Is Vow of Poverty too powerful [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is Vow of Poverty too powerful [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dismas
03-28-07, 09:30 PM Our character's are severly under powered in our campaign as far as magic items go, so My monk took the VoP feat and now my DM claims that it makes him too powerful. From what I understood, the vow let the character keep up with characters with magic items, it shouldn't leave them in the dust...should it?
Rhuxley
03-28-07, 09:34 PM Vow is perfect, while yes it does allow them to keep these effects while they are tied up, and without relying on magic items, but there are a few stabilizers.
Requisit Alignment: Not a big one, but its still there, if you otherwise were evil, you would just change alignments, but with thtis you lose the feat. Like isaid, not big but its there.
No custimization: This is the huge one. You want your weapons to do fire damage? too bad. want to lose some AC enhancement bonus for the fortification ability, too bad. Etc. No custimization is ******.

But in reality if your playing in a low magic world, it is Overpowered.
enygmatic_me
03-28-07, 09:38 PM About the only time Vow of Poverty might be close to being considered overpowered would be in a low magic item game. Mechanically though, in a standard game a character properly equipped with items appropriate for their level will more often than not be more powerful then a character with the Vow of Poverty. Vow of Poverty is as much, if not more so, about role-playing than it is about power.

In my opinion the class that actually benefits most from the Vow of Poverty would be the Druid.
e7way
03-28-07, 09:39 PM depends on what levels it seem to me that around 12-16th level my VoP monk was TCIG (Toughest Character In the Group) but after that other characters have caught him and surpassed him. Once your parties wizard gets to 17-20 he will leave your VoP in the dust.
Dismas
03-28-07, 09:40 PM It's not that the world is low magic, everything is dead standard, EL's and all, escept the DM's a little stingy...well...alot stingy with the magic items for the PCs. And with gold. (about 30 per encounter) So I figured, if I'm already paying the penalty, why not get the benefit?
MCage
03-28-07, 09:41 PM Yeah i have to say its powerful but its not too powerful. While you can use consumables (ie potions) you have to be givin them, you cant just have a few on your belt or be handed one for later in the upcomming fight..that is without gimping yourself severly.

The only thing i think might be a bit much is the massive amount of feats you can get off it if your a fighter (please dont start a fighter debate off that comment), sure you get Exalted off the vow and fighter feats off the class but ******* thats still alot
Dismas
03-28-07, 09:42 PM Well, like I said, I've got a monk. Also, our group is fairly new, but I'm not new to dnd, and our Dm has ever played a character I think...
enygmatic_me
03-28-07, 09:45 PM It's not that the world is low magic, everything is dead standard, EL's and all, escept the DM's a little stingy...well...alot stingy with the magic items for the PCs. And with gold. (about 30 per encounter) So I figured, if I'm already paying the penalty, why not get the benefit?

Then that is a problem your DM must address. They must decide if they intentionally wish the campaign to remain low magic items. If so then you should exchange sacred vow and vow of poverty for other feats. If your DM wants the game to be a standard game then they need to actually start giving out magic items to the remainder of the group and still give you the option of exchanging your feats.

Sounds to me that you have a DM that is a little unsure of their abilities and is afraid of accidentally giving your group to much in the way of items and, in being cautious, has ended up going in the opposite direction.
Dismas
03-28-07, 09:50 PM Im not exactly sure that he knows how much equip. we should have....
snakebliskan
03-28-07, 11:41 PM vow is best used on a human monk in the begining ie. 1st lvl so you get the extra feat.. that being said you will be a powerhouse until you get to mid-high lvls...ie around 12 maybe 13 if your lucky. but unless you are playing to higher lvls then you should be just fine. also you could eventually try for the saint template.. it rocks!

My 12th lvl monk (human) saint was soo cool!
Krusk
03-29-07, 01:15 AM It is probably too powerful in your game.

you said your dm is very stingy with treasure and gold, the feat gives you average treasure and gold.

So if the party is all at the same level of below average and you are doing fine. then you are "overpowered" for your game. Either point that out to the dm or simply pick a new feat that wont throw you over them in powerlevel.

Seems he wants to run his game at a certian wealth for character level, and that feat is designed for an average one.

If you are really set on it, you could compromise and tone the feat down for your game.
magenificent
03-29-07, 03:10 AM Its been debated heavily before. The general consensus is that in an average campaign VoP is pretty average but not overpowered. It may be a bit strong at the lower levels but it will be surpassed by far at high levels. Minor things like DR can become a problem for a VoP character as he has no access to cold iron or silver; you can't even fly unless someone casts it on you.

