Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darth_borehd 03-02-07, 12:46 AM	Can spot be used to notice a strange smell? Or difference in texture? Or that something doesn't taste right?
claypigeons 03-02-07, 01:14 AM	SPOT (WIS) Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying. Sounds pretty sight dependent to me. Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Bolding is mine. Just for confirmation... So, no, you can't use your eyes to smell. Or taste.
Ellanon 03-02-07, 01:38 AM	How then would you adjudicate a character possibly noticing an odd texture or smell? Wisdom check?
darth_borehd 03-02-07, 01:39 AM	Sounds pretty sight dependent to me. Bolding is mine. Just for confirmation... So, no, you can't use your eyes to smell. Or taste. It seems like a matter of interpretation. I don't see anything in the skill description that says eyes only. Spotting invisible creatures could be related to feeling air currents or smelling BO. And the example of blinded penalties only give an example of when the skill relies on vision. It doesn't say it can't also be based on other senses. I still find it to be ambiguous about whether smell/taste/touch is included or excluded.
Ellanon 03-02-07, 01:59 AM	It seems like a matter of interpretation. I don't see anything in the skill description that says eyes only. Spotting invisible creatures could be related to feeling air currents or smelling BO. And the example of blinded penalties only give an example of when the skill relies on vision. It doesn't say it can't also be based on other senses. I still find it to be ambiguous about whether smell/taste/touch is included or excluded. Personally, I have always been tempted to combine Spot and Listen into one skill to alleviate this problem. On the same token, I've always wanted to combine Hide and Move Silently into one Stealth skill. I'd do it, if not for the fact that it would give far too many "extra" skill points to the already skill point heavy classes. Personally, I use Spot for anything that doesn't apply to Listen. =)
Tukka 03-02-07, 02:13 AM	I might call for a wisdom check to determine if they can smell the scent or not and a Knowledge, Survival, Craft or Profession check to identify the scent, if any of those skills are relevant, or perhaps give a circumstance bonus to noticing the scent if they are good (5+ ranks) in the appropriate skill. Spot sounds very vision-focused to me. You don't typically say "Glad you spotted that gas odor before I lit my cigarette lighter," I don't think it's a catch-all term for perceiving something anymore than "listening" or "hearing" is, so why not call for a Listen check instead of Spot? I think the usual way of handling scents and textures is to describe them, perhaps vaguely or in passing to the player and let them decide what action to take and whether further investigation is warranted. That's what I'd say from my point of view as a newbie player/DM.
claypigeons 03-02-07, 03:45 AM	It seems like a matter of interpretation. I don't see anything in the skill description that says eyes only. Spotting invisible creatures could be related to feeling air currents or smelling BO. And the example of blinded penalties only give an example of when the skill relies on vision. It doesn't say it can't also be based on other senses. I still find it to be ambiguous about whether smell/taste/touch is included or excluded. Apparently we aren't speaking the same language. See, to me, "relies upon your eyes" means it uses your eyes. Not your nose. Or your ears. As for smells... if you want to use sense of smell to locate people, get the Scent ability. Whether or not you choose to interpret it as such, the Spot skill requires vision.
primemover003 03-02-07, 11:35 AM	Well here's something to throw off the argument!!! GRIMLOCK Medium Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4 Attack: Battleaxe +4 melee (1d8+3/3) Full Attack: Battleaxe +4 melee (1d8+3/3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Blindsight 40 ft., immunities, scent Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +2 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 6 Skills: Climb +4, Hide +3*, Listen +5, Spot +3 Feats: Alertness, TrackB Environment: Underground Organization: Gang (2–4), pack (10–20), tribe (10–60 plus 1 leader of 3rd–5th level per 10 adults). Challenge Rating: 1 Treasure: Standard coins; standard goods (gems only); standard items Alignment: Often neutral evil Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +2 COMBAT Grimlocks are blind, but their exceptional senses of smell and hearing allow them to notice foes nearby. As a result, they usually shun ranged weapons and rush to the attack, brandishing their stone battleaxes. Blindsight (Ex): Grimlocks can sense all foes within 40 feet as a sighted creature would. Beyond that range, they treat all targets as having total concealment. Grimlocks are susceptible to sound- and scent-based attacks, however, and are affected normally by loud noises and sonic spells (such as ghost sound or silence) and overpowering odors (such as stinking cloud or incense-heavy air). Negating a grimlock’s sense of smell or hearing reduces this ability to normal Blind-Fight (as the feat). If both these senses are negated, a grimlock is effectively blinded. Immunities: Grimlocks are immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. Skills: *A grimlock’s dull gray skin helps it hide in its native terrain, conferring a +10 racial bonus on Hide checks when in mountains or underground. GRIMLOCKS AS CHARACTERS Grimlock characters possess the following racial traits. — +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma. —Medium size. —A grimlock’s base land speed is 30 feet. —Racial Hit Dice: A grimlock begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3. —Racial Skills: A grimlock’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, and Spot. Grimlocks gain a +10 racial bonus on Hide checks in mountain or underground settings. —Racial Feats: A grimlock’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat. —Weapon Proficiency: A grimlock is automatically proficient with the battleaxe. — +4 natural armor bonus. —Special Qualities (see above): Blindsight 40 ft., immunities, scent. —Automatic Languages: Common, Grimlock. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnome, Terran, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Barbarian. —Level adjustment +2.
