Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 11-19-07, 07:38 AM	I currently have a cohort who will soon have a strength score through the roof, but his charisma will be in the negatives. Is there any way of using your strength score, instead of your charisma score, for intimidate checks? I believe I saw something about this a while ago, but I am not sure. Thanks in advance for any help.
Jovknee 11-19-07, 07:46 AM	I've always questioned this myself. I think they chose Cha for the modifier to make yourself convincing when you are bending the steel bar in front of them. However I remember reading in one of the books that under certain circumstances a different stat modifier should be used in different situations. Unfortunately it was a long time ago, and I don't remember where I read that.
Bahumut 11-19-07, 08:39 AM	i've always ruled that an appropriate show of how they could break the target in half would make Str the modifying stat for that check. Charisma is more of the "you got a pretty wife jim...star football son, cheerleader daughter...it'd be a shame if something happened to them, you know?" kind of threat.
runestar 11-19-07, 08:46 AM	The fearsome gaze barb variant from dragon349 lets you use your str mod on intimidate checks, IIRC.
The_Shaman 11-19-07, 08:50 AM	i've always ruled that an appropriate show of how they could break the target in half would make Str the modifying stat for that check. Charisma is more of the "you got a pretty wife jim...star football son, cheerleader daughter...it'd be a shame if something happened to them, you know?" kind of threat. I think charisma is the feeling of overall presence. Low charisma means, the way I understand it, that you're a bit of an introvert and can't apply yourself so much to the world. So whether you do it by a show of force or words, charisma affects how much you get in it and thus, how convincingly you do it. Кind of like with "pro" wrestling. Of course, you can use a strength check and see if they get the message. It's not as effective as a proper intimidate check, but a smart person will get the idea.
Orenmir 11-19-07, 10:59 AM	I've often wondered why Cha was used for Intimidate too. I like Jovknee's explaination (the part about "being convincing"). In D&D, I don't think Str has much to do with intimidating. Size does -- which is why it makes perfect sense to add +4 for every size category bigger than your opponent you are. So many characters wear armor and cloaks and other clothing -- it's hard to see how much "muscle" someone has, unless you're in a hot environment and not wearing armor. Now, just because you have low Cha shouldn't mean you can't scare people with a good battle yell. High Cha is something that makes people drawn to you; a good battle yell is something that should make people repel you. I think it would take a good deal of Wis to learn how to make your battle yell most effective. Yet, there are other ways to intimidate you opponent than just screaming and grunting at them. It could be an intense stare, or even taunting words (if your opponent can understand you) -- in these cases, Cha does make sense as a modifier.
Daisuke1 11-19-07, 11:26 AM	You know this topic comes up so much there should be a stiky for it. :) The point of using Charisma for Intimidate is this: No matter how big or strong a character is, that does not automatically make people feel intimidated by them. It doesn't matter how strong a character is if they can't convince people that they will make good on the threats they are making. Now I don't disagree that an appropriate show of force will give a circumstance bonus to the check. But a show of force alone might just drive the target of the Intimidate check to run straight to the city guard or even attack the character.
Egres 11-19-07, 11:48 AM	Let me quote an old post from a guy who knows his D&D: Charisma is not a 'rudeness-elegance' scale. A charisma of 2 doesn't mean you're rude and crude. It means you're unnoticeable. You have the personality of a wet towel. A high-int, 2 cha character will be the guy who's in your class, who you never notice or talk to, who one day raises his hand and tonelessly answers a question absolutely brilliantly. But you don't pay any attention to what he's saying because he's just so boring. The error people make is assuming that their 5 cha half-orc is loud, rude, and ticks everyone off. That's not true. That's a high Charisma effect, with him deliberately failing Diplomacy checks every chance he gets. High charisma gets you noticed. Low charisma means you're wallpaper. That's the biggest flaw people make when saying "Why does charisma affect Intimidate? My 5 cha 20 str half-orc should be hella intimidating!" No, he shouldn't. He's the slack-jawed grunt nobody pays attention to. When he says "You talkin' to me, runt?" nobody pays any attention, unless it's to give him an irritated glance for intruding on the conversation. This is why certain critters, like illithids, have high Charismas despite being psychotically brutal and ugly. Because when an illithid speaks, people notice. Charisma is force of personality, not social ability.
