Is there expanded Leadership Co-Hort List [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is there expanded Leadership Co-Hort List [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Red_Wizards_Rock
02-01-08, 10:13 AM I'm playing a Demon and I was thinking about taking the leadership feat, but the only Demon on that list is a Quasit. Not that I don't like Quasits, but I got one of those as a familiar now. Is there another list of monsters from other books for leadership. I'm trying to do a Demon flavor obviousl, and thx for any help.

(Small Rant)
You only need to be lvl 16 with the leadership feat to get an Erinyes (Devil)
and
You need to be a lvl 21 with epic leadership feat to get a Succubus (Demon)

I any views on that or corrections? That just doesn't sound right to me, but I'm in the middle of a rant so it happens.
Father Dale
02-01-08, 10:41 AM Well, theres no real restriction on the class, level, race, or type of cohort you attract with the Leadership feat. Its just that your cohort's ECL (effective character level) can't exceed the Cohort Level provided by your modified Leadership score or your ECL-2, whichever is lower.

ECL is generally a function of HD plus Level Adjustment. (HD being from both race and class.) But the problem with Demons and most outsiders is that many don't have a listed Level Adjustment. So that makes determining their ECL difficult. Plus, given the many various powers of most demons and outsiders, they typically would have very high Level Adjustments (probably between +4 and +8) making it difficult to get such creatures as cohorts except at very high levels.

(Note that ECL is not related to CR, so using CR is not appropriate for measuring the ECL of a creature. Just as an example, a creature with the Vampire template has a CR adjustment of +2 but a level adjustment of +8! So a 1 HD human fighter vampire has a CR of 3 but has an ECL of 9.)

Just to get some baseline idea, I looked at Savage Species for monster progressions for demons and devils. This is a useful tool for estimating appropriate Level Adjustments, as a monster progression will end when the monster reaches the appropriate HD plus LA; in other words, however many levels are in the monster progression indicates its ECL. The Vrock comes up with 8 HD after 16 levels, giving it a LA of +8 and a base ECL of 16. This is confirmed by the LA given for the Vrock in the Monster Manual. However, the Monster Manual Vrock has ten HD, giving it a total ECL of 18. This is beyond the chart for non-epic Leadership, and would require the Epic Leadership feat to attract such a cohort.

Seeing as the many demons out there will have an ECL of way too high to be useful as cohorts pre-epic, you might want to consider using a cohort with say the Fiendish or Half-fiendish template. Fiendish is a +2 LA template while Half-Fiendish is a +4 LA. This will give the feel of a demonic influenced creature, but will also open up many possibilities for a cohort, as these templates can be added to a broad variety of creatures and races.
Obsidianjaerc
02-01-08, 11:22 AM Dale covered things nicely.

You may also wish to consider other thematic monsters for your Cohort, such as Nightmares or Xill.
Red_Wizards_Rock
02-01-08, 11:28 AM In the case of Succubus and Erinyes it lists both of those in Monster Manual

Succubus is LA +6 and 6 HD
Erinyes are LA +7 and 9 HD

I'm going to ask the DM if they'll let me pull the succubus off the Epic Leadership list since Erinyes are on the regular Leadership list.
Father Dale
02-01-08, 02:23 PM That should be just fine, I think. First, its all based on ECL anyways, and the Succubus's ECL in the 3.5 Monster Manual would be 12, making it appropriate for a PC of at least 14th level or higher (assuming the PC's leadership score is high enough to attract an ECL 12 cohort).

Second, the leadership lists are just examples. You don't have to draw just from that list. They just give common possible cohorts and the level of the PC needed to attract such a cohort, given the cohort's ECL. Basically, the lists are just doing the calculations for you.

Third, I'm not sure why the Succubus is on the Epic Leadership list. My guess is that the 3.0 Succubus must have had more HD or had a higher level adjustment factored in. In any event, the 3.5 Succubus is clearly attainable as a cohort by an appropriate level PC.

Note that if your ECL and Leadership scores are high enough, you could attract a Succubus with more HD or even class levels. For example, a 16th lvl PC with a modified Leadership score of 20 could attract an ECL 14 cohort. If he attracted a Succubus cohort, the cohort should have either 2 additional racial HD or 2 class levels, or 1 extra racial HD and 1 class level. Thus, said Succubus could be a lvl 2 Rogue or Sorcerer, for instance. In any event, as your PC gains levels, your cohort will be gaining levels as well, so at some point you will have to give it either additional racial HD or class levels.

Also consider how you will be allowed to generate your Succubus's ability scores. A basic Succubus would use the same scores as the MM, which are based on the standard ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. An 'elite' Succubus would use the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, modified by the ability score bonuses (find the ability score bonuses by subtracting 10 or 11 from each of the monsters' ability scores, such that the result is an even number). (The ability array's can be applied to any ability score as the creator so desires.) For a succubus, the ability point bonuses would be +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +16 Cha. You can also use this method to generate ability scores (i.e. roll ability scores and add the modifiers, just as with a PC). (See p. 294 of the Monster Manual for the info regarding all this.) (Note also that using the elite array or another method of generating abilities can result in the creature having different skills and skill checks than those listed, particularly if its Int modifier is changed. This can be tricky as the MM doesn't list skill ranks, just skill checks, so its often easiest to just start from scratch when generating skills. Just as with a PC, follow all the rules for maximum ranks in class skills and cross class skills.)

