Is the Drow "hit and run" ability (from Drow of the Underdark) insane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is the Drow "hit and run" ability (from Drow of the Underdark) insane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
midnight42
10-29-07, 03:58 PM I saw this the other day; I apologize for not remembering the exact details, but the feat is from Drow of the Underdark:
Hit-and-run style:
Penalty: May only be taken at 1st level as a fighter; you lose medium armor, heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.
Advantage: +2 to initiative rolls, plus: Apply your Dex bonus as a competence bonus on all damage rolls against flat-footed targets within 30'.

I don't recall whether this also replaces your first-level bonus feat. In any case: Even if it does replace your first-level bonus feat, this ability seems crazy to me. Just apply Greater Invisibility to a Drow melee fighter, and bingo--this fighter gets his Dex bonus to damage for EVERY ATTACK against EVERY OPPONENT, except those who can see invisible. Note that the damage does apply against targets immune to critical hits/sneak attack damage.

Am I missing something, or is this ability insane? Offhand, my suggestions to limit this would be one of these:
A) The Dex damage only applies against a particular opponent as long as that opponent has not yet acted in this combat. (I.e. damage applies only during the surprise round (if applicable) and before the opponent's init on the first round.)
B) The Dex damage may only be used once per opponent per combat.
C) The Dex damage may only be used once per round (typically during your first attack that round).

What do people think?
Egres
10-29-07, 04:45 PM If this feat seems insane to you, I can't imagine what you think about sneak attacks.

Not to mention that being attacked by an invisible attacker doesn't make you flat footed, but it only makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC.
j3st3r
10-29-07, 05:13 PM The drow fighter alternative class feature Hit-and-Run Tactics isn't overpowered at all, IMHO.

You lose proficiency with heavy armors and tower shields and you can't get them via multiclassing. You gain +2 to ini, and dex bonus (if any) to damage vs. target within 30' and that is flat-footed.

Actually that sounds rather poor to me, since to benefit the most from the trade off, you have to have high dex and be able effectively caught your opponent flat-footed, and that's usually only once per encaunter.
IdleAltruism
10-29-07, 05:27 PM Well first off you must be a drow fighter to gain the benefit. This is already a decent penalty, LA+2 and -2 con isn't exactly healthy for a fighter. This is a nice boost for drow, gives them some decent abilities and some interesting multi-classing options.

This alternate class feature is just powerful enough to make it worthwhile and possibly encourage players to play drow.
Jaxgaret
10-29-07, 05:32 PM I just looked in the Underdark book, I couldn't find this feat. I'm guessing Drow of the Underdark is a separate book?

On the feat itself: this feat is great for Fighters who don't want to clunk around in full plate. That said, not clunking around in full plate is suboptimal as a normal Fighter, so this feat is definitely a good design idea.

But I don't think it's overpowered, at all. Basically, what Jester and Egres said I agree with.

One more thing: is it Drow-only? If so, it's underpowered, because Drow make terrible Fighters.
Nephlite
10-29-07, 05:38 PM If this feat seems insane to you, I can't imagine what you think about sneak attacks.

Not to mention that being attacked by an invisible attacker doesn't make you flat footed, but it only makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

He could have the Party Rogue use Grease, but than again Fighters can't balance. Grease makes target balance thus flatfooted without 5 ranks.
midnight42
10-29-07, 05:38 PM Thank you all for your points. I had not read the fine print: "flat-footed" and "denied DEX bonus to AC" are not the same thing--"flat-footed" means specifically that you have not yet acted in the combat.

Given that, I agree that this ability is perfectly reasonable.

As a side note, I do not find sneak attack unbalanced, even though a Greater-Invisible'd rogue does get sneak attack for every attack. Points:
1) Sneak attack is a feature that rogues are _supposed_ to get; this Dex-to-damage ability is a feature fighters do _not_ normally get.
2) Sneak attack is ridiculously easy to counter. One blur or displacement spell ruins it (since sneak attack doesn't apply if you have a miss chance due to concealment), and you can't use it against undead/constructs/etc. Plus, heavy-fortification armor can be used to make _any_ target immune to sneak attack, although it is a bit pricey.

