Is stone power worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is stone power worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 06:29 PM Is the Feat stone power [from the TOB] realy worth it or is power attack beter? I just want to know because I am playing A dwarf Sword sage who is going for deep stone sentinal.
Dragonteuthis
04-07-07, 07:02 PM Stone Power is a tad more situational than Power Attack. If no-one is hitting you, it's absolutely worthless (unless tied with the Shards of Granite feat). However, in terms of raw survival, it of course completely blows power attack away.

It really boils down to two questions. Are you aiming for a more defensive or aggressive build? And, do you think you'll be taking a beating most of the time?

Given that you're aiming for the deepstone sentinel prestige class, it sounds like you're aiming for a more defensive build, thus Stone Power might be the better choice.
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 07:11 PM It's best for crusaders. It's less useful for the other two martial adept classes, least useful for swordsages.

Observe what happens with a crusader. They get hit. Some of that is absorbed by his Steely Resolve and gives him a boost to his attack and damage rolls -- and because his attack roll is boosted, he can take a hit to his attacks and be fine. If that hit is Stone Power, he gains 10 temporary hit points -- which means that when his Steely Resolve empties, it goes into his temporary hit points instead of to his real hit points. Stone Power essentially gives crusaders DR 10/- so long as they're continuing to attack, but because of how it works, it works alongside normal DR. This is amplified further because of the crusader's healing strikes, which can erase the normal damage that didn't get absorbed by Steely Resolve and function perfectly well with Stone Power. Crusaders with Stone Power Just. Don't. Die.

It's less useful for warblades because they lack Steely Resolve. It's least useful for swordsages because they lack a high attack bonus and really shouldn't be taking all that many hits in the first place compared to the other two.

In the case of a deepstone sentinel, ask yourself what type of weapon you're using. If you're using a one-handed weapon (so you can use a shield), Stone Power is probably better than Power Attack. If it's a two-handed weapon (maximizing your damage output), then Power Attack is probably better. It does, ultimately, come down to offense vs. defense, though.
Dragonteuthis
04-07-07, 07:18 PM If you're using a one-handed weapon (so you can use a shield), Stone Power is probably better than Power Attack. If it's a two-handed weapon (maximizing your damage output), then Power Attack is probably better.

An excellent point that I hadn't even thought of!
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 07:21 PM that is intresting I think I will go with stone power then, with the d8 hit dice I will need this extra little boost, What realy would make it worth it to me is the fact I dont need to hit to gain the benefit, the build is defense oriented but when he does hit with his axe it is going to hurt. now my next question if I gain diciple focus for stone dragon is it so far-fetched to let the weapon focus of it affect my Darven waraxe
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 07:31 PM that is intresting I think I will go with stone power then, with the d8 hit dice I will need this extra little boost, What realy would make it worth it to me is the fact I dont need to hit to gain the benefit, the build is defense oriented but when he does hit with his axe it is going to hurt.Fair enough, although you won't be hurting any more than usual without Power Attack.

You can, however, take both feats and use them together. Nothing stops you from doing so.

I should alert you that the swordsage's low attack bonus prevents you from getting into Deepstone Sentinel until extremely high levels (15-19), so you should consider what you're going to be doing until then. The Deepstone Sentinel really works better for crusaders (and warblades). The swordsage really is more of a monk/rogue-type class than a fighter-type.now my next question if I gain diciple focus for stone dragon is it so far-fetched to let the weapon focus of it affect my Darven waraxeYes. That's a stretch. The waraxe has nothing to do with Stone Dragon's feel. Just take Weapon Focus like every other guy -- or don't, since there's better feats out there and you don't need it for Deepstone Sentinel. Or, you know, play a crusader or warblade, with the higher attack bonus.
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 07:38 PM but is it realy that much of a stretch, look at the picture of the great axe then look at the dwarven waraxe, now read the discriptions the great axe is a large heavy axe and the war axe is a axe to large to use in one hand without training. the great axe anbd Dwarven waraxe are almost the exact same 1d12 for great axe 1d10 for war axe, both *3 critical, and both slashing

Hum I have failed to point out I am wielding the waraxe in two hands which you did point out would make power attack more usefull but no I definitly want the staying power of Stone power and i just might take Shards of granite

About BAB, I would like to know why exactly does the Sword Sage not have a full BAB?
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 07:56 PM but is it realy that much of a stretch, look at the picture of the great axe then look at the dwarven waraxe, now read the discriptions the great axe is a large heavy axe and the war axe is a axe to large to use in one hand without training.the great axe anbd Dwarven waraxe are almost the exact same 1d12 for great axe 1d10 for war axe, both *3 critical, and both slashingIt's not on the list, you don't gain the benefit. Sorry.