Note that per the Monster Manual, monsters with class levels should use the elite array. So a Succubus Sorcerer 1 could have ability scores of Str 11, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 30, and would be ECL 13 and have a CR of 8, and would be an appropriate cohort for a 15+ PC with a modified leadership score of 19+.
Red_Wizards_Rock
02-01-08, 05:13 PM Where are you getting these ability scores? and chances are I'll be rolling them anyway. I'm actually playing a Marilith for anyone wondering.
Father Dale
02-01-08, 06:02 PM The ability scores are based on the succubus ability scores found in the SRD:

Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26

Those are the base ability scores for a succubus.

this is using the standard ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, as all monster stats are generated using these base ability scores, excepting those monsters with PC or NPC class levels. Thus, the succubus ability bonuses are the listed ability score minus the standard array, resulting in:

Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +16

So if you are using the elite ability array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which is used for creating "elite" monsters (which have a +1 CR over the base) or for monsters who have PC class levels (monsters with NPC class levels use the 'basic" array which I think is like 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), you take the elite array abilities and assign them to whatever abilities you like, then add the monster's ability adjustments. Or you can roll the ability scores and apply the ability modifiers. Its all spelled out on p. 294 of the Monster Manual.

Now seeing as you are playing a Marilith, you are in fact playing an epic level character (at least in the sense that it has an ECL well over 20, probably around 24).

Also, if you rolled your Marilith's ability scores, you should have made the following adjustments to the Marilith's scores:

Str +18, Dex +8, Con +18, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +14

Yeah those are big numbers, but its factored into the level adjustment, which for a Marilith will be extremely high. In fact its so high that its not even appropriate for a PC to play a Marilith in a non-epic game, seeing as they didn't give it a level adjustment. My guess would be its at least a +8 level adjustment--which is a vampire's level adjustment--or possibly even a +9. (Compare to the Astral Deva which has a +8 level adjustment.)
runestar
02-01-08, 06:55 PM Note that if you are using them as PCs, you use whatever stat generation method the rest of the PCs use.

For example, if your party uses 28 point buy to generate their stats, your marilith and succubus cohort too should get the benefit of 28 point buy, adding their racial stat modifiers on top of your base stats (you don't use base 10s).