In any case, though, I withdraw my question about all this, due to my misreading of flat-footed.

Final point: For Drow specifically, this ability does seem very useful--given their Dex bonus, most Drow fighters would go the high-Dex route to fighting anyway.
StruckingFuggle
10-29-07, 05:58 PM Thank you all for your points. I had not read the fine print: "flat-footed" and "denied DEX bonus to AC" are not the same thing--"flat-footed" means specifically that you have not yet acted in the combat.

However, there are a few conditions that will make someone flat-footed even after they've acted.
solbergb
10-30-07, 12:59 PM I saw this the other day; I apologize for not remembering the exact details, but the feat is from Drow of the Underdark:
Hit-and-run style:
Penalty: May only be taken at 1st level as a fighter; you lose medium armor, heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.
Advantage: +2 to initiative rolls, plus: Apply your Dex bonus as a competence bonus on all damage rolls against flat-footed targets within 30'.

I don't recall whether this also replaces your first-level bonus feat. In any case: Even if it does replace your first-level bonus feat, this ability seems crazy to me. Just apply Greater Invisibility to a Drow melee fighter,

Frankly drow melee fighters need all the help they can get. They have a huge LA and a con penalty which means they go down much faster than, say, a human melee fighter. Having them do a little more damage before they get swatted is ok by me.
Egres
10-30-07, 05:34 PM He could have the Party Rogue use Grease, but than again Fighters can't balance. Grease makes target balance thus flatfooted without 5 ranks.
And?
The_sleeper1
10-30-07, 08:26 PM I think that this ability is best used for an NPC drow, they are most likely to get the first round of sneak damage in because usualy a group of NPC drow have a lot better sneak on average than a randome group of PC's meaning that thye are more likely able to sneak up on a group of PC's getting a suprise round and then there actions before anyone be non flat footed.

it fits in nicely with the drow weapons and armor .... pumps them up makeing a harder fight but stops the PC's from getting rich.
Templario
10-31-07, 09:03 PM A plain drow fighter with this is a poor combatant nonetheless.

A Fighter 1/X Rogue drow can use it better... but he/she would be 2 levels behind anyway =/
Nephlite
10-31-07, 10:14 PM And?

Flatfooted is required for the OP's thing to work, duh.
Egres
11-01-07, 06:22 AM Flatfooted is required for the OP's thing to work, duh.

And?

The feat is weak nonetheless.
1 ton ghost
11-02-07, 01:07 PM target must be flat-footed, not just lose Dex bonus?
eh, then that changes things. it's a 1st strike class feature (not a feat, right?) then.
most drow, actually, most elves in general prefer ranged.
given their killer darkvision @ 120ft, predilection to poison, all manner of hard cover in subterranean environs, "painted" targets (faerie fire, etc) and so forth, i imagine most drow would be hard pressed to get into the thick of melee. that's what slaves are for anyway.
Mojo_Rat
11-02-07, 03:08 PM The ability does not anywhere specify melee is required for the alternative class feature to work.

It struck me as a nice ability when in the first round all the drow fightr hand crossbows are doing 1-4+ X where X is the dex damage and they are more likely to win initative.
Nephlite
11-02-07, 03:31 PM The ability does not anywhere specify melee is required for the alternative class feature to work.

It struck me as a nice ability when in the first round all the drow fightr hand crossbows are doing 1-4+ X where X is the dex damage and they are more likely to win initative.

But Crossbow Sniper feat allows that already.
StruckingFuggle
11-02-07, 08:27 PM Is there any reason they wouldn't stack?
1 ton ghost
11-02-07, 08:56 PM Is there any reason they wouldn't stack?

that is a truly scary venture, particularly when you have ample Cat's Grace on tap
Arco Versipellis
11-04-07, 12:38 AM No, it won't stack with rossbows. You have to be flanking. It would stack with the similar warblad ability that uses intelligence.

I liked it when I saw it, because I like high dexterity characters and it makes a level dip into fighter a better choice, especially since it dosn't require you to give up a feat. Also, note that you can get those proficiencies by taking the feats.

