Attack allows up to a -5 from Base Attack. If he has feats to go to his entire base attack, then it works, as he takes away 17 to get +34 to damage. It's just that he won't be hitting a lot. Also, damage multipliers stack, so it's actually going to be 260 max damage, not counting the buffing, if I did my math right. I might not have, math is my weak point.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-22-07, 12:27 PM	He forgets one thing: the Holy Axiomatic lance he is using has the extra dice added AFTER the critical, it is not multiplied by critical. Also, I believe he needs to reread the rules, because I believe that Power Attack allows up to a -5 from Base Attack. If he has feats to go to his entire base attack, then it works, as he takes away 17 to get +34 to damage. It's just that he won't be hitting a lot. Also, damage multipliers stack, so it's actually going to be 260 max damage, not counting the buffing, if I did my math right. I might not have, math is my weak point. The part about a 5 point cap on PA is a lie. That's only NWN. But multipliers don't work like the OP believes either.
jaelis 10-22-07, 12:40 PM	I have a paladin that's level 17. He has taken a number of feats and has a buffed damage potential of 684 points or so he says. I think he's insane but I want to get the general consensus so that I can refer to others' opinions as well. Lance Damage = 1d6 STR and Bonus Damage = 12 max dmg So on a 'normal' hit, his max damage is 18. Power Attack (base attack x2 for double handed weapon) = 34 max damage I don't know how he comes to 34 at this point first off... You can take a penalty of up to your BAB (here -17), and add double that to your damage (for a 2H weapon). So it is +34, but he won't be hitting much. That's 52 damage net. Spirited Charge (When using a charge attack, deals double damage or triple damage with Lance) = 156 max damage Yep, 52x3 = 156. Critical = 468 max damage When stacking multiplier, you don't just multiply again, you add up the extra damage. He had x3 from spirited charge (extra damage = x2 base), and x3 from a crit (extra damage = 2x base), for a total of 5x (base + 2x base + 2x base), or 260 points. "Also, against Evil Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Evil creatures I get +4d6. This damage would be added before Spirited Charge and before a possible Critical." All that is added in after the multipliers are done. Ok. I'm all for doing a lot of damage at higher levels, but that just seems like he's smoking crack to me. That's a potential 708 points of damage he thinks he's going to get with one charge using a lance. So he did it wrong, but it doesn't much matters. He'll hardly hit anything with a -17 power attack, much less crit it.
Kanati8869 10-22-07, 12:42 PM	Yeah, here's the quick test I did... Assuming a +16 to hit. 1d6 damage + STR + magic bonus (12) + 16 to damage for power attack (taking to-hit to zero). Possible 34 points damage. Spirited Charge (assuming all charge requirements are met) +2 to hit at that point. x3 damage = 34 x 3 = Possible 102 points damage Critical hit (possibility) = 3 x 102 points damage = 306 points maximum Single attack only with charge, and you are then in melee range and cannot do it again unless you withdraw from combat (or have killed the mob in combat). This is unbuffed damage... I haven't taken into account buffed yet. But it seems to me that once you take the to-hit to zero (+2 with charge), that it then becomes quite difficult to hit a 20+ AC creature. I think I've found his broken logic. But 306 points of potential damage is still insanely large isn't it? We haven't even hit epic levels yet and he's able to potentially take out MASSIVE creatures by one-hitting them.
Prub 10-22-07, 12:47 PM	ok I take it he is small as lance damage is 1d8 for medium. spirited charge allows a mounted charge to do 3x damage with lance. now I assume since he is mounted he is using lance 1 handed so he only gets his str bonus and not 1.5. puting his str at the 22-23 range. I would argue if he is tring to use it 2 handed that he gets extra dmg because mounted you are just holding it and aiming letting the mount supply the strength to do the dmg. now power atk I would again say that since you are not providing the POWER for the charge or to deal the damage then you do not get 2x your bab. so here we are dropped down to 17+12 so at 29 instead of 46. Now spirited charge. deals 3x for lance (your math is wrong somewhere here as 3 * 46 is 138 not 156) but his base dmg after power atk is now 29 and with charge its 87. Crit. is 261. . bulls str would raise your dmg to 31 after PA 93 after SC and 279 after crit. prayer adds 1 to your damage so you are looking at 32 96 and 288 respectivly Greater magic weapon he would only get +3 due to his pally lvl (his spell casting levels dont start till he is lvl 4 so he gets 3 bonuses to it) making his dmg 35 105 and 315 respectivly. also as for the extra dmg of xd6 against evil/chaotic creatures irc you can not double those when critting nor would it count when charging. I assume it is some spell /feat/ special ability that I do not know of but still those damages would not count in use of a charge or critical. giving him a cap of 315+24 for a toal of 339 possible damage if he maxed on everything. (thats a lot of rolls to get max on tho LOL) of course I may be wrong on my assumptions of using a lance 2 handed while charging as I do not see how it could possibly add anymore to the damage as you are not providing the umf to the attack the rushing steed is.
