Is the Arcane Disciple feat really this awesome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is the Arcane Disciple feat really this awesome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TaiSharShaidar
06-15-07, 03:51 AM I was reading over the description fro the arcane disciple feat, honestly wondering if I should use it for my sorcerer, when something in the text caught my attention. The feat states that the spells from one domain are added to your class list, for a sorcerer this causes a sometimes painful choice, between the newly acquired divine selection and the old sorcerer/wizard spells.

There is, however, a class that knows all the spells on his class list: the Warmage. Now when you combine arcane devotee with the warmage you get up to 9 new spells to play with. (Always assuming you can get to 19 wisdom by the time you reach 18Th CL.)

Yes you are “stuck” with the domains of one deity, or if you have a generous DM in the Eberron Campaign setting you could select an entire pantheon, and you have to wait till 5th level to have the required ranks in knowledge religion. (Or take a feat to make it an in class skill). But compared to the benefits of allowing your warmage greater versatility in his spellcasting, the requirements are minimal.

Just my take on this feat, any responses would be welcome.
Terraneaux
06-15-07, 04:03 AM First of all, Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for wizards, as are all knowledge skills.

This feat is kind of subpar for sorceres *except* when you use it to grab the spell domain, which grants access to the Anyspell spell, or alternatively grab Miracle as a ninth level domain spell to mimic all of the spells you didn't take on your class list. But you need to keep that wisdom up.
TaiSharShaidar
06-15-07, 04:09 AM First of all, Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for wizards, as are all knowledge skills.

One quick thing, I specifically mentioned the warmage class which has a much more limited selection of knowledge feats then the wizard.
Grogmir
06-15-07, 04:21 AM The big factor stopping it being awesome is that you can only cast one spell of each level per day.

Couple that with the Wis requirement as you say and Nah don't think its that awesome. Although my Ulimtate Magus wizard does have it for the healing domain.

Choosing the Healing domain is probably the best reason to get this feat IMO.

Grogmir.
arjomanes
06-16-07, 12:29 AM I think it would also be good for the beguiler who can also cast off his full list like the warmage. This could be a really great way for some of these ultra-specialized classes to get more versatility. If I weren't curently playing in a no-cleric campaign, my beguiler would probably grab this feat.
Tempest Stormwind
06-16-07, 01:06 AM It's also very good for shadowcraft illusionists. Even if they lack the Wisdom needed to cast Miracle, the feat adds it to their personal spell list, and it's Evocation, meaning the shadowcraft mage can spontaneously create an illusory miracle that might be more real than the real thing, without an XP cost.
Evicmar
06-16-07, 07:36 AM I'm a little confused. The feat states that you cast the domain spells as arcane. Would you not need a 19 intelligence as a wizard or 19 charisma as a sorc to do this?
Ainamacar
06-16-07, 03:06 PM The relevant part.

You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell’s level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
tarkin
06-16-07, 04:12 PM 1. Get an item of +6 wisdom.

2. This feat is not fantastic for people looking to get healing spells.

3. This feat IS fantastic if you want to get Domain only spells. Some of them are very good. A Domain that has a lot of them is well worth this feat.

Consider things like the City, Celestial, Spider, Darkness, Watery Death, Demon, Pestilence, etc.
InkBlot
06-17-07, 02:10 PM This feat is not fantastic for people looking to get healing spells.
How so? I don't know of any other way a wizard can get cure x wounds, without multiclassing into another caster class.
Tempest Stormwind
06-17-07, 02:20 PM How so? I don't know of any other way a wizard can get cure x wounds, without multiclassing into another caster class.

Extra Spell.

Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists.
Bedevere
06-17-07, 03:56 PM Combine this feat with the 'spontaneous healer' feat. (possibly slightly different name) that allows you to spontaneously swap out for healing spells, 1/day per wisdom mod.

It's a decent feat on its own. Paired with this, a wizard replaces the party healer, assuming a sensible party...
Ertai Planeswalker
06-17-07, 05:07 PM Extra Spell.

Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists.
My group always thought it only allows you to select a spell from your own class list. I can't even remember the book it's from, do you have any 'evidence' that you can take any spell you want? Because than my sorcerers will always have Extra Spell: Anyspell. Period.
Pentagram
06-17-07, 06:48 PM Extra Spell is a feat from Complete Arcane and nothing in the text of the feat says anything about class lists. I do think your character is supposed to choose a new spell from his/her actual spell list, but the feat doesn't actually say so, although the text about wizards in the feat descriptions might be interpreted as stating that your character could choose any kind of spell.

EXTRA SPELL
You learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn a new spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can cast.
Tempest Stormwind
06-17-07, 07:44 PM My group always thought it only allows you to select a spell from your own class list. I can't even remember the book it's from, do you have any 'evidence' that you can take any spell you want? Because than my sorcerers will always have Extra Spell: Anyspell. Period.

Really? Your sorcerer has domain slots and can prepare spells?

Anyspell doesn't actually work for characters without domain slots due to the way it works. It's not as severe as you think.
Nom
06-17-07, 08:02 PM Extra Spell.

Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists.This old discussion. An ability that explicitly allows an exception to normal game rules doesn't generalise to an ability that does not unless an explicit connection is made between the abilities. Especially in light of explict advice to the contrary (ie FAQ).