Rhuxley 03-02-07, 12:06 PM	Well here's something to throw off the argument!!! How does that throw off the arguement? They have good smelling, so they have the scent ability.
Steevo 03-02-07, 12:31 PM	I'm firmly in the "Spot is vision dependent" camp myself. Spot is for seeing, Listen is for hearing. There are no skills for smelling, tasting or feeling things because those sense are less important when it comes to detecting events in the world around you (at least subconsciously.) If there was an odd odor to detect or a strange taste (potentially a warning of poison) I would give the player the Wisdom check. But there'd be no way to put ranks into it. You can't really "train" yourself to notice smells or tastes better than other people, it all falls back on raw talent, which is what your Abilities are for.
laughinggranny 03-02-07, 12:35 PM	if they cant see why do they have a bonus to spot... if spot is vision related only.... I believe that's his point.
WHW4 03-02-07, 12:50 PM	A situation occured in one of our groups recent sessions. The party was assaulting a bridgehead, and part of it's heavy fortification was boiling oil over the main portcullis. Our DM at first was at a loss on how to do a "smell check," but after a moment of deliberation, he decided that everyone could smell the oil overhead, and it was an intelligence check to figure out what the smell was. You could use wisdom, or what ever the situation called for. That was our solution. Smells are just there... trying to figure out someone's skill at smelling is a bit overcomplicated.
crowclub 03-02-07, 01:00 PM	If only they had used the term/title Perception instead of Wisdom. Whats Wisdom got to do with hearing and seeing?!
Shadowfax7 03-02-07, 01:06 PM	Wisdom check?I use this IMC. Also, Tucca's suggestion of identifying a scent with a Survival check, etc. is a good suggestion. And BTW, Grimlocks use their Listen and Spot skills for their Blindsight ability as a mechanic of that ability (see Blindsight description in the MM).
cwslyclgh 03-02-07, 01:50 PM	if they cant see why do they have a bonus to spot... if spot is vision related only.... I believe that's his point.they have blindsight, blindsight is a type of vision.
pres_man 03-02-07, 02:33 PM	they have blindsight, blindsight is a type of vision. It is a type of perception, not vision. Vision requires the absorption of electro-magnetic radiation in the visible spectrum with the eyes. No eyes => no vision. There still may be perception, but it is not based on light so it is not vision.
cwslyclgh 03-02-07, 02:56 PM	blindsight is blindsight.
AQuebman 03-02-07, 07:03 PM	It is a type of perception, not vision. Vision requires the absorption of electro-magnetic radiation in the visible spectrum with the eyes. No eyes => no vision. There still may be perception, but it is not based on light so it is not vision. I honestly would imagine that darkvision would not rely on light so therefore light is not a way of deciding whether it's vision or not. Blindsight is a sensory form of vision but it is still vision. I think smell/feel etc.. is something that a dm needs to figure out on the fly.
pres_man 03-02-07, 07:09 PM	From the Glossary: Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures and the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing (as a bat's echolocation ability does). Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
pres_man 03-02-07, 07:09 PM	blindsight is blindsight. Based on not seeing, thank for that clarifying statement.
Jaxgaret 03-02-07, 09:58 PM	Jeez, people, stop arguing already! Here, I'll figure the Grimlock issue out for you: Grimlocks are susceptible to sound- and scent-based attacks, however, and are affected normally by loud noises and sonic spells (such as ghost sound or silence) and overpowering odors (such as stinking cloud or incense-heavy air). Negating a grimlock’s sense of smell or hearing reduces this ability to normal Blind-Fight (as the feat). If both these senses are negated, a grimlock is effectively blinded. Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Their Blindsight is a hearing and smell based perceptive ability. It is not vision.
darth_borehd 03-02-07, 11:44 PM	Apparently we aren't speaking the same language. See, to me, "relies upon your eyes" means it uses your eyes. Not your nose. Or your ears. As for smells... if you want to use sense of smell to locate people, get the Scent ability. Whether or not you choose to interpret it as such, the Spot skill requires vision. My point is that it indicates one specific one to use the skill but doesn't explicitly state that it is restricted to that method. There could be other ways of using the same skill. If blinded, I wouldn't be able to read with my eyes. But if the letters were carved into a bas relief, I might be able to read them with my fingers. The same could be said of the Spot skill.
benihana 03-02-07, 11:49 PM	Humans (and by extension, all the major races) have very good eyesight. We also can hear pretty well. People such as guards and soldiers are trained to see and hear things more effectively. On the other hand, we have a horrible sense of smell, compared to many animals. So bad that I wouldn't consider it trainable. Also, what do you use spot and listen for? To see a guy trying to hide and hear a guy trying to sneak up on you. Most creatures can't hide their smell, which is at the mercy of the wind. You either smell it or you don't.