Prub 10-22-07, 12:52 PM	ops forgot the whole not stacking of multipliers, also my math was wrong I used 17 instead of 18 for max dmg, silly me.. but I still believe that due to using it mounted you could not apply 2 handed bonuses to the weapon as you are not actually swinging it using your might. you are simply holding it and letting your mount do the work hence why in spirited charge you get 3x for your lance.
larry_the_titan 10-22-07, 12:53 PM	Your friend is doing his math wrong if you are playing in D&D 3.5. Also when checking the numbers you should always check both the average and the max damage at the moment you only did the math for Max damage. Several other numbers were missed while others have out right been used wrong. If you post the characters stats we should be able to figure things out correctly for you.
Slimgauge 10-22-07, 12:56 PM	Here's what I got doing my own math. Weapon Lance (medium 2H) 1d8 Str 18 => +4 dmg x1.5 for 2H +6 1d8 + 6 Pwr Attk (BAB 17) -(17) to hit + (17) to dmg x2 for 2H +34 1d8 + 40 Spirited Charge x3 with lance x3 3x (1d8 + 40) => 3x(1d8) + 120 Critical x3 with lance x3 5x (1d8 + 40) => 5x(1d8) + 200 Axiomatic Dmg +2d6 vs Evil +2d6 2d6 + 5x1d8 + 200 +2d6 vs Chaotic +2d6 4d6 + 5x1d8 + 200 => max of 24 + 40 + 200 => 264 Notes: 1) Assumes a medium character wielding a medium lance in two hands 2) Assumes an 18 str, adjust as needed. 3) Assumes a lvl 17 full BAB class, Pwr Attck feat is limited to your BAB. 4) 3x stacks with 3x to yield 5x. 5) From the SRD "Multiplying Damage": Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Now if he had a few levels of Cavalier and/or his lance had the Charging and Impaling attributes ... P.S. Historical note: The Kontos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontos) was a cavalry lance wielded in two hands from horseback.
Merestil Haye 10-22-07, 12:58 PM	Power Attack (base attack x2 for double handed weapon) = 34 max damage I don't know how he comes to 34 at this point first off...The lance does not count as a two-handed weapon in use. It's only used in one hand.You can get a host of benefits from wielding a twohanded weapon, such as 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage (and twice your damage bonus from the Power Attack feat) and a +4 bonus on your opposed attack roll if someone tries to disarm you. So when is a weapon “twohanded?” For example, a lance is a two-handed weapon, right? But you can wield it in one hand when you’re mounted. Since the weapons table shows that a lance is a two-handed weapon, I get all the two-handed benefits no matter how I wield the lance, right? Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of convenience. These size categories are always relative to the wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see next question). When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed.Consequently in this situation the Paladin gets +17 damage from the lance if he Power Attacks for full Base Attack. Oh, and he doesn't get 1½ times Str bonus either. Spirited Charge (When using a charge attack, deals double damage or triple damage with Lance) = 156 max damage Critical = 468 max damageWhat's going on here? Your friend is assuming that you triple the damage from the lance for a Spirited Charge, then triple that for a crit. That's not the way you do things in D&D maths, sorry. The Spirited Charge triples the damage which means in D&D terms it's adding +200% damage. Critting with the Lance is doing triple damage which means in D&D terms it's adding +200% damage. Thus the damage increase when critting on a Spirited Charge is +200%+200% or a total of five times the normal damage. Not nine times. To sum up, he gets only 1d6 + (Str bonus * Weapon enhancement * Power Attack bonus) five times. Assuming he has a +5 weapon, that means his Str is about 20. If that's right he's dealing 1d6+27, 3d6+81 on a Spirited Charge or crit, and 5d6+135 on a Spirited Cgarge that crits. Then you add the bonus dice from Axiomatic Holy weapons, which do not get multiplied on a crit. The PHB explicitly states that damage increases expressed as a number of bonus dice are not multiplied on a crit.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-07, 01:10 PM	There is nothing preventing you from using a lance two-handed while mounted. The Ride DC to guide your mount with your knees is very low. Also, if a 17th level melee character only has an 18 Str, someone is doing something wrong. It should be near 30. And who cares if this guy can dish out a big hit every now and then? At this level, the wizard is Gating in Solars to do his dirty work, while sitting in the safety of his own demi-plane. As already stated, he probably won't be hitting much if he dumps his entire BAB into Power Attack either, unless he has Shock Trooper or something.