Dog_O_War 11-19-07, 12:23 PM	Some people are just not intimidated by size. Besides, with the size thing, that would make playing smaller races a huge disadvantage, as most everything has size over them. I don't think it is a bad idea though, having size play a part, but skill often will reinforce how suseptable a person is to intimidation. I think that a show of strength can give cause for intimidation, such as performing said feat, and then gaining a circumstance bonus to the skill. Or you can rule that under certain situations he can roll his intimidate check with his strength mod. (see DMG for rolling skills for different abilities). I wouldn't allow it every time though; soon people will be bringing arguements as to why they should be allowed to use their most prevailant stat for other skills.
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 12:54 PM	In D&D, I don't think Str has much to do with intimidating. Size does -- which is why it makes perfect sense to add +4 for every size category bigger than your opponent you are. This would seem highly circumstantial, based upon individual characters' mental processes and fears.
ogg205 11-19-07, 02:11 PM	Indeed, I, too, have questioned whether it should be Strength, but there is an intelligible counter to this- it is the ability to make the person THINK you are going to torture and make them suffer in ways that even their imagination can't comprehend. This, I believe, is why WOC picked CHA instead of STR for their choice of ability modifier. It is debated that CHA is almost universally (Except in the circumstance that a class requires CHA) useless except in rp situations and thus has no place in the "kick in the door" sort of campaign.
Orenmir 11-19-07, 03:01 PM	This would seem highly circumstantial, based upon individual characters' mental processes and fears. Well, except that it follows the RAW: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#intimidate Special: You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a –4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target.
etraikov 11-19-07, 03:19 PM	Just remember the Superman / Batman analogy. Superman has a strength score of like 845389. Batman does not. However, Batman is a lot better at intimidating people into doing what he wants. Sure, Superman can pick up the building next to you and rip it apart with his bare hands, but doing that isn't gonna scare the guy into telling you what you need to know.
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 04:39 PM	Well, except that it follows the RAW: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#intimidate Special: You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a –4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target. Wow, I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. That's ridiculously stupid.
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 04:41 PM	Just remember the Superman / Batman analogy. Superman has a strength score of like 845389. Batman does not. However, Batman is a lot better at intimidating people into doing what he wants. Sure, Superman can pick up the building next to you and rip it apart with his bare hands, but doing that isn't gonna scare the guy into telling you what you need to know. Batman has max Intimidate ranks, and he has every feat that grants a bonus to Intimidate for free. Superman has Intimidate as a cross class skill.
Orenmir 11-19-07, 05:06 PM	Wow, I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. That's ridiculously stupid. Just curious... Why do you think it's stupid? Should a 6' tall humanoid be equally afraid of a 30' giant and a 3' halfling? With the exception of hieght, these races are nearly identical. Instinctually, it just makes sense to fear something that much bigger than you. For example, I'd be more intimidated by a lion than a fox if I were hunting either.
aelryinth 11-19-07, 05:21 PM	Batman has max Intimidate ranks, and he has every feat that grants a bonus to Intimidate for free. Superman has Intimidate as a cross class skill. There's also the fact that you never, ever see Superman really trying to make an Intimidate check. And when he does, it works. His Str score has one Hell of a mod to it. ===Aelryinth
BW0222 11-19-07, 07:16 PM	celestialkin, You can always just try doing something which requires a fair amount of strength and see if your DM gives you a circumstance bonus for it. Perhaps pushing over a tree might make some dryad's afraid? However, in most cases intimidate has little to do with strength. You aren't going to impress a troll, giant, or dragon by tearing a book in half. Even a commoner might just decide that lying, pretending to do what you want, or running away screaming for the guard is a better thing to do. Intimidate isn't torchure. It isn't treatening him with physical force. It is convincing him that his best choice of action is to do what you say. For example, you want the name of someone a cleric was with in the bar last night. A half-orc walks up to the bar keep, slams his fist on the bar (breaking the wooden top) and says "Who was Father Kai with last night." Now... the barkeep, could just lie or come back with "Get out. You lay a hand on me and you know you'll be in jail for six months. There are witnesses and I know the captain of the watch." Alternately, a bard comes up to the barkeep and says, "Say... not a bad crowd. Now, all I want is the name of the person Father Kai was with last night? But, if you don't know, our half-orc friend there has a keg of dwarven ale and I might decide to give away free samples outside all night and perhaps do some singing and magic tricks. I figure we can keep this place empty the entire night." Now, that is a threat which the barkeep likely can't ignore. It is easy to carry out and there isn't much he can do about it. Example 2, a group of low-level PCs encounter a red dragon. The half-orc breaks open a chest and says, "Let us go or I'll break your lizard's neck." vs. the bard saying "Well, I know you can kill us, but since we've left word we are looking for a dragon's den, you know they'll be be no end of folks coming along if we don't return. I'm sure you could kill them all, but that means saying in this cave all the time or else your treasure and eggs will be stolen. However, if you just let us go, then we could just say we didn't see anything and you wouldn't have to worry about a horde of treasure-crazed folks invading your cave all day and night." Shear strength is rarely going frighten folks who think they are more powerful than you (and in many cases it makes them more confident as they know what tactics to use against you). In addition, fear is a terrible motivator -- it often encourages folks to lie, run, or call for help.