Yes, the FAQ has on occasion explicitly contradicted the rules, but in this case all it does is restate that the feat doesn't grant a rules exception that it doesn't say it grants.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TaiSharShaidar 06-15-07, 03:51 AM	I was reading over the description fro the arcane disciple feat, honestly wondering if I should use it for my sorcerer, when something in the text caught my attention. The feat states that the spells from one domain are added to your class list, for a sorcerer this causes a sometimes painful choice, between the newly acquired divine selection and the old sorcerer/wizard spells. There is, however, a class that knows all the spells on his class list: the Warmage. Now when you combine arcane devotee with the warmage you get up to 9 new spells to play with. (Always assuming you can get to 19 wisdom by the time you reach 18Th CL.) Yes you are “stuck” with the domains of one deity, or if you have a generous DM in the Eberron Campaign setting you could select an entire pantheon, and you have to wait till 5th level to have the required ranks in knowledge religion. (Or take a feat to make it an in class skill). But compared to the benefits of allowing your warmage greater versatility in his spellcasting, the requirements are minimal. Just my take on this feat, any responses would be welcome.
Terraneaux 06-15-07, 04:03 AM	First of all, Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for wizards, as are all knowledge skills. This feat is kind of subpar for sorceres except when you use it to grab the spell domain, which grants access to the Anyspell spell, or alternatively grab Miracle as a ninth level domain spell to mimic all of the spells you didn't take on your class list. But you need to keep that wisdom up.
TaiSharShaidar 06-15-07, 04:09 AM	First of all, Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for wizards, as are all knowledge skills. One quick thing, I specifically mentioned the warmage class which has a much more limited selection of knowledge feats then the wizard.
Grogmir 06-15-07, 04:21 AM	The big factor stopping it being awesome is that you can only cast one spell of each level per day. Couple that with the Wis requirement as you say and Nah don't think its that awesome. Although my Ulimtate Magus wizard does have it for the healing domain. Choosing the Healing domain is probably the best reason to get this feat IMO. Grogmir.
arjomanes 06-16-07, 12:29 AM	I think it would also be good for the beguiler who can also cast off his full list like the warmage. This could be a really great way for some of these ultra-specialized classes to get more versatility. If I weren't curently playing in a no-cleric campaign, my beguiler would probably grab this feat.
Tempest Stormwind 06-16-07, 01:06 AM	It's also very good for shadowcraft illusionists. Even if they lack the Wisdom needed to cast Miracle, the feat adds it to their personal spell list, and it's Evocation, meaning the shadowcraft mage can spontaneously create an illusory miracle that might be more real than the real thing, without an XP cost.
Evicmar 06-16-07, 07:36 AM	I'm a little confused. The feat states that you cast the domain spells as arcane. Would you not need a 19 intelligence as a wizard or 19 charisma as a sorc to do this?
Ainamacar 06-16-07, 03:06 PM	The relevant part. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell’s level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
tarkin 06-16-07, 04:12 PM	1. Get an item of +6 wisdom. 2. This feat is not fantastic for people looking to get healing spells. 3. This feat IS fantastic if you want to get Domain only spells. Some of them are very good. A Domain that has a lot of them is well worth this feat. Consider things like the City, Celestial, Spider, Darkness, Watery Death, Demon, Pestilence, etc.
InkBlot 06-17-07, 02:10 PM	This feat is not fantastic for people looking to get healing spells. How so? I don't know of any other way a wizard can get cure x wounds, without multiclassing into another caster class.
Tempest Stormwind 06-17-07, 02:20 PM	How so? I don't know of any other way a wizard can get cure x wounds, without multiclassing into another caster class. Extra Spell. Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists.
Bedevere 06-17-07, 03:56 PM	Combine this feat with the 'spontaneous healer' feat. (possibly slightly different name) that allows you to spontaneously swap out for healing spells, 1/day per wisdom mod. It's a decent feat on its own. Paired with this, a wizard replaces the party healer, assuming a sensible party...
Ertai Planeswalker 06-17-07, 05:07 PM	Extra Spell. Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists. My group always thought it only allows you to select a spell from your own class list. I can't even remember the book it's from, do you have any 'evidence' that you can take any spell you want? Because than my sorcerers will always have Extra Spell: Anyspell. Period.
Pentagram 06-17-07, 06:48 PM	Extra Spell is a feat from Complete Arcane and nothing in the text of the feat says anything about class lists. I do think your character is supposed to choose a new spell from his/her actual spell list, but the feat doesn't actually say so, although the text about wizards in the feat descriptions might be interpreted as stating that your character could choose any kind of spell. EXTRA SPELL You learn an additional spell. Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd. Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn a new spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can cast.
Tempest Stormwind 06-17-07, 07:44 PM	My group always thought it only allows you to select a spell from your own class list. I can't even remember the book it's from, do you have any 'evidence' that you can take any spell you want? Because than my sorcerers will always have Extra Spell: Anyspell. Period. Really? Your sorcerer has domain slots and can prepare spells? Anyspell doesn't actually work for characters without domain slots due to the way it works. It's not as severe as you think.
Nom 06-17-07, 08:02 PM	Extra Spell. Verbatim, and by precedent (Expanded Knowledge), it doesn't distinguish between class lists.This old discussion. An ability that explicitly allows an exception to normal game rules doesn't generalise to an ability that does not unless an explicit connection is made between the abilities. Especially in light of explict advice to the contrary (ie FAQ). Yes, the FAQ has on occasion explicitly contradicted the rules, but in this case all it does is restate that the feat doesn't grant a rules exception that it doesn't say it grants.