RobbyPants 10-22-07, 01:12 PM	now I assume since he is mounted he is using lance 1 handed so he only gets his str bonus and not 1.5. puting his str at the 22-23 range. I would argue if he is tring to use it 2 handed that he gets extra dmg because mounted you are just holding it and aiming letting the mount supply the strength to do the dmg. <snip> of course I may be wrong on my assumptions of using a lance 2 handed while charging as I do not see how it could possibly add anymore to the damage as you are not providing the umf to the attack the rushing steed is. Per the SRD, you can wield a lance one-handed while mounted, but it doesn't say you need to. Granted, this may or may not be realistic (I don't particularly care), but per the rules, there's nothing stopping him from using the lance two-handed on a mounted charge.
bfiggins 10-22-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah, the damage is tremendous, but: 1. He's charging, so he's giving up his iterative attacks. 2. Unless he has ride-by-attack AND the enemy doesn't pursue him, he can only use this trick once every other turn. (Charge, withdraw, charge) 3. He's not gonna hit much by giving up his whole BAB. 4. He's not gonna confirm many criticals by giving up his whole BAB. 5. Knock him off his damn horse. 6. If it does work, so what? You have a specialized build that managed to confirm a lucky critical. Applaud for the group, give them some XP, then throw the next big monster at them.
Mindolin 10-22-07, 03:24 PM	Okay. I admit I was wrong about the Power Attack thing, though it was not a lie. Check what I said. I BELIEVE, implying not quite total confidence. It was that way in 3rd edition, and I don't have any of my books with me. Fact is, this person either didn't know how to do the math himself, or hoped you wouldn't doublecheck.
Kanati8869 10-22-07, 06:42 PM	I'm very appreciative of the responses. I have something to go on now more than his word and my also faulty maths. :D
AlterFrom 10-22-07, 07:56 PM	I won't comment on the math (I trust the other guys got it sorted out), but in one of the campaigns my group played in at a small con, my friend made a character by the name of Dravian Lionhart. Dravian comboed the above with Deep Impact for ridiculous chance to hit and damage. Needless to say, he was retired by unanimous vote (including the friend) that he was needlessly powerful. He then played a wizard. :D
FrostHammer 10-22-07, 10:03 PM	1. There are Chargers that don't use Shock Trooper? 2. He can keep his Iterative attacks with just one level in Barbarian. Losing Rage is not important when he converts (for rp reasons) to Lawful and takes the rest of his levels in Paladin or something. Or possibly takes a level or 2 of fighter before that for feats.
Dog_O_War 10-23-07, 11:12 AM	I had a friend who made a paladin back in 3.0 (when balors sucked) that could kill one in a single hit; non-critical and he'd be able to hit it 70% of the time at level 9. This leads me to my next question; did that spell (I think it was called zealous sacrifice or something) get reprinted? what it did was allow a paladin to sacrifice some hit points for bonus damage; this could be done over a number of rounds. Anyone remember this? That spell would add alot of damage potential (I think it was somewhere in the realm of 20d6 after 4 or 5 rounds of sacrifice) for a relatively minor hit.
Slimgauge 10-23-07, 11:18 AM	There's "Divine Sacrifice" in Complete Divine, p163, but that maxes out at +5d6 (at the cost of 10 hp per use) and is limited to one use per round for the duration of the spell.
Dog_O_War 10-23-07, 11:19 AM	Thanks, that was the one I was looking for.
bfiggins 10-23-07, 01:25 PM	Greater Divine Surge in the Tome of Battle is great - for every point of Con damage you take, you get +1 on the attack roll and +1d8 damage.
Enphenitie 10-23-07, 04:30 PM	2. He can keep his Iterative attacks with just one level in Barbarian. Losing Rage is not important when he converts (for rp reasons) to Lawful and takes the rest of his levels in Paladin or something. Or possibly takes a level or 2 of fighter before that for feats. How does that work? Why does a level in barbarian allow iterative attacks after a charge?
Suspect_Unusual 10-23-07, 05:33 PM	How does that work? Why does a level in barbarian allow iterative attacks after a charge? Lion Totem barbarian alternate class feature from Complete Champion. Because, y'know, all DMs allow such a powerful class feature as Pounce for the loss of fast movement. :rolleyes:
kalstrand 10-23-07, 06:51 PM	Divine Sacrifice was changed in the Spell Compendium.