Tuah 11-19-07, 07:35 PM	Gimble: "Your neck doesn't look too strong when paired with my buddy's sword." Intimidation fails. The large, shady man takes Regdar's sword from him, and bends it with his teeth, with no effort other than to move his arms. Initimidation succeeds.
runestar 11-19-07, 08:47 PM	There's also the fact that you never, ever see Superman really trying to make an Intimidate check. And when he does, it works. His Str score has one Hell of a mod to it. And apparently, his attempt to scare someone by lifting a car with 1 hand was quite laughable as well...:P
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 10:32 PM	Just curious... Why do you think it's stupid? Should a 6' tall humanoid be equally afraid of a 30' giant and a 3' halfling? With the exception of hieght, these races are nearly identical. Instinctually, it just makes sense to fear something that much bigger than you. For example, I'd be more intimidated by a lion than a fox if I were hunting either. Except that D&D does not equal realism (check my sig for confirmation). Magic is a great equalizer. 3' halfling spellcasters are in general more to be feared than 30' giants. Also, there are classes and feats that allow a smaller character to gain combat bonuses against larger characters; I hardly think such a character would be more afraid of larger opponents.
mathew99 11-19-07, 10:37 PM	can someone just post the X stat to Y bonus thread link. sry, I would but I dont have access to my home comp.
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 10:38 PM	can someone just post the X stat to Y bonus thread link. sry, I would but I dont have access to my home comp. It's in my sig.
mathew99 11-19-07, 10:47 PM	accordin to THIS (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=4584975#post4584975) thread, which is the best one for this kind of thing, there isn't.
Nom 11-19-07, 10:57 PM	To follow on from BW, Intimidate makes them act as if Friendly (at least temporarily). An intimidated character will not attack you if you turn your back on them. A character that is merely frightened will likely either run or attack, depending on how brave he is. The trick isn't convincing the guy that you can hurt him. The trick is convincing them that it's in their best interest to give you the information that you want and they don't want to give you, as opposed to fleeing / fainting / fighting to the death / lying / screaming for help / other unhelpful action.
Radiun 11-19-07, 11:01 PM	Gimble: "Your neck doesn't look too strong when paired with my buddy's sword." Intimidation fails. The large, shady man takes Regdar's sword from him, and bends it with his teeth, with no effort other than to move his arms. Initimidation succeeds. Mialee laughs at the metal chewing man as she casts Dominate person. Max Magic Level should be a bonus to intimidate >.> Everyone remember Lennie Small from "Of Mice and Men". High STR, Large man, about as intimidating as a sack of bread crumbs, If he tried to scare you, he'd fail because he doesn't have that presence and would likely mumble / second guess his words.
Orenmir 11-19-07, 11:56 PM	Except that D&D does not equal realism (check my sig for confirmation). Using that as a blanket statement to qualify rule-bending is very dangerous. Yes, D&D is fantasy; but, it is grounded in reality. All basic real world principles and methods (such as gravity, time, instincts, fear, and intimidation) exist in D&D. D&D just adds more layers of fantasy properties to it, such as magic and the planes. Now, to more directly address your claim... I will concede that a 15th level wizard with a poor intimidate check ready shouldn't be getting scared of your run-of-the-mill troll. Will you concede that a first level fighter should be easily scared by the same troll? ...and, that size plays a big role in that fear?
runestar 11-20-07, 12:43 AM	Will you concede that a first level fighter should be easily scared by the same troll? ...and, that size plays a big role in that fear? But that scared factor has nothing to do with the intimidate check at all. It is simply common sense kicking in, because the 1st lv fighter knows his own limitations and realizes he is no match for a troll.