I could just as easily say that several great commanders in the past have used longbows, lances, or sabers, but none of those are White Raven preferred weapons. Hum I have failed to point out I am wielding the waraxe in two hands which you did point out would make power attack more usefull but no I definitly want the staying power of Stone power and i just might take Shards of graniteThen you'll want to switch to a Stone Dragon preferred weapon. You'll also probably want heavy armor, which, naturally, the swordsage doesn't provide, so you'll be waiting until level 15 to get it.

Seriously, it's like you're trying to build a rogue who tanks by taking hits. The swordsage just isn't the right class to do this in. I have to ask, why are you using the swordsage? What about that class draws you to it for this character, and why won't one of the other two work here?About BAB, I would like to know why exactly does the Sword Sage not have a full BAB?Because they get the most maneuvers and exclusive access to not one school but THREE (ONLY swordsages have access to Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun, as compared to the ONE school each that is exclusive to crusaders (devoted spirit) and warblades (iron heart)). Desert Wind may not be so hot (pun intended) except for a bit of extra mobility and the occasional damage boost, but Setting Sun enables wonderful defensive and battlefield control options, and Shadow Hand easily has the most ways of inflicting ability damage.Those schools are also the only ones with supernatural maneuvers in them -- in other words, you won't see warblades or crusaders start flying or teleporting or shooting fire out of their asses.

They also have the most maneuvers readied at a single time, exclusive access to Extra Readied Maneuver, and the easiest way to add other ability scores to various stats (they have a built-in Wisdom-to-AC ability, they gain Wisdom as bonus damage on certain discipline strikes, and due to Shadow Hand, they have exclusive access to Shadow Blade, which gives them Dexterity to damage while in a Shadow Hand stance, several of which are pretty darn good).

All of this adds up to a solid class, so they pay for it in other areas -- light armor (countered by Wisdom to AC), lower attack bonus (countered by several maneuvers rendering the opponent flat-footed, being touch attacks, or just granting extra attacks a la flurry), and a slightly smaller hit die.
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 08:02 PM ahh well that does make sense, thanks for your help Tempest Stormwind this cleared up some things. and to answer this

Then you'll want to switch to a Stone Dragon preferred weapon. You'll also probably want heavy armor, which, naturally, the swordsage doesn't provide, so you'll be waiting until level 15 to get it.

Seriously, it's like you're trying to build a rogue who tanks by taking hits. The swordsage just isn't the right class to do this in. I have to ask, why are you using the swordsage? What about that class draws you to it for this character, and why won't one of the other two work here?

well I guess the other 2 martial classes dont appeal to me as much as the sword Sage who might just be my favorite class. and with all those maneuvers he might just be able to be competent

Besides at lvl 2 he has 20 hp [18 con comes in handy] which is almost as much asd the parties fighter at 26, with stone bones on and 4 temporary hit points he can take some hits Especialy with his ac of 20
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 08:34 PM well I guess the other 2 martial classes dont appeal to me as much as the sword Sage who might just be my favorite class. and with all those maneuvers he might just be able to be competent

Besides at lvl 2 he has 20 hp [18 con comes in handy] which is almost as much asd the parties fighter at 26, with stone bones on and 4 temporary hit points he can take some hits Especialy with his ac of 20 Problematic argument.

First, there's a rule error -- Stone Power's penalty is based on your attack bonus, which is 1 lower than usual for the swordsage. You can only get 2 temporary hit points at level 2, and the feat's worthless at level 1.