FrostHammer 10-23-07, 11:59 PM	Lion Totem barbarian alternate class feature from Complete Champion. Because, y'know, all DMs allow such a powerful class feature as Pounce for the loss of fast movement. :rolleyes: Right, just like all DMs allow such powerful things as Natural Spell and an Animal Compantion for Druids... :rolleyes:
StevenO 10-24-07, 12:42 AM	Am I imagining things or is everyone missing the possibility that the damage potential also includes a Smite. Getting +17 damage as a 17th level paladin x5 for a critical spirited charge is another possible 85 points of damage. There may also be a divine feat or two that would help boost the maximum damage potential.
BruceLeeroy 10-24-07, 02:25 AM	Why doesn't he get Valorous on the lance and use Rhino's Rush? Spirited Charge + Rhino's Rush + Valorous + Crit = x7 multiplier. That puts his max damage (with Smite, as the previous poster mentioned) at... 8 + 12 + 34 + 17 = 71 x 7 = 497 +4d6 for a Lawful Axiomatic lance. That's not bad. Armbands of Might would add 14, for a total of 511.
Oliver D'Argent 10-24-07, 07:48 AM	When it come to buffs, remember that any Strength bonus he has that comes from items will not stack with the bonus granted by Bull's Strength.
RobbyPants 10-24-07, 08:49 AM	Right, just like all DMs allow such powerful things as Natural Spell and an Animal Compantion for Druids... :rolleyes: I think the difference here is that one (pounce) is an alternate class feature from a splat book that is obviously more powerful than the ability it replaces, while the others (Natural Spell and Animal Companion) are core (albiet powerful) material.
Suspect_Unusual 10-24-07, 02:25 PM	I think the difference here is that one (pounce) is an alternate class feature from a splat book that is obviously more powerful than the ability it replaces, while the others (Natural Spell and Animal Companion) are core (albiet powerful) material. And besides that, there are plenty of people on this board who DO ban Natural Spell, at least in its current form.
FrostHammer 10-24-07, 09:13 PM	And besides that, there are plenty of people on this board who DO ban Natural Spell, at least in its current form. I find it funny that some poeple would want to ban something that's LESS powerful than Natural Spell, while keeping Natural Spell. I'm not sure if you fall into that category.
SirGeekelot 10-29-07, 04:42 PM	Hello all. Thanks for the input ... I am the "insane player" that uses my paladin for mounted combat. First let me correct a mistake, the form I sent to my DM (OP) was to read: "Also, against Evil Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Evil creatures I get +4d6. This damage would NOT be added before Spirited Charge and before a possible Critical." I realize that these add as an addition to your final, not to your base. With that out of the way ... I multiplied my critical hits wrong, sorry about that one. I'm pretty confident that everything else works the way I had it outlined and this thread has helped to solidify that for me. Thanks all.
Suspect_Unusual 10-29-07, 07:37 PM	I find it funny that some poeple would want to ban something that's LESS powerful than Natural Spell, while keeping Natural Spell. I'm not sure if you fall into that category. Not everyone is logical when it comes to what is banned and what is not, and doubly so for "what a melee character should be allowed to do" versus "what a spellcaster should be allowed to do". Regardless, I don't ban anything, as I'm rarely, if ever, the DM. I exploit things instead. :D
FrostHammer 10-29-07, 09:10 PM	Well I feel it is high time Melee classes get to keep up with spellcasters somewhat.
Suspect_Unusual 10-29-07, 09:26 PM	Well I feel it is high time Melee classes get to keep up with spellcasters somewhat. OMGWTFBANHAMMER! Now where did I put that Wizard Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil/Archmage build?
risner 10-30-07, 01:55 AM	Lance Damage = 1d6 STR and Bonus Damage = 12 max dmg Power Attack (base attack x2 for double handed weapon) = 34 max damage Spirited Charge (When using a charge attack, deals double damage or triple damage with Lance) = 156 max damage Critical = 468 max damage "Also, against Evil Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Evil creatures I get +4d6. This damage would be added before Spirited Charge and before a possible Critical." Can someone help me out here? My player has gone insane, or I have. :) He isn't reading the PHB. 1d6 max hit = 6 Assuming STR 30, that is +10, 6+10=16 Power Attack for max (-17 to hit) for +17+17=+34 Which brings us to 6+10+34 Charging with a Lance = x3 Critical = x2 Charging with a Lance and Critical = x4 (6+10+34)*4 = 200 damage Bonus Damage dice of 2d6 from Bane Evil Bane Outsider wouldn't add since the weapon is already Bane, so he loses the 2d6 from Bane Outsider. Final total 200+2d6 = maxed = 200+12 = 212 damage The Most He can do is 212 damage, period. That requires he roll a 20 and roll the confirmation at -17 to hit making a 30 AC (average for a CR17 monster), which means he will need roughly a 20 on the confirmation roll (and remember confirmation rolls do NOT auto confirm on a 20.) He will then need to hit a 6 on all four 1d6 rolls. So, that means he has a 1 in 518,403 chance of doing max damage of 212 damage. If he comes to a higher max damage he has violated PHB 300 multiplication rules and he has also violated "extra damage dice are not added during criticals" rules.