Jaxgaret 11-20-07, 06:33 PM	Using that as a blanket statement to qualify rule-bending is very dangerous. Yes, D&D is fantasy; but, it is grounded in reality. All basic real world principles and methods (such as gravity, time, instincts, fear, and intimidation) exist in D&D. D&D just adds more layers of fantasy properties to it, such as magic and the planes. My apologies. I should have made an analogy instead of what I wrote: Who are you more afraid of, the 6'6" 250 pound bouncer, or the 5'6" 150 pound guy with the Uzi? Same thing applies to D&D, except replace guns with magic. Now, to more directly address your claim... I will concede that a 15th level wizard with a poor intimidate check ready shouldn't be getting scared of your run-of-the-mill troll. Will you concede that a first level fighter should be easily scared by the same troll? ...and, that size plays a big role in that fear? I'm just saying that making every character more afraid of larger creatures and less afraid of smaller creatures is silly. I could see using ECL or CR as the basis - that would make much more sense. Add the opponents' CR to their Intimidate check could work nicely. There are tons of creatures in D&D that are much more powerful than their size scale, and everyone knows it.
Chase 11-21-07, 02:52 AM	Hello! Just a comment, in the Stargate RPG, you are allowed to apply either your Cha or Str modifier to an intimidate check. To apply your Str, you have to be physically threatening the target. I don't remember anything more specific, but it is a official ruling of the skill that I have seen.
Kalis Atrud 11-22-07, 06:00 PM	There's also the fact that you never, ever see Superman really trying to make an Intimidate check. And when he does, it works. His Str score has one Hell of a mod to it. ===Aelryinth It should work, at least on mooks and Joe Beerkeg(Joe Sixpack has let himself go with all the fast food), Superman should have super charisma, even if it isn't as far into the stratosphere as his STR. Superman's problem is that most people see Superman as a paragon of justice. They know he isn't going to pull a Jack Bauer and shoot them in the knee then step on the wound. Batman looks dark and sinister, they consider the possibility that he might.
aelryinth 11-22-07, 11:29 PM	Superman's Intimidate threats would be more along the lines of "Do you really, really want me keeping an eye on you?" Like, from past the moon? Listening to your every conversation? Tracking you by your heartbeat? If I was someone Superman wanted to Intimidate, those kinds of thoughts would have me cold. I'm reminded of a book where all Superman did is show up outside every establishment a certain low-life frequented. In no time at all the crook was abandoned by all his friends, receiving death threats, and willing to do whatever it took to get Superman off his case. Supes didn't even have to say anything. He just had to be in the area. So yeah, Supes can be plenty intimidating. He'd just rather roll Diplomacy checks...they are more effective and they last longer. ===Aelryinth
xpochian 11-23-07, 01:30 AM	I would argue that superman is effectively deus ex machina, in our examples. Really, any score could be used with intimidate: Str - break stuff and scare people Con - crank bottle over your head and sneer Dex - casually twiddle deadly knives through your fingers Int - explain to target where each of his 150+ bones are, and their breaking points Wis - calm, cool and collected stare-down Cha - the usual
Gemstone 11-23-07, 03:23 AM	I let a player, if he wants, perform a feat of strength that gives +2 bonus to intimidate for every 10 points he managed to roll with 1d20+strength. Can offset a negative strength score, but it's still not really intimidate IMO, Intimidate is something else than just threatening to hurt someone. I mean, Intimidate lets people do stuff for you far longer than a simple threat does.
Marcus Majarra 11-23-07, 03:27 AM	The idea is that trying to scare someone through brute force isn't intimidation. It's simply displaying how strong you are and letting the other person react. A troll will scare a 1st-level party without question. Responding to displays of strength is merely a matter of survival instinct. The Intimidate skill is used to convince others to act in your best interest through, at least, verbal threats and body language. The skill relies not on creating an immediate threat, but in making the opponent realize that serious problems will occur if that person doesn't cooperate, even if that person doesn't feel threatened by the character. If you're using strength and you say "do this or I'll break you in half!" an immediate threat exists, which makes Intimidate pointless. It'll be difficult to get the opponent to do exactly what you want, since any opponent affected by such tactics will most likely escape at the first opportunity. The Intimidate skill is all about mind games. If you've seen the Saw movie series, Jigsaw's mind games (not the traps themselves) constitute good uses of the Intimidate skill.
Radiun 11-23-07, 10:31 AM	The idea is that trying to scare someone through brute force isn't intimidation. It's simply displaying how strong you are and letting the other person react. This also brings up the question: (Random scores used, just follow the principle :P) Why would a human with 14 str be more intimidating to the half-orc with 18 str after displaying his strength when the half-orc knows that he is stronger. If Str was used instead of Cha, would the bonus only apply to creatures you were demonstratably much stronger than?