Second, HP is actually low. If you were a warblade, you'd have 21 HP if you rolled a 1 on your second hit die, and 26 on average. You'd lack Steely Resolve, but you'd still have the higher attack bonus to use Stone Power with. If you were a crusader, you'd have 19 HP if you rolled a 1 on your second Hit Die, and 23 on average, plus you'd have Steely Resolve, which works as shown above, for 5 points, which you could Stone Power for 4. You also have heavy armor, so unless your swordsage's Wisdom modifier + his Dexterity modifier is 5 or higher, the crusader will have a higher armor class (compare chain shirt to plate mail and see why). 23 HP + effective DR 4/- + Crusader healing strikes/stances + higher AC anyway = better endurance.

Third, swordsages may have more maneuvers readied... but they have the WORST method of recovery of all time. It's "Give up your turn and get ONE maneuver back". That means giving up Stone Power as well, since you aren't attacking... and you've got a LOT of maneuvers to recover. If they don't take the Adaptive Style feat, they're actually subpar as far as classes go. WIth the feat, they're passable. On the other hand, crusaders recover their maneuvers at no action cost to them (meaning they can continue to attack and thus Stone Power + Steely Resolve + healing strikes/martial spirit stance), while warblades can continue to lay down the pain (AND use Stone Power!) while recovering their maneuvers on virtue of requiring an attack to do so.

Generally people choose Swordsage because it's the only way to gain access to the maneuvers they want. You want Stone Dragon. That's unique among the nine schools in that all three classes have access to it, so you have a lot of options open to you regarding how you enter the PrC.
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 08:38 PM Wel, I guess that means I am screwed :) oh well. I think ill mull this over maybe I might switch to war blade maybe not it realy doesnt matter to me as long as I can kick some Arse I will be happy. crusader is not an option because I hate the class

I just wish i could make a mix a sword sage with full bab and a better recovery method, but lost acess to the desert wind, and shadow hand diciples also having a d8 hit dice would that be balanced,
navar100
04-07-07, 09:03 PM I've been thinking hypothetically of playing a crusader in the future and how I would go about it. I had been interested in greatsword and power attack because I've never played that way before for a dedicated warrior; it's always has been sword and shield. However, I've also been thinking that for a crusader, sword and shield is a good thing. Some maneuvers can deal that extra damage I wanted from power attack, so I'm not losing out too much not taking power attack with this fighting method. I knew stone power synergized well with steely resolve, but I like it being expplained here.

It's all a personal hypothetical exercise, but at least now if I don't go the greatsword power attack route, I would be very comfortable going sword and shield stone power. If I can get a 17 or 18 ST, I'd probably go greatsword power attack to pile on the damage. If I'm in the 14-16 ST, then I'd go the sword and shield. Only when I finally get a chance to play a crusader will actually become important, but I like now having the comfort zone of willingness to play a sword and shield dedicated warrior again.

Thanks.
:P
Dragonteuthis
04-07-07, 09:14 PM I just wish i could make a mix a sword sage with full bab and a better recovery method, but lost acess to the desert wind, and shadow hand diciples also having a d8 hit dice would that be balanced,

Make a few more changes, switch d8 to d12, and it's called the Warblade.
Eragon_seer
04-07-07, 09:33 PM Ughh and at 20th lvl have 4 stances and 13 maneuvers no thanks thats nothing at all
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 10:44 PM Ughh and at 20th lvl have 4 stances and 13 maneuvers no thanks thats nothing at all

No, it's average. The swordsage is exceptional there. Like I said, the skeleton of the class is weak because they have so many maneuvers.