Don't get cheated.:)
Red_Wizards_Rock
02-01-08, 09:35 PM Yea we roll our stats and drop the lowest and turn it to 18 we don't do the point buy system. We get what we get.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 10:13 AM	I'm playing a Demon and I was thinking about taking the leadership feat, but the only Demon on that list is a Quasit. Not that I don't like Quasits, but I got one of those as a familiar now. Is there another list of monsters from other books for leadership. I'm trying to do a Demon flavor obviousl, and thx for any help. (Small Rant) You only need to be lvl 16 with the leadership feat to get an Erinyes (Devil) and You need to be a lvl 21 with epic leadership feat to get a Succubus (Demon) I any views on that or corrections? That just doesn't sound right to me, but I'm in the middle of a rant so it happens.
Father Dale 02-01-08, 10:41 AM	Well, theres no real restriction on the class, level, race, or type of cohort you attract with the Leadership feat. Its just that your cohort's ECL (effective character level) can't exceed the Cohort Level provided by your modified Leadership score or your ECL-2, whichever is lower. ECL is generally a function of HD plus Level Adjustment. (HD being from both race and class.) But the problem with Demons and most outsiders is that many don't have a listed Level Adjustment. So that makes determining their ECL difficult. Plus, given the many various powers of most demons and outsiders, they typically would have very high Level Adjustments (probably between +4 and +8) making it difficult to get such creatures as cohorts except at very high levels. (Note that ECL is not related to CR, so using CR is not appropriate for measuring the ECL of a creature. Just as an example, a creature with the Vampire template has a CR adjustment of +2 but a level adjustment of +8! So a 1 HD human fighter vampire has a CR of 3 but has an ECL of 9.) Just to get some baseline idea, I looked at Savage Species for monster progressions for demons and devils. This is a useful tool for estimating appropriate Level Adjustments, as a monster progression will end when the monster reaches the appropriate HD plus LA; in other words, however many levels are in the monster progression indicates its ECL. The Vrock comes up with 8 HD after 16 levels, giving it a LA of +8 and a base ECL of 16. This is confirmed by the LA given for the Vrock in the Monster Manual. However, the Monster Manual Vrock has ten HD, giving it a total ECL of 18. This is beyond the chart for non-epic Leadership, and would require the Epic Leadership feat to attract such a cohort. Seeing as the many demons out there will have an ECL of way too high to be useful as cohorts pre-epic, you might want to consider using a cohort with say the Fiendish or Half-fiendish template. Fiendish is a +2 LA template while Half-Fiendish is a +4 LA. This will give the feel of a demonic influenced creature, but will also open up many possibilities for a cohort, as these templates can be added to a broad variety of creatures and races.
Obsidianjaerc 02-01-08, 11:22 AM	Dale covered things nicely. You may also wish to consider other thematic monsters for your Cohort, such as Nightmares or Xill.
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 11:28 AM	In the case of Succubus and Erinyes it lists both of those in Monster Manual Succubus is LA +6 and 6 HD Erinyes are LA +7 and 9 HD I'm going to ask the DM if they'll let me pull the succubus off the Epic Leadership list since Erinyes are on the regular Leadership list.
Father Dale 02-01-08, 02:23 PM	That should be just fine, I think. First, its all based on ECL anyways, and the Succubus's ECL in the 3.5 Monster Manual would be 12, making it appropriate for a PC of at least 14th level or higher (assuming the PC's leadership score is high enough to attract an ECL 12 cohort). Second, the leadership lists are just examples. You don't have to draw just from that list. They just give common possible cohorts and the level of the PC needed to attract such a cohort, given the cohort's ECL. Basically, the lists are just doing the calculations for you. Third, I'm not sure why the Succubus is on the Epic Leadership list. My guess is that the 3.0 Succubus must have had more HD or had a higher level adjustment factored in. In any event, the 3.5 Succubus is clearly attainable as a cohort by an appropriate level PC. Note that if your ECL and Leadership scores are high enough, you could attract a Succubus with more HD or even class levels. For example, a 16th lvl PC with a modified Leadership score of 20 could attract an ECL 14 cohort. If he attracted a Succubus cohort, the cohort should have either 2 additional racial HD or 2 class levels, or 1 extra racial HD and 1 class level. Thus, said Succubus could be a lvl 2 Rogue or Sorcerer, for instance. In any event, as your PC gains levels, your cohort will be gaining levels as well, so at some point you will have to give it either additional racial HD or class levels. Also consider how you will be allowed to generate your Succubus's ability scores. A basic Succubus would use the same scores as the MM, which are based on the standard ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. An 'elite' Succubus would use the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, modified by the ability score bonuses (find the ability score bonuses by subtracting 10 or 11 from each of the monsters' ability scores, such that the result is an even number). (The ability array's can be applied to any ability score as the creator so desires.) For a succubus, the ability point bonuses would be +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +16 Cha. You can also use this method to generate ability scores (i.e. roll ability scores and add the modifiers, just as with a PC). (See p. 294 of the Monster Manual for the info regarding all this.) (Note also that using the elite array or another method of generating abilities can result in the creature having different skills and skill checks than those listed, particularly if its Int modifier is changed. This can be tricky as the MM doesn't list skill ranks, just skill checks, so its often easiest to just start from scratch when generating skills. Just as with a PC, follow all the rules for maximum ranks in class skills and cross class skills.) Note that per the Monster Manual, monsters with class levels should use the elite array. So a Succubus Sorcerer 1 could have ability scores of Str 11, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 30, and would be ECL 13 and have a CR of 8, and would be an appropriate cohort for a 15+ PC with a modified leadership score of 19+.
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 05:13 PM	Where are you getting these ability scores? and chances are I'll be rolling them anyway. I'm actually playing a Marilith for anyone wondering.
Father Dale 02-01-08, 06:02 PM	The ability scores are based on the succubus ability scores found in the SRD: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26 Those are the base ability scores for a succubus. this is using the standard ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, as all monster stats are generated using these base ability scores, excepting those monsters with PC or NPC class levels. Thus, the succubus ability bonuses are the listed ability score minus the standard array, resulting in: Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +16 So if you are using the elite ability array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which is used for creating "elite" monsters (which have a +1 CR over the base) or for monsters who have PC class levels (monsters with NPC class levels use the 'basic" array which I think is like 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), you take the elite array abilities and assign them to whatever abilities you like, then add the monster's ability adjustments. Or you can roll the ability scores and apply the ability modifiers. Its all spelled out on p. 294 of the Monster Manual. Now seeing as you are playing a Marilith, you are in fact playing an epic level character (at least in the sense that it has an ECL well over 20, probably around 24). Also, if you rolled your Marilith's ability scores, you should have made the following adjustments to the Marilith's scores: Str +18, Dex +8, Con +18, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +14 Yeah those are big numbers, but its factored into the level adjustment, which for a Marilith will be extremely high. In fact its so high that its not even appropriate for a PC to play a Marilith in a non-epic game, seeing as they didn't give it a level adjustment. My guess would be its at least a +8 level adjustment--which is a vampire's level adjustment--or possibly even a +9. (Compare to the Astral Deva which has a +8 level adjustment.)
runestar 02-01-08, 06:55 PM	Note that if you are using them as PCs, you use whatever stat generation method the rest of the PCs use. For example, if your party uses 28 point buy to generate their stats, your marilith and succubus cohort too should get the benefit of 28 point buy, adding their racial stat modifiers on top of your base stats (you don't use base 10s). Don't get cheated.:)
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 09:35 PM	Yea we roll our stats and drop the lowest and turn it to 18 we don't do the point buy system. We get what we get.