Tordak 10-31-07, 09:57 AM	Only a little point, crit with lances are x3, so it's x5 on charge and crit. (brings total max to 262)
Black Mantha 11-01-07, 12:30 PM	I have a build like that with a cleric. At level 20: Base strength: 22 Strength domain power: +16 enhancement righteous might: +8 size Total modifier: +18 Base (enlarged) Lance: 1d8 Enhancement: +5 enhancement divine favour: +5 divine Smite (destruction domain): +16 Power Attack (+divine might): +40 (I weild two-handed) 1.5x Strength: +27 Total max damage: 101 x 5 = 505 damage. Total attack bonus: +28 I reserved 4 levels for other classes, and didn't use tomes, bonus damage dice, or any book but the PHB.
risner 11-01-07, 03:23 PM	cleric. At level 20: Base strength: 22 Strength domain power: +16 enhancement righteous might: +8 size Total modifier: +18 Base (enlarged) Lance: 1d8 Enhancement: +5 enhancement divine favour: +5 divine Smite (destruction domain): +16 Power Attack (+divine power): -20attack/+40 damage (I weild two-handed) Charge: +2 attack 1.5x Strength: +27 Total max damage: 101 x 5 = 505 damage. Total attack bonus: +28 I reserved 4 levels for other classes, and didn't use tomes, bonus damage dice, or any book but the PHB. Base Strength: 22 (+6 attack/damage) Strength Domain (enhancement; free action): +16 STR (+8 attack/damage) Righteous Might (size): +8 STR (+4 attack/damage) divine favour (luck): +5 attack/damage Smite (destruction domain; standard action): +4 attack/+16 damage Power Attack (+divine power): -20attack/+40 damage (I weild two-handed) Total Strength: 22+16+8 = 46 (+18 attack/damage) Total Attack: 18+5+4-20+2 = +9 Total Damage: 18*1.5+5+16+40=88 Can't charge because you used Smite (a standard action) Lance x3 on a Critical +9 to hit, +88*3 damage +9 to hit 264 damage three previous rounds to prepare
Slimgauge 11-01-07, 03:44 PM	Can't charge because you used Smite (a standard action) Huh ? Where are you getting that ? From the SRD: Attacking on a Charge After moving, you may make a single melee attack. Smite Evil (Su) Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level. Nothing about a standard action. As long as you've got smite attempts remaining, you can use them on any 'normal' melee attack. If you did a full attack and your BAB is high enough for iterative attacks, you could use one smite attempt per. What precisely 'normal' means in this context is somewhat debatable. I believe it means melee attacks intended to inflict damage rather than some other effect, including AoOs and the single melee attack at the end of a charge, but not such things as trip, grapple, or disarm. I'm unsure about Coup De Grace and sunder. The object to be sundered would itself have to be evil (not just the wielder/wearer) for a 'smite evil' to have a chance of working on it I'd think, but it might be restricted only to creatures. Is there something in a FAQ or elsewhere that I've missed ?
PhaedrusXY 11-01-07, 04:02 PM	Assuming STR 30, that is +10He's using it with two hands, so its actually +15 to damage from Str.
risner 11-01-07, 08:11 PM	Nothing about a standard action. Is there something in a FAQ or elsewhere that I've missed ? Supernatural = Standard Action unless otherwise specified. It doesn't otherwise specify that it is a free action.
Slimgauge 11-01-07, 09:01 PM	Ok, so this part of the SRD Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. So it takes one standard action to 'use' the smite. This includes the 'normal' melee attack ? So you can't smite on a charge ? This is a different from how I'd usually seen it played, but it looks like it might be right by RAW.