CryoSilver 11-23-07, 10:48 AM	I let a player, if he wants, perform a feat of strength that gives +2 bonus to intimidate for every 10 points he managed to roll with 1d20+strength. I do something similar. I let the player set a DC he wants to try and beat with his Str check. It starts at 15, and goes up in increments of 2. He gets a bonus on his Intimidate check if he beats it equal to 2+1 for every 2 points above 15 (17=+3, 21=+5, etc). If he fails, he takes a -2 penalty to the check. No taking ten on this roll. This makes a barbarian with Destructive rage QUITE intimidating. Hell, I know I'd be scared by a huge guy frothing at the mouth punching a tree into splinters. I also allow characters using Aid Another with Intimidate to use their Str mod. So the charismatic guy says "I would hate to have to leave you alone with Smashskull the Puppyeater," whereupon Smashskull the Puppyeater punts a baby half a mile using his tremendous Str mod, granting Smoothtalk the Elfguy a +2 bonus on Intimidate.
VulcanStormwrath 11-23-07, 01:08 PM	I think I remember reading somewher that you can perform a weapon drill in lieu of intimidate.
The_Shaman 11-23-07, 07:20 PM	I think I remember reading somewher that you can perform a weapon drill in lieu of intimidate. I think it's still rather indirect... the person might just think you're playing or simply psychotic. It could work with a penalty, though, but it's still based off charisma.
The_Shaman 11-23-07, 07:38 PM	Double-post, sry.
DarkAngelPrime 11-23-07, 11:20 PM	It seems to me that, like a lot of other skills, there are other factors that should play into intimidate. Swim isn't just swim, for instance. It takes into account the water conditions. Say you have a halfling rogue who wants the captain of the town guard to take him to the town magistrate. Scenario 1: The halfling approaches the captain of guard right outside the barracks with many of his heavily armed lieutenants surrounding him. The attempts to intimidate the guard captain into arranging a meeting, threatening the man's family if he doesn't comply. Scenario 2: The halfling and his party break into the captain's home in the middle of the night, tie up him along with his family. The halfing then makes the same demand while stroking the cheek of his wife with a dagger. The same applies in combat. Suppose you have a lone human barbarian entering combat with a party of orcs. Scenario 1: The barbarian tries to intimidate the orcs in the first round of comabt when he is horribly outnumbered. Scenario 2: The barbarian slays 75% of the orcs taking minimal damage and is drenched in orc blood and still raging as he attempts to intimidate the remaining foes. Mathematically, the scenarios above wouldn't be any different, but I think we can agree there's a world of difference. It also seems to me that certain races or maybe classes should get a reputation bonus to their intimidate checks. Orcs and gnolls take a hard charisma penalty, but in most settings, such creatures would be a terribly intimidating presence, particularly to NPCs whose village is regularly ravaged.
MnemonicSV 11-24-07, 02:42 AM	I think I remember reading somewher that you can perform a weapon drill in lieu of intimidate. There's a special (potential) class ability of the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (CW) which allows you the add your BAB to the Intimidate check. I can't recall any mention of substituting a Perform (Weapon Drill) check though, at least not in CW where that skill appears. Of course, as The_Shaman noted, that too would be a CHA-based check anyway. As for the OP, I going to join the "STR shouldn't apply to Intimidate checks" crowd. Allowing STR to determine if someone is intimidated by you, is much like using STR to pull off a Bluff or negotiate with Diplomacy: "Grrrr... see me bend this iron bar?!? Now surely you can see that this diadem doesn't belong to the duchess!" OR "They won't end their feud with each other eh? Well then, just let them see me flex! My bulging biceps and washboard abs will certainly help them negotiate a peaceful solution!" Wow... those two examples totally remind me of the "chewbacca defence."
Thief_of_Hope 11-24-07, 04:54 AM	I think I remember reading somewher that you can perform a weapon drill in lieu of intimidate. Perhaps you are thinking of the Intimidating Display alternate bard class ability from Quintessential Bard 2? It allows you to make a Perform (Weapon Display) check to intimidate people. As for the OP, I going to join the "STR shouldn't apply to Intimidate checks" crowd. Allowing STR to determine if someone is intimidated by you, is much like using STR to pull off a Bluff or negotiate with Diplomacy: "Grrrr... see me bend this iron bar?!? Now surely you can see that this diadem doesn't belong to the duchess!" OR "They won't end their feud with each other eh? Well then, just let them see me flex! My bulging biceps and washboard abs will certainly help them negotiate a peaceful solution!"[/size] You have made an excellent point in a hilarious way. You have also been sigged. Well done.
thktanuki 11-24-07, 12:32 PM	"They won't end their feud with each other eh? Well then, just let them see me flex! My bulging biceps and washboard abs will certainly help them negotiate a peaceful solution!" That kinda makes me think of Colonel Armstrong from FMA, lol. But in response to the TC, I don't think there should be any "substitution" of STR for CHA, but a couple of the ideas used in here would work. i.e. aid another, or that str check vs dc thing.