However, it is drow only and I have never used it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
midnight42 10-29-07, 03:58 PM	I saw this the other day; I apologize for not remembering the exact details, but the feat is from Drow of the Underdark: Hit-and-run style: Penalty: May only be taken at 1st level as a fighter; you lose medium armor, heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies. Advantage: +2 to initiative rolls, plus: Apply your Dex bonus as a competence bonus on all damage rolls against flat-footed targets within 30'. I don't recall whether this also replaces your first-level bonus feat. In any case: Even if it does replace your first-level bonus feat, this ability seems crazy to me. Just apply Greater Invisibility to a Drow melee fighter, and bingo--this fighter gets his Dex bonus to damage for EVERY ATTACK against EVERY OPPONENT, except those who can see invisible. Note that the damage does apply against targets immune to critical hits/sneak attack damage. Am I missing something, or is this ability insane? Offhand, my suggestions to limit this would be one of these: A) The Dex damage only applies against a particular opponent as long as that opponent has not yet acted in this combat. (I.e. damage applies only during the surprise round (if applicable) and before the opponent's init on the first round.) B) The Dex damage may only be used once per opponent per combat. C) The Dex damage may only be used once per round (typically during your first attack that round). What do people think?
Egres 10-29-07, 04:45 PM	If this feat seems insane to you, I can't imagine what you think about sneak attacks. Not to mention that being attacked by an invisible attacker doesn't make you flat footed, but it only makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC.
j3st3r 10-29-07, 05:13 PM	The drow fighter alternative class feature Hit-and-Run Tactics isn't overpowered at all, IMHO. You lose proficiency with heavy armors and tower shields and you can't get them via multiclassing. You gain +2 to ini, and dex bonus (if any) to damage vs. target within 30' and that is flat-footed. Actually that sounds rather poor to me, since to benefit the most from the trade off, you have to have high dex and be able effectively caught your opponent flat-footed, and that's usually only once per encaunter.
IdleAltruism 10-29-07, 05:27 PM	Well first off you must be a drow fighter to gain the benefit. This is already a decent penalty, LA+2 and -2 con isn't exactly healthy for a fighter. This is a nice boost for drow, gives them some decent abilities and some interesting multi-classing options. This alternate class feature is just powerful enough to make it worthwhile and possibly encourage players to play drow.
Jaxgaret 10-29-07, 05:32 PM	I just looked in the Underdark book, I couldn't find this feat. I'm guessing Drow of the Underdark is a separate book? On the feat itself: this feat is great for Fighters who don't want to clunk around in full plate. That said, not clunking around in full plate is suboptimal as a normal Fighter, so this feat is definitely a good design idea. But I don't think it's overpowered, at all. Basically, what Jester and Egres said I agree with. One more thing: is it Drow-only? If so, it's underpowered, because Drow make terrible Fighters.
Nephlite 10-29-07, 05:38 PM	If this feat seems insane to you, I can't imagine what you think about sneak attacks. Not to mention that being attacked by an invisible attacker doesn't make you flat footed, but it only makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC. He could have the Party Rogue use Grease, but than again Fighters can't balance. Grease makes target balance thus flatfooted without 5 ranks.
midnight42 10-29-07, 05:38 PM	Thank you all for your points. I had not read the fine print: "flat-footed" and "denied DEX bonus to AC" are not the same thing--"flat-footed" means specifically that you have not yet acted in the combat. Given that, I agree that this ability is perfectly reasonable. As a side note, I do not find sneak attack unbalanced, even though a Greater-Invisible'd rogue does get sneak attack for every attack. Points: 1) Sneak attack is a feature that rogues are _supposed_ to get; this Dex-to-damage ability is a feature fighters do _not_ normally get. 2) Sneak attack is ridiculously easy to counter. One blur or displacement spell ruins it (since sneak attack doesn't apply if you have a miss chance due to concealment), and you can't use it against undead/constructs/etc. Plus, heavy-fortification armor can be used to make _any_ target immune to sneak attack, although it is a bit pricey. In any case, though, I withdraw my question about all this, due to my misreading of flat-footed. Final point: For Drow specifically, this ability does seem very useful--given their Dex bonus, most Drow fighters would go the high-Dex route to fighting anyway.