Navar: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789367
That thread should help you in playing a crusader.
Vaelan
04-07-07, 10:55 PM Second, HP is actually low.
A Fighter using the rules that the game was actually balanced around has an average of 19.5 hitpoints. This is more relevant than the comparisons you have cited because it, presumably, takes into account the opponents that will be encountered, or at least something similar to the opponents that will be encountered.
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 11:12 PM A Fighter using the rules that the game was actually balanced around has an average of 19.5 hitpoints. This is more relevant than the comparisons you have cited because it, presumably, takes into account the opponents that will be encountered, or at least something similar to the opponents that will be encountered.
I meant that, in a comparison between swordsage, crusader, and warblade, he was listing the swordsage's HP as a virtue. In a comparison between classes, the hit die is all that matters -- and the swordsage's d8 is smaller than the crusader's d10 and the warblade's d12. That's all I meant.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 06:29 PM	Is the Feat stone power [from the TOB] realy worth it or is power attack beter? I just want to know because I am playing A dwarf Sword sage who is going for deep stone sentinal.
Dragonteuthis 04-07-07, 07:02 PM	Stone Power is a tad more situational than Power Attack. If no-one is hitting you, it's absolutely worthless (unless tied with the Shards of Granite feat). However, in terms of raw survival, it of course completely blows power attack away. It really boils down to two questions. Are you aiming for a more defensive or aggressive build? And, do you think you'll be taking a beating most of the time? Given that you're aiming for the deepstone sentinel prestige class, it sounds like you're aiming for a more defensive build, thus Stone Power might be the better choice.
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 07:11 PM	It's best for crusaders. It's less useful for the other two martial adept classes, least useful for swordsages. Observe what happens with a crusader. They get hit. Some of that is absorbed by his Steely Resolve and gives him a boost to his attack and damage rolls -- and because his attack roll is boosted, he can take a hit to his attacks and be fine. If that hit is Stone Power, he gains 10 temporary hit points -- which means that when his Steely Resolve empties, it goes into his temporary hit points instead of to his real hit points. Stone Power essentially gives crusaders DR 10/- so long as they're continuing to attack, but because of how it works, it works alongside normal DR. This is amplified further because of the crusader's healing strikes, which can erase the normal damage that didn't get absorbed by Steely Resolve and function perfectly well with Stone Power. Crusaders with Stone Power Just. Don't. Die. It's less useful for warblades because they lack Steely Resolve. It's least useful for swordsages because they lack a high attack bonus and really shouldn't be taking all that many hits in the first place compared to the other two. In the case of a deepstone sentinel, ask yourself what type of weapon you're using. If you're using a one-handed weapon (so you can use a shield), Stone Power is probably better than Power Attack. If it's a two-handed weapon (maximizing your damage output), then Power Attack is probably better. It does, ultimately, come down to offense vs. defense, though.
Dragonteuthis 04-07-07, 07:18 PM	If you're using a one-handed weapon (so you can use a shield), Stone Power is probably better than Power Attack. If it's a two-handed weapon (maximizing your damage output), then Power Attack is probably better. An excellent point that I hadn't even thought of!
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 07:21 PM	that is intresting I think I will go with stone power then, with the d8 hit dice I will need this extra little boost, What realy would make it worth it to me is the fact I dont need to hit to gain the benefit, the build is defense oriented but when he does hit with his axe it is going to hurt. now my next question if I gain diciple focus for stone dragon is it so far-fetched to let the weapon focus of it affect my Darven waraxe
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 07:31 PM	that is intresting I think I will go with stone power then, with the d8 hit dice I will need this extra little boost, What realy would make it worth it to me is the fact I dont need to hit to gain the benefit, the build is defense oriented but when he does hit with his axe it is going to hurt.Fair enough, although you won't be hurting any more than usual without Power Attack. You can, however, take both feats and use them together. Nothing stops you from doing so. I should alert you that the swordsage's low attack bonus prevents you from getting into Deepstone Sentinel until extremely high levels (15-19), so you should consider what you're going to be doing until then. The Deepstone Sentinel really works better for crusaders (and warblades). The swordsage really is more of a monk/rogue-type class than a fighter-type.now my next question if I gain diciple focus for stone dragon is it so far-fetched to let the weapon focus of it affect my Darven waraxeYes. That's a stretch. The waraxe has nothing to do with Stone Dragon's feel. Just take Weapon Focus like every other guy -- or don't, since there's better feats out there and you don't need it for Deepstone Sentinel. Or, you know, play a crusader or warblade, with the higher attack bonus.