Realms of Chaos 11-25-07, 10:02 AM	Um, as the original poster was wondering how to get their strength modifier to their intimidate and not whether charisma should have even been used in the first place, allow me to get back on track. Dread Tyrrany, from Races of Destiny. It is one of the initiate feats. You need to be a cleric 3 and worship hextor. It actually lets you add your charisma modifier and your strength modifier to intimidate checks. Also, your penalty for attacking for nonlethal damage is reduced and you get a small smattering of spells.
Regularguy1 11-25-07, 10:04 AM	"They won't end their feud with each other eh? Well then, just let them see me flex! My bulging biceps and washboard abs will certainly help them negotiate a peaceful solution!" Just to continue the ongoing hijack, let me mention that this is pretty much exactly what Superman does in the first issue of, well, SUPERMAN, back in the 1930s: he grabs the warring heads of state and ends said war by explaining that either (a) the two of 'em start fighting it out personally, or (b) he'll clean up on both of 'em -- or, well, okay, they could negotiate a peaceful end to this whole thing, since, y'know, that's all the guy who looks and dresses like a circus strongman wants. Which reminds me that, on the old MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE show, the team's go-to guy for intimidation was the record-breaking weightlifter they'd send undercover as a circus strongman when he wasn't taking a sledgehammer to a brick wall or effortlessly carrying around a trojan-horse gimmick so that folks only ever saw him not straining with the reinforced suitcase in each hand by which he was casually smuggling two full-grown men into the vault -- since, well, how else could they set him up to likewise just carry out four hundred pounds of heisted stuff for the equally casual win? But I digress. The point is, he scared the crap out of people, since, well, he looked like he could beat the crap out of people, which, as it happens, is also something he was routinely called on to do. And, yes, I get the point about how a little guy with a gun is scarier than a big guy without one, which is why he routinely brandished a gun when intimidating folks (who, for some reason, didn't try to wrestle it away from the guy who was built like a circus strongman and looked like he could beat the crap out of people). In fact, they'd build entire otherwise "impossible" missions around how intimidating he looked. No, really: they'd make plans relying exactly as much on how people would, uh, intimidatedly react to him just showing up as on Barney knowing how to pilot a helicopter or Rollin practicing until he could impersonate someone's voice over the phone. Everybody had a specialty, and his was on display every time he'd kick down a door so folks could see just how well he dwarfed the shotgun in his hand.
Jovknee 11-25-07, 10:36 AM	You could always ask the DM to allow you to design a feat that allows you to use your STR modifier instead of your CHA modifier for Intimidate checks. I was about to also say adding a +1 to the skill because of the feat, however I remembered that skill focus is only a +3 bonus, so no additional points. (The person taking this feat would probably have a very high str and avg to very low cha) There are also several over feats out there that will also increase your Intimidate. Thug and skill focus are a couple.
VulcanStormwrath 11-25-07, 10:46 AM	It seems to me that, like a lot of other skills, there are other factors that should play into intimidate. Swim isn't just swim, for instance. It takes into account the water conditions. Say you have a halfling rogue who wants the captain of the town guard to take him to the town magistrate. Scenario 1: The halfling approaches the captain of guard right outside the barracks with many of his heavily armed lieutenants surrounding him. The attempts to intimidate the guard captain into arranging a meeting, threatening the man's family if he doesn't comply. Scenario 2: The halfling and his party break into the captain's home in the middle of the night, tie up him along with his family. The halfing then makes the same demand while stroking the cheek of his wife with a dagger. The same applies in combat. Suppose you have a lone human barbarian entering combat with a party of orcs. Scenario 1: The barbarian tries to intimidate the orcs in the first round of comabt when he is horribly outnumbered. Scenario 2: The barbarian slays 75% of the orcs taking minimal damage and is drenched in orc blood and still raging as he attempts to intimidate the remaining foes. Mathematically, the scenarios above wouldn't be any different, but I think we can agree there's a world of difference. It also seems to me that certain races or maybe classes should get a reputation bonus to their intimidate checks. Orcs and gnolls take a hard charisma penalty, but in most settings, such creatures would be a terribly intimidating presence, particularly to NPCs whose village is regularly ravaged. That's where any worthwile DM applies circumstance bonuses, and is infact the reason why the circumstance bonus exists I believe.