Qube 11-02-07, 02:13 PM	probably everything is already said, but I wanna help, but am to laisy to read the thread Lance Damage = 1d6 STR and Bonus Damage = 12 max dmg Power Attack (base attack x2 for double handed weapon) = 34 max damage I don't know how he comes to 34 at this point first off... THIS IS WRONG: power attack gives you a 1:2 ratio. this is very important since multipliers don't multiply, but add. 1:2 power attack, critical x2 = 4 times as much damage x2 effect, critical x2 = 3 times as much damage, not 4 times! Spirited Charge (When using a charge attack, deals double damage or triple damage with Lance) = 156 max damage Critical = 468 max damagethat would be x3 spirited charge, x3 critical? there you go: WRONG: its x5, not x6 And that's without being buffed. He comes to 684 points max damage with Bulls Strength, Prayer and Greater Magical Weapon. And as an added bonus, he states the following: "Also, against Evil Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Creatures I get +2d6 damage. Against Chaotic Evil creatures I get +4d6. This damage would be added before Spirited Charge and before a possible Critical."additional dice don't get multiplied by crits ...Ok. I'm all for doing a lot of damage at higher levels, but that just seems like he's smoking crack to me. That's a potential 708 points of damage he thinks he's going to get with one charge using a lance.when he fully power attacks and criticals ... try shocktrooper (penalty goes from AC instead of attack, when charging) + frenzied beserker (1:4 power attack ration) + leap attack (power attack x3 damage) + pounce ability (when charging, make full attack) --- thats 980 damage from power attack allown; without criticals or attack penalty (actually with +2 attack from charge)
Tordak 11-02-07, 02:59 PM	So it takes one standard action to 'use' the smite. This includes the 'normal' melee attack ? So you can't smite on a charge ? This is a different from how I'd usually seen it played, but it looks like it might be right by RAW. I might be wrong, but I think the 'unless noted otherwise' is what applies here; use can make a smite attack with one 'normal melee attack', whether it's taken as a standard action or as part of a full-round action. It even applies at the end of a charge cause you get one melee attack at the end of it (a pretty normal one I would say).
Enigmis 11-02-07, 08:51 PM	Right, just like all DMs allow such powerful things as Natural Spell and an Animal Compantion for Druids... :rolleyes: just like all DMs allow such powerful things as Wizards :rolleyes:
Black Mantha 11-09-07, 03:30 PM	Nothing about a standard action. As long as you've got smite attempts remaining, you can use them on any 'normal' melee attack. If you did a full attack and your BAB is high enough for iterative attacks, you could use one smite attempt per. That's the paladin ability you quoted. The cleric domain power, I see now, is a standard action. :blink: well... now I either have to keep silent, allow a much weaker ultimate attack, or scrap him. Oh, and, risner, you miscalculated my attack roll; forgot the BaB, the size modifier and to omit the charge bonus.
Scion of Coldshard 11-09-07, 06:00 PM	I guess it might be important to note that power attacking with a two handed weapon (such as a lance, regardless of how many hands are used) gives 2 points of damage for every -1 attack penalty taken but this is not a mulitplier from the one handed case, each is distinct so it multiplies fully rather than stacking multipliers.
dawnbringer 11-10-07, 04:15 PM	And besides that, there are plenty of people on this board who DO ban Natural Spell, at least in its current form. And if I wanted to play a druid and the DM banned Natural Spell, i'd refuse to play^^.
Rulebook 11-10-07, 06:40 PM	the SRD dosent say anything about the cleric smite being a standard action. it just says you can make a single melee attack with it. melee attacks occur at the end of charges too.
Black Mantha 11-11-07, 05:30 PM	It doesn't have to say that; it's the default. As written, it's a standard action which includes an attack. But reading it over, I wonder if that's what was intended or not... anyone got more information?
war_thog 04-07-08, 09:49 AM	It says its a normal melee attack and would suffer all the benefits and restrictions to all normal attacks made in melee --> same as every other melee attack.
narack 04-07-08, 12:28 PM	Monkey grip + enlarge + (huge +2 lightning burst great maul) + leap + powerful charge + power attack 10 + level 10 fighter = 4d6 +1d6(lightning) + 30(PA) + 9(24str) + 3d6(PC) + 2(enh) + 3d10(burst) 17-20(improve crit) X4 total max 368 damage
nightwyrm 04-07-08, 03:29 PM	RE: charging and smiting In the PHB2 paladin charging smite variant, it says, "..if you smite evil on a charge attack..", implies that one can charge and smite normally since the variant does not mention that charging with a smite is a granted ability of that variant.
Traya 04-07-08, 05:42 PM	This is what I am getting. A lance is 1D8 damage for a medium creature but 1D6 for a small creature. Considering you say its 1D6 im guessing he is a small creature. To get a +12 in bonus damage he needs a +8 modifier from his strength. Using the lance two handed it is added 1-1/2 making it 8 + 4 which comes out to the 12 you said. current total 1D6 + 12 = 18(20 if medium sized) To get a +34 damage from power attack using a two handed weapon he needs a +17 BAB (+2 for every -1 while using the weapon two handed). Current total = 18 + 34 = 52. (54 if medium sized) Using the multipler stacking he is getting a x3 ( using a lance and spirited charge) and another x3 for its base critical modifier. The stacking rule states that for each extra multiplier after the first add it with a -1 . (3x + 3x - 1x = 5x) current total 52 * 5 = 260 damage non buffed and without axiomatic damage. (270 if medium sized). This is using the stats you listed.