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 07:38 PM	but is it realy that much of a stretch, look at the picture of the great axe then look at the dwarven waraxe, now read the discriptions the great axe is a large heavy axe and the war axe is a axe to large to use in one hand without training. the great axe anbd Dwarven waraxe are almost the exact same 1d12 for great axe 1d10 for war axe, both *3 critical, and both slashing Hum I have failed to point out I am wielding the waraxe in two hands which you did point out would make power attack more usefull but no I definitly want the staying power of Stone power and i just might take Shards of granite About BAB, I would like to know why exactly does the Sword Sage not have a full BAB?
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 07:56 PM	but is it realy that much of a stretch, look at the picture of the great axe then look at the dwarven waraxe, now read the discriptions the great axe is a large heavy axe and the war axe is a axe to large to use in one hand without training.the great axe anbd Dwarven waraxe are almost the exact same 1d12 for great axe 1d10 for war axe, both *3 critical, and both slashingIt's not on the list, you don't gain the benefit. Sorry. I could just as easily say that several great commanders in the past have used longbows, lances, or sabers, but none of those are White Raven preferred weapons. Hum I have failed to point out I am wielding the waraxe in two hands which you did point out would make power attack more usefull but no I definitly want the staying power of Stone power and i just might take Shards of graniteThen you'll want to switch to a Stone Dragon preferred weapon. You'll also probably want heavy armor, which, naturally, the swordsage doesn't provide, so you'll be waiting until level 15 to get it. Seriously, it's like you're trying to build a rogue who tanks by taking hits. The swordsage just isn't the right class to do this in. I have to ask, why are you using the swordsage? What about that class draws you to it for this character, and why won't one of the other two work here?About BAB, I would like to know why exactly does the Sword Sage not have a full BAB?Because they get the most maneuvers and exclusive access to not one school but THREE (ONLY swordsages have access to Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun, as compared to the ONE school each that is exclusive to crusaders (devoted spirit) and warblades (iron heart)). Desert Wind may not be so hot (pun intended) except for a bit of extra mobility and the occasional damage boost, but Setting Sun enables wonderful defensive and battlefield control options, and Shadow Hand easily has the most ways of inflicting ability damage.Those schools are also the only ones with supernatural maneuvers in them -- in other words, you won't see warblades or crusaders start flying or teleporting or shooting fire out of their asses. They also have the most maneuvers readied at a single time, exclusive access to Extra Readied Maneuver, and the easiest way to add other ability scores to various stats (they have a built-in Wisdom-to-AC ability, they gain Wisdom as bonus damage on certain discipline strikes, and due to Shadow Hand, they have exclusive access to Shadow Blade, which gives them Dexterity to damage while in a Shadow Hand stance, several of which are pretty darn good). All of this adds up to a solid class, so they pay for it in other areas -- light armor (countered by Wisdom to AC), lower attack bonus (countered by several maneuvers rendering the opponent flat-footed, being touch attacks, or just granting extra attacks a la flurry), and a slightly smaller hit die.
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 08:02 PM	ahh well that does make sense, thanks for your help Tempest Stormwind this cleared up some things. and to answer this Then you'll want to switch to a Stone Dragon preferred weapon. You'll also probably want heavy armor, which, naturally, the swordsage doesn't provide, so you'll be waiting until level 15 to get it. Seriously, it's like you're trying to build a rogue who tanks by taking hits. The swordsage just isn't the right class to do this in. I have to ask, why are you using the swordsage? What about that class draws you to it for this character, and why won't one of the other two work here? well I guess the other 2 martial classes dont appeal to me as much as the sword Sage who might just be my favorite class. and with all those maneuvers he might just be able to be competent Besides at lvl 2 he has 20 hp [18 con comes in handy] which is almost as much asd the parties fighter at 26, with stone bones on and 4 temporary hit points he can take some hits Especialy with his ac of 20