VulcanStormwrath 11-25-07, 10:50 AM	Perhaps you are thinking of the Intimidating Display alternate bard class ability from Quintessential Bard 2? It allows you to make a Perform (Weapon Display) check to intimidate people. That sounds about right What I'd probably do if it seemed reasonable, would be to allow a successful strength check to act sort of an "Aid another" attempt on the Itimidate check giving a +2 on a success. However a failure would be a -2 on the check due to all the pointing and laughing.
Kalis Atrud 11-25-07, 05:10 PM	Superman's Intimidate threats would be more along the lines of "Do you really, really want me keeping an eye on you?" Like, from past the moon? Listening to your every conversation? Tracking you by your heartbeat? ... So yeah, Supes can be plenty intimidating. He'd just rather roll Diplomacy checks...they are more effective and they last longer. ===Aelryinth Sounds like he is using his charisma for the intimidation you listed, as his super strength isn't really the issue there. His intimidation would be just as powerful if he lost his super strength and kept all his other abilities.
ravenshrike 11-25-07, 10:26 PM	My apologies. I should have made an analogy instead of what I wrote: Who are you more afraid of, the 6'6" 250 pound bouncer, or the 5'6" 150 pound guy with the Uzi? The bouncer, as the idiot with the uzi probably thinks full auto is a good thing. Which means he's less likely to actually hit me(although not as bad as with a Mac 10). He'll be lucky to hit me once at any distance beyond 10 feet if I'm moving. With the mag lasting less than 3 seconds on full auto, it probably wouldn't be hard to rip him a new one when he tries to reload.
Jaxgaret 11-26-07, 01:42 AM	The bouncer, as the idiot with the uzi probably thinks full auto is a good thing. Which means he's less likely to actually hit me(although not as bad as with a Mac 10). He'll be lucky to hit me once at any distance beyond 10 feet if I'm moving. With the mag lasting less than 3 seconds on full auto, it probably wouldn't be hard to rip him a new one when he tries to reload. Who said the Uzi-wielder is an idiot? In D&D, the correlational Uzi-wielder (the mage) is more likely to be intelligent, or wise. Just as an aside - the Uzi is an effective weapon when utilized correctly. It is used today by several militaries around the world, and up until 2003 was still used by some Israeli special forces.
ravenshrike 11-26-07, 03:09 PM	Who said the Uzi-wielder is an idiot? In D&D, the correlational Uzi-wielder (the mage) is more likely to be intelligent, or wise. Just as an aside - the Uzi is an effective weapon when utilized correctly. It is used today by several militaries around the world, and up until 2003 was still used by some Israeli special forces. Than he would be wielding something else besides an uzi. Maybe a full-auto modified AR15 with a 6.8 upper. A couple of grenades, a .45 or two, with a M-60 E-4 and he's good to go.
Awesome_Dude 11-26-07, 05:35 PM	Than he would be wielding something else besides an uzi. Maybe a full-auto modified AR15 with a 6.8 upper. A couple of grenades, a .45 or two, with a M-60 E-4 and he's good to go. Nah. He wears an Armani suit and 600 $ sunglasses. Anything bulkier than an uzi will cramp his style and ruin the look. It's also expensive and therefore will mean a cut to his cocaine budget. I'm actually describing a character I played in a zombie survival horror campaign under the GURPS system. The Uzi was a secondary weapon to his meat cleaver. It really has no bearing on Jaxgaret's example, though.
Jaxgaret 11-26-07, 11:46 PM	Than he would be wielding something else besides an uzi. Maybe a full-auto modified AR15 with a 6.8 upper. A couple of grenades, a .45 or two, with a M-60 E-4 and he's good to go. Okay. Replace the Uzi with your loadout if it floats your boat. Nah. He wears an Armani suit and 600 $ sunglasses. Anything bulkier than an uzi will cramp his style and ruin the look. It's also expensive and therefore will mean a cut to his cocaine budget. I'm actually describing a character I played in a zombie survival horror campaign under the GURPS system. The Uzi was a secondary weapon to his meat cleaver. It really has no bearing on Jaxgaret's example, though. Heh. Nice.