StruckingFuggle 10-29-07, 05:58 PM	Thank you all for your points. I had not read the fine print: "flat-footed" and "denied DEX bonus to AC" are not the same thing--"flat-footed" means specifically that you have not yet acted in the combat. However, there are a few conditions that will make someone flat-footed even after they've acted.
solbergb 10-30-07, 12:59 PM	I saw this the other day; I apologize for not remembering the exact details, but the feat is from Drow of the Underdark: Hit-and-run style: Penalty: May only be taken at 1st level as a fighter; you lose medium armor, heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies. Advantage: +2 to initiative rolls, plus: Apply your Dex bonus as a competence bonus on all damage rolls against flat-footed targets within 30'. I don't recall whether this also replaces your first-level bonus feat. In any case: Even if it does replace your first-level bonus feat, this ability seems crazy to me. Just apply Greater Invisibility to a Drow melee fighter, Frankly drow melee fighters need all the help they can get. They have a huge LA and a con penalty which means they go down much faster than, say, a human melee fighter. Having them do a little more damage before they get swatted is ok by me.
Egres 10-30-07, 05:34 PM	He could have the Party Rogue use Grease, but than again Fighters can't balance. Grease makes target balance thus flatfooted without 5 ranks. And?
The_sleeper1 10-30-07, 08:26 PM	I think that this ability is best used for an NPC drow, they are most likely to get the first round of sneak damage in because usualy a group of NPC drow have a lot better sneak on average than a randome group of PC's meaning that thye are more likely able to sneak up on a group of PC's getting a suprise round and then there actions before anyone be non flat footed. it fits in nicely with the drow weapons and armor .... pumps them up makeing a harder fight but stops the PC's from getting rich.
Templario 10-31-07, 09:03 PM	A plain drow fighter with this is a poor combatant nonetheless. A Fighter 1/X Rogue drow can use it better... but he/she would be 2 levels behind anyway =/
Nephlite 10-31-07, 10:14 PM	And? Flatfooted is required for the OP's thing to work, duh.
Egres 11-01-07, 06:22 AM	Flatfooted is required for the OP's thing to work, duh. And? The feat is weak nonetheless.
1 ton ghost 11-02-07, 01:07 PM	target must be flat-footed, not just lose Dex bonus? eh, then that changes things. it's a 1st strike class feature (not a feat, right?) then. most drow, actually, most elves in general prefer ranged. given their killer darkvision @ 120ft, predilection to poison, all manner of hard cover in subterranean environs, "painted" targets (faerie fire, etc) and so forth, i imagine most drow would be hard pressed to get into the thick of melee. that's what slaves are for anyway.
Mojo_Rat 11-02-07, 03:08 PM	The ability does not anywhere specify melee is required for the alternative class feature to work. It struck me as a nice ability when in the first round all the drow fightr hand crossbows are doing 1-4+ X where X is the dex damage and they are more likely to win initative.
Nephlite 11-02-07, 03:31 PM	The ability does not anywhere specify melee is required for the alternative class feature to work. It struck me as a nice ability when in the first round all the drow fightr hand crossbows are doing 1-4+ X where X is the dex damage and they are more likely to win initative. But Crossbow Sniper feat allows that already.
StruckingFuggle 11-02-07, 08:27 PM	Is there any reason they wouldn't stack?
1 ton ghost 11-02-07, 08:56 PM	Is there any reason they wouldn't stack? that is a truly scary venture, particularly when you have ample Cat's Grace on tap
Arco Versipellis 11-04-07, 12:38 AM	No, it won't stack with rossbows. You have to be flanking. It would stack with the similar warblad ability that uses intelligence. I liked it when I saw it, because I like high dexterity characters and it makes a level dip into fighter a better choice, especially since it dosn't require you to give up a feat. Also, note that you can get those proficiencies by taking the feats. However, it is drow only and I have never used it.