Qube 04-08-08, 04:32 AM	Monkey grip + enlarge + (huge +2 lightning burst great maul) + leap + powerful charge + power attack 10 + level 10 fighter = 4d6 +1d6(lightning) + 30(PA) + 9(24str) + 3d6(PC) + 2(enh) + 3d10(burst) 17-20(improve crit) X4psionic warrior 10: - casts expand on itself (unlike the fighter, ...) - all the things the fighter does - casts psionic lions pounce while charging ...; 9 damage less (+7 BAB instead of +10) but 2 attacks ... and casted expand on its own. ... not to mention he can use psionic weapon or deep impact or ...
narack 04-08-08, 07:57 AM	psionic warrior 10: - casts expand on itself (unlike the fighter, ...) - all the things the fighter does - casts psionic lions pounce while charging ...; 9 damage less (+7 BAB instead of +10) but 2 attacks ... and casted expand on its own. ... not to mention he can use psionic weapon or deep impact or ... U see that's why i don't like psionic.
Qube 04-08-08, 10:10 AM	U see that's why i don't like psionic.because a Gish class is given? I think thats rather nice ... as your other option is fighter/sorcerer or fighter/wizard with no-somatic component spells ... like true strike and blur (I mean why spend a feat on shock trooper if you can use true strike? ) note the prestige class in the DMG (full BAB and 9 levels of spellcasting) core gish 10 (fighter5 wizard5 prestige class10) / compared to psiwar20: BAB: 18 (4 attacks) <-> 15 (3 attacks) saves: mulitclassing is better for saves spell selection: psi war is stuck with psionics and complete psionics. core gish can use any broken splat book there is (ends at caster level 14). a quick core gish spell selection: prepared: (1) true strike (2) blur and stilled enlarge person (3) stilled wraithstrike (4) dimention doors or stilled lvl 3 transmutations (haste, greater magic weapon, ...) (5) quickened (thus no AoO) true strike (6) stilled wall of force, mass suggestion (7) stilled antimagic field (Contingency: greater invisibility) sorry for saying it, but I don't see how psionic warrior is sooo much more broken then a core gish ...
aelryinth 04-08-08, 01:51 PM	I will point out that the Sage noted that the feats for a Lance assumed you are wielding a lance in the proper manner, i.e. one-handed. If you want to use it two handed, you forgo the benefits of the feats for the additional benefit of Power Attack, etc. The reason why a lance IS so powerful on a charge is to recognize the fact that it does as much dmg as a weapon wielded in two hands. === Also, the weapon above is an Axiomatic, Holy weapon, not a Bane (Evil outsiders) weapon. Also, I saw no mention of enhancement bonuses on the weapon. So, the math is actually fairly easy. 1d8 for a lance. Assuming a 30 str, +10 from Str. Assuming full Power Attack, +17 from PA. Assuming a Smite, +17 from Smite. Assuming +5, +5 from Lance. Assuming Holy/Axiomatic, +4d6 to CE foes, after all other mods. so, we have 1d8 +49 +4d6. Spirited Charge for triple dmg, gives us 3d8 +147 +4d6. A critical would give us x5 dmg, for 5d8 + 245 +4d6...enough to really ruin something's day. A Valorous Lance would increase the charge multipliers to x4 normally, x6 on a critical, for 4d8 +196/6d8+294, +4d6. Divine Power with a buffed Cha of 30 could give another +10 dmg. Bless Weapon would automatically confirm any criticals. One of the Domain feats could potentially up the TH/DMG, I suppose. TH? Well, the Smite throws things off. Base +0, lets say +10 from Smite, +2 from charge, +10 from Str, +5 from enhancement = +27 on the charge. If Divine Power affects TH/Dmg, potentially +37 (I think it's just dmg, however). It's not GREAT...but on something with a lower AC, he could pull it off. Easily if he has a pocket True Strike or something in the wings. And we haven't gotten into Prayer, Bless, or any of the other potential buff spells that could help him out. ==Aelryinth
Traya 04-08-08, 02:09 PM	I will point out that the Sage noted that the feats for a Lance assumed you are wielding a lance in the proper manner, i.e. one-handed. If you want to use it two handed, you forgo the benefits of the feats for the additional benefit of Power Attack, etc. ==Aelryinth I would say that is silly ruling on the Sage's part. I dont see how you cant get the lance benefits while wielding it two-handed , not to mention you get the benefits of it while you aren't mounted and you HAVE to use it two handed. If you are charging into someone theres going to be ALOT more force behind a weapon when using two hands instead of just one. On horseback I can easily see someone using the momentum of the horse for the initial charge then using there own bodies force and momentum to make a powerful thrust two handed right as the charge impacts , basically a power attack. That sounds to me alot more plausible than for some reason not being able to.