CryoSilver 11-26-07, 11:52 PM	He'll be lucky to hit me once at any distance beyond 10 feet if I'm moving. With the mag lasting less than 3 seconds on full auto, it probably wouldn't be hard to rip him a new one when he tries to reload. I've fired an Uzi before, and wildly inaccurate (and FUN) as they are, judging by the tree I was shooting, it only takes one of the fifty pieces of supersonic molten lead hitting to ruin someone's day. Those are not good odds.
Jaxgaret 11-26-07, 11:53 PM	I've fired an Uzi before, and wildly inaccurate (and FUN) as they are, judging by the tree I was shooting, it only takes one of the fifty pieces of supersonic molten lead hitting to ruin someone's day. Those are not good odds. And just think about someone well-trained and well-practiced in its use; they're quite deadly at close ranges when wielded by such a person. Here's a fun video of an Uzi being shot accurately (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aax35iZsBU).
CryoSilver 11-27-07, 12:00 AM	Indeed. I'm not sure what world RavenShrike lives in, but in my world, someone with a plinker little Glock 17 is still f*** scary, even if it doesn't have a 6.8 upper (yes, I know what that is, and I like it a lot better than the 5.56). Similarly, the stacked 6'6" guy with arms as big as my thigh is also scary, because even if I'm faster than him, one punch is still going to lay me out if it lands. That is why I allow some element of Strength to weigh into Intimidate. Having a gun would be part of your ranks in the skill: the forethought to point your gun/bow at the dude's crotch is something that might not occur to someone good at intimidating others.
solandras 11-27-07, 08:02 AM	There is a feat in the Book of Ultimate Feats, which allows you to use your strength instead of charisma for Intimidate, Gather Information, and something else. Forgot the name of the feat too, sorry, but its a start
CryoSilver 11-27-07, 05:28 PM	Gather Information? Okay... I'm trying to picture it. Grarg, orc barbarian: "Stupid pamphlet not tell Grarg what Grarg want know! Grarg SMASH pamphlet. Oh, there it is."
solandras 11-27-07, 10:48 PM	More like the orc will smash informants and streetwise people around the city if they don't tell him what he wants to know. Sort of like K in Men in Black.
Jaxgaret 11-27-07, 11:39 PM	More like the orc will smash informants and streetwise people around the city if they don't tell him what he wants to know. Sort of like K in Men in Black. Wouldn't those be encounters? You can't just roll an Intimidate for beating someone up.
Gemstone 11-28-07, 04:07 AM	The thing with intimidate is that a successful check makes them helpfull, thus they'll tell you what you need to know (or that they can't help you). Threatening to beat someone up will likely make them say anything to just get away from you. Also, a successful intimidate check, IMO, prevents them from calling the guards on you. A simple threat won't do that.
solandras 11-28-07, 08:24 PM	Wouldn't those be encounters? You can't just roll an Intimidate for beating someone up. First, that's why I said he'll beat them up IF they don't tell him...thus his Gather Info succeeds and they tell him without getting beat up. And second, you can roll Intimidate when you're beating someone up, well ok, not in the same round because you have to use your standard action to either intimidate or to attack, but still in the same fight. But still, that's why you'd Intimidate, then if it fails, then beat them up.
VulcanStormwrath 11-28-07, 08:40 PM	Gather Information? Okay... I'm trying to picture it. Grarg, orc barbarian: "Stupid pamphlet not tell Grarg what Grarg want know! Grarg SMASH pamphlet. Oh, there it is." I think it's more along the lines of beating information out of People
CryoSilver 11-28-07, 08:43 PM	Grarg, orc barbarian: "Stupid information kiosk lady not tell Grarg what Grarg want know! Grarg SMASH information kiosk. Thank you, information kiosk lady."
VulcanStormwrath 11-28-07, 09:00 PM	Grarg, orc barbarian: "Stupid information kiosk lady not tell Grarg what Grarg want know! Grarg SMASH information kiosk. Thank you, information kiosk lady." :rofl: :clap:
Jaxgaret 11-29-07, 12:49 AM	First, that's why I said he'll beat them up IF they don't tell him...thus his Gather Info succeeds and they tell him without getting beat up. Ah, so you meant that he would threaten to smash informants and streetwise people around the city if they don't tell him what he wants to know, without him actually starting any fights. That still sounds rather implausible as a Gather Info roll. Someone's going to want to fight anyway. Or come back later with the authorities or a group to fight you. It's not going to be a simple "You rolled a 23? Here's what you found out". There's repercussions.