claypigeons 03-03-07, 01:23 AM	My point is that it indicates one specific one to use the skill but doesn't explicitly state that it is restricted to that method. There could be other ways of using the same skill. If blinded, I wouldn't be able to read with my eyes. But if the letters were carved into a bas relief, I might be able to read them with my fingers. The same could be said of the Spot skill. "Wait! Wait guys... Let me feel it... Okay... I got an 18 for my spot check..what did I feel?" Yeah... makes perfect sense to me. Spot = Sight Dependent Skill. Like anything else, you can choose to treat it differently, but it would be a house rule. By the rules as presented in the PHB, you are required to have sight to make a spot check.
Steevo 03-03-07, 11:24 AM	If only they had used the term/title Perception instead of Wisdom. Whats Wisdom got to do with hearing and seeing?! Wisdom has nothing to do with seeing and hearing. Wisdom does, however, have something to do with recognizing patterns in your mind. Wisdom represents your ability to put two and two together (with due haste.) Anyone can see a small patch of red in the bushes. Those with high wisdom are the ones who realize (before it's too late) that patch of red is part of someone's tunic, so there must be someone hiding behind there. Likewise for recognizing sounds, smells or whatever in due time.
crowclub 03-03-07, 03:34 PM	Wisdom has nothing to do with seeing and hearing. Wisdom does, however, have something to do with recognizing patterns in your mind. Wisdom represents your ability to put two and two together (with due haste.) Anyone can see a small patch of red in the bushes. Those with high wisdom are the ones who realize (before it's too late) that patch of red is part of someone's tunic, so there must be someone hiding behind there. Likewise for recognizing sounds, smells or whatever in due time. All of which could just as easily be defined under the banner of Perception
FrostHammer 03-03-07, 04:15 PM	You can't really "train" yourself to notice smells or tastes better than other people, it all falls back on raw talent, which is what your Abilities are for. Actually you can. Lately scientists conducted an experiment, and found out that, with TRAINING, humans can use smell almost as well as dogs can. Of course, that's real life and not DnD.
cwslyclgh 03-03-07, 05:01 PM	Actually you can. Lately scientists conducted an experiment, and found out that, with TRAINING, humans can use smell almost as well as dogs can. Of course, that's real life and not DnD. any chance you can site some sources for that? because, biologically speaking, humans do not have the number of scent receptors, nor the correct amount of development in the oalfactory centers of the brain to have a sense of smell anywhere close to as well as a dog has.
FrostHammer 03-03-07, 07:02 PM	I wish I could. All I remember was hearing it while listening to NPR one day.
benihana 03-03-07, 07:11 PM	I wish I could. All I remember was hearing it while listening to NPR one day. NPR seems to make weird claims like that. Several times someone I know has mentioned hearing something incredibly strange on NPR that turns out to be wrong.
darth_borehd 03-04-07, 12:11 AM	NPR seems to make weird claims like that. Several times someone I know has mentioned hearing something incredibly strange on NPR that turns out to be wrong. It was probably this item about an experiment that shows that humans can track by smell in a manner similar to dogs. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6642887
Steevo 03-04-07, 08:01 AM	All of which could just as easily be defined under the banner of Perception I agree. But it was defined under the banner of Wisdom. Considering everything else Wisdom also does, I think that's fair. I mean, if it were called Perception, I'm fairly sure there'd be people asking why Perception is the base ability for Will saves, or why Perception is the core casting ability for clerics, etc. Wisdom makes sense enough for the purpose of noticing things when you think of it as mental acuity, and it also works better for all the other things Wisdom is in charge of doing.
Willie the Duck 03-04-07, 05:40 PM	"Wait! Wait guys... Let me feel it... Okay... I got an 18 for my spot check..what did I feel?" Yeah... makes perfect sense to me. Spot = Sight Dependent Skill. Like anything else, you can choose to treat it differently, but it would be a house rule. By the rules as presented in the PHB, you are required to have sight to make a spot check. The point is that NOTHING makes sense for aducating a very normal situation (characters without specific abilities like scent or tremorsense using their very real senses such as smell and touch to help familiarize themselves with their surroundings. There are no skills for them to use (nor would people put sp into them, as they would be used so infrequently), thus a gap in the rules. Your sarcasm adds nothing to the discussion, and makes you look petulent. Thank you for pointing out the ruling that losing your vision inhibits your spot checks, it was a valuable addition to the discussion. If have no further valuable additions, feel free not to post.
Jaxgaret 03-04-07, 10:01 PM	Can spot be used to notice a strange smell? Or difference in texture? Or that something doesn't taste right? Just make it a Survival check. There, problem solved.
FntsyWlkr 03-12-07, 04:36 PM	This is a GREAT question ... Uhm, I would rule the smell as a spot check. (depends on the situation)