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 08:34 PM	well I guess the other 2 martial classes dont appeal to me as much as the sword Sage who might just be my favorite class. and with all those maneuvers he might just be able to be competent Besides at lvl 2 he has 20 hp [18 con comes in handy] which is almost as much asd the parties fighter at 26, with stone bones on and 4 temporary hit points he can take some hits Especialy with his ac of 20 Problematic argument. First, there's a rule error -- Stone Power's penalty is based on your attack bonus, which is 1 lower than usual for the swordsage. You can only get 2 temporary hit points at level 2, and the feat's worthless at level 1. Second, HP is actually low. If you were a warblade, you'd have 21 HP if you rolled a 1 on your second hit die, and 26 on average. You'd lack Steely Resolve, but you'd still have the higher attack bonus to use Stone Power with. If you were a crusader, you'd have 19 HP if you rolled a 1 on your second Hit Die, and 23 on average, plus you'd have Steely Resolve, which works as shown above, for 5 points, which you could Stone Power for 4. You also have heavy armor, so unless your swordsage's Wisdom modifier + his Dexterity modifier is 5 or higher, the crusader will have a higher armor class (compare chain shirt to plate mail and see why). 23 HP + effective DR 4/- + Crusader healing strikes/stances + higher AC anyway = better endurance. Third, swordsages may have more maneuvers readied... but they have the WORST method of recovery of all time. It's "Give up your turn and get ONE maneuver back". That means giving up Stone Power as well, since you aren't attacking... and you've got a LOT of maneuvers to recover. If they don't take the Adaptive Style feat, they're actually subpar as far as classes go. WIth the feat, they're passable. On the other hand, crusaders recover their maneuvers at no action cost to them (meaning they can continue to attack and thus Stone Power + Steely Resolve + healing strikes/martial spirit stance), while warblades can continue to lay down the pain (AND use Stone Power!) while recovering their maneuvers on virtue of requiring an attack to do so. Generally people choose Swordsage because it's the only way to gain access to the maneuvers they want. You want Stone Dragon. That's unique among the nine schools in that all three classes have access to it, so you have a lot of options open to you regarding how you enter the PrC.
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 08:38 PM	Wel, I guess that means I am screwed :) oh well. I think ill mull this over maybe I might switch to war blade maybe not it realy doesnt matter to me as long as I can kick some Arse I will be happy. crusader is not an option because I hate the class I just wish i could make a mix a sword sage with full bab and a better recovery method, but lost acess to the desert wind, and shadow hand diciples also having a d8 hit dice would that be balanced,
navar100 04-07-07, 09:03 PM	I've been thinking hypothetically of playing a crusader in the future and how I would go about it. I had been interested in greatsword and power attack because I've never played that way before for a dedicated warrior; it's always has been sword and shield. However, I've also been thinking that for a crusader, sword and shield is a good thing. Some maneuvers can deal that extra damage I wanted from power attack, so I'm not losing out too much not taking power attack with this fighting method. I knew stone power synergized well with steely resolve, but I like it being expplained here. It's all a personal hypothetical exercise, but at least now if I don't go the greatsword power attack route, I would be very comfortable going sword and shield stone power. If I can get a 17 or 18 ST, I'd probably go greatsword power attack to pile on the damage. If I'm in the 14-16 ST, then I'd go the sword and shield. Only when I finally get a chance to play a crusader will actually become important, but I like now having the comfort zone of willingness to play a sword and shield dedicated warrior again. Thanks. :P
Dragonteuthis 04-07-07, 09:14 PM	I just wish i could make a mix a sword sage with full bab and a better recovery method, but lost acess to the desert wind, and shadow hand diciples also having a d8 hit dice would that be balanced, Make a few more changes, switch d8 to d12, and it's called the Warblade.
Eragon_seer 04-07-07, 09:33 PM	Ughh and at 20th lvl have 4 stances and 13 maneuvers no thanks thats nothing at all
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 10:44 PM	Ughh and at 20th lvl have 4 stances and 13 maneuvers no thanks thats nothing at all No, it's average. The swordsage is exceptional there. Like I said, the skeleton of the class is weak because they have so many maneuvers. Navar: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789367 That thread should help you in playing a crusader.
Vaelan 04-07-07, 10:55 PM	Second, HP is actually low. A Fighter using the rules that the game was actually balanced around has an average of 19.5 hitpoints. This is more relevant than the comparisons you have cited because it, presumably, takes into account the opponents that will be encountered, or at least something similar to the opponents that will be encountered.
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 11:12 PM	A Fighter using the rules that the game was actually balanced around has an average of 19.5 hitpoints. This is more relevant than the comparisons you have cited because it, presumably, takes into account the opponents that will be encountered, or at least something similar to the opponents that will be encountered. I meant that, in a comparison between swordsage, crusader, and warblade, he was listing the swordsage's HP as a virtue. In a comparison between classes, the hit die is all that matters -- and the swordsage's d8 is smaller than the crusader's d10 and the warblade's d12. That's all I meant.