aelryinth 04-09-08, 01:04 AM	I would say that is silly ruling on the Sage's part. I dont see how you cant get the lance benefits while wielding it two-handed , not to mention you get the benefits of it while you aren't mounted and you HAVE to use it two handed. If you are charging into someone theres going to be ALOT more force behind a weapon when using two hands instead of just one. On horseback I can easily see someone using the momentum of the horse for the initial charge then using there own bodies force and momentum to make a powerful thrust two handed right as the charge impacts , basically a power attack. That sounds to me alot more plausible than for some reason not being able to. You are completely mistaken in this. Just try to couch a lance with two hands. You have to reach entirely across your body and twist yourself to do so, which is NOT a comfortable or easy thing to do atop a charging mount. There is no advantage to the thrusting motion. Your off hand would be better spent holding onto your saddle so you can help the momentum of your mount drive into the lance. The only way you could conceivably charge and get full force from both arms would be to hold the thing over your head. You can't keep the thing in motion to work both arms to full extent...you have to keep it couched. Go take a look at any kind of jousting tourney, combat re-enactment, or whatnot. You never see a horseman using a lance with two hands...it's suicide, looks dumb, and gives you no style points at all. ===Aelryinth
PhaedrusXY 04-09-08, 01:37 AM	I will point out that the Sage noted that the feats for a Lance assumed you are wielding a lance in the proper manner, i.e. one-handed. If you want to use it two handed, you forgo the benefits of the feats for the additional benefit of Power Attack, etc.And where was this "noted"? In one of his House Rules of the Game articles? It is 100% legal per the rules. I don't really give a crap whether it is "realistic" to use a lance with two hands. Go look at the pictures of the spiked chain and dire flail, and then come back and talk about realism and D&D weapons. They're ain't any.
Traya 04-09-08, 03:19 AM	You are completely mistaken in this. Just try to couch a lance with two hands. You have to reach entirely across your body and twist yourself to do so, which is NOT a comfortable or easy thing to do atop a charging mount. There is no advantage to the thrusting motion. Your off hand would be better spent holding onto your saddle so you can help the momentum of your mount drive into the lance. The only way you could conceivably charge and get full force from both arms would be to hold the thing over your head. You can't keep the thing in motion to work both arms to full extent...you have to keep it couched. Go take a look at any kind of jousting tourney, combat re-enactment, or whatnot. You never see a horseman using a lance with two hands...it's suicide, looks dumb, and gives you no style points at all. ===Aelryinth I dont see how the thrusting motion would give you no advantage , sure its an uncomfortable position but it would still be extra force being put into the blow. I can really see it viable just very reckless to do so. And Im willing to say that at a tourney its not that it sounds like a silly idea but more tradition on what they do.
BronzeBeard 04-09-08, 03:31 AM	So on a 'normal' hit, his max damage is 18. You can take a penalty of up to your BAB (here -17), and add double that to your damage (for a 2H weapon). So it is +34, but he won't be hitting much. That's 52 damage net. Yep, 52x3 = 156. When stacking multiplier, you don't just multiply again, you add up the extra damage. He had x3 from spirited charge (extra damage = x2 base), and x3 from a crit (extra damage = 2x base), for a total of 5x (base + 2x base + 2x base), or 260 points. All that is added in after the multipliers are done. So he did it wrong, but it doesn't much matters. He'll hardly hit anything with a -17 power attack, much less crit it. jaelis, here's a :cookie: And I second him.
Merestil Haye 04-09-08, 05:04 AM	The lance is a one-handed weapon in use. From the FAQ :When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed.You wield a lance one-handed because as Aelrynth said) you're "couching" the lance. Trying to wield it two-handed would have some pretty severe consequences. Twisting and leaning across would put your whole weight on the right-hand side of the mount, and you would fall off. Holding it above your head would paint a target on your chest, and would make it harder to guide the lance to boot.
Oliver D'Argent 04-09-08, 07:47 AM	If you are dealing with weapons that are unrealistic to begin with, being unrealistic is fine - but with actual historical weapons, realism should predominate. There was a constant development of weapons and armor over the years and corresponding fighting styles. Medieval knights did not use the lance in the couched position because of "tradition", but because that was the most effective way to wield the weapon.