The real benefit of VoP is that you don't have to rely on encounters or the DM for your "loot". You know exactly what you're going to get. While its a hinderance at times due to lack of customization, in exchange you get stability. Thats most likely what your DM doesn't like about it, that it takes it out of his hands. You should discuss it with him and ask if hes intentionaly running a low magic game. If its just that hes new to DMing then his reservations are understandable. In which case I suggest pointing him to some reference tables to help him manage treasure, particularly these:

This table shows the average treasure the party should receive for an encounter equal to their level:

Treasure Values Per Encounter Table 3-3 (DMG pg. 51)

This Table shows the average wealth that a character of any given level should possess:

Character Wealth Table 5-1 (DMG pg. 135)

Now while most people will say that these are of course only guidelines I think most would agree that they are the best way to go for first time DM as they are intended to provide fair play for everyone. In the average campaign VoP is not overpowered its more of an RP element.

The fact that in a normaly quite materialistic world (as far as PCs go) that there is still those who would forsake such things makes a very compelling character to play. Or maybe another interesting twist on VoP would be a character who instead sees such dependance on material things to be a weakness or a crutch. Just because hes good doesn't mean he wouldn't be arrogant or even contemptuous with his Holier Than Thou disposition.
JulesCARV
03-29-07, 03:33 AM What about having your monk receive benefits from Vow of Poverty that are of the level equal to the level at which the DMG guidelines claim your party should have about as much wealth as they do?

For example, if your party is level 10, and most of your party has about 20,000 gp, then your VoP monk would get the benefits from Vow of Poverty as if he were level 7, since level 7 characters are supposed to have about 19,000 gp.

The exception might be exalted feats. These could be gained every other level as normal, because 1) mechanically, having feats track a "virtual character level" rather than your actual character level is weird, and 2) Vow of Poverty isn't just paid for in wealth. It's paid for with two feats too, regardless of wealth, and the bonus exalted can help balance that aspect.
Ekkoe
04-08-07, 07:46 AM Hello,

I understand this thread is from a long time ago and kinda dead, but I'm still gonna post this here, if you don't mind...

I'm DMing a homemade campaign, which is going to be the second time I seriously DM, and there was this monk character who said he wanted to take VoP. He was already going to level his way through Githzerei, so he had an AC of 22 on level 5, and he actually wanted to be LN. It didn't really fit into my story (him wanting to be LG allasudden), so I just said no.

A druid with VoP is severely disadvantaged when he or she is not in Wild Shape, a sorcerer can't use robes, wands or expensive material components which provides a big disadvantage when VoP is taken, but a monk's only disadvantage is that he can't use magic rings or jewelery. Not enough for me.

Another player wants to work his way to Apostle of Peace. Now THAT's a story. He can have his VoP anytime.

Maybe a rather sloppy post, but what I'm trying to conclude is that when you doubt about whether or not letting a monk or any other player take VoP, look at the motives. Look at how it will effect his RPing, on how it will effect your story and on how it will effect the party. Don't like? Simply forbid it. You're the DM, your word counts.

PS: I understand this post isn't very likely to still be of use to the author of the thread, but maybe it is to others.
Mirtek
04-08-07, 08:42 AM Requisit Alignment: Not a big one, but its still there, if you otherwise were evil, you would just change alignments, but with thtis you lose the feat. Like isaid, not big but its there.

Actually it's the biggest handycap you can have. You don't just have to be good, you have to be exalted. 99.9999% of the players don't get it. Exalted is being too good for this world, it's a completly unrealistic behaviour, it's basically not possible to be exalted on this world (especially as an adventurer it's outright impossible).

Being exalted is something for people living save and sound on celestial planes like Elysium, but it's not possible faced with the harsh reality of daily live on a typical prime world.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dismas 03-28-07, 09:30 PM	Our character's are severly under powered in our campaign as far as magic items go, so My monk took the VoP feat and now my DM claims that it makes him too powerful. From what I understood, the vow let the character keep up with characters with magic items, it shouldn't leave them in the dust...should it?
Rhuxley 03-28-07, 09:34 PM	Vow is perfect, while yes it does allow them to keep these effects while they are tied up, and without relying on magic items, but there are a few stabilizers. Requisit Alignment: Not a big one, but its still there, if you otherwise were evil, you would just change alignments, but with thtis you lose the feat. Like isaid, not big but its there. No custimization: This is the huge one. You want your weapons to do fire damage? too bad. want to lose some AC enhancement bonus for the fortification ability, too bad. Etc. No custimization is ******. But in reality if your playing in a low magic world, it is Overpowered.
enygmatic_me 03-28-07, 09:38 PM	About the only time Vow of Poverty might be close to being considered overpowered would be in a low magic item game. Mechanically though, in a standard game a character properly equipped with items appropriate for their level will more often than not be more powerful then a character with the Vow of Poverty. Vow of Poverty is as much, if not more so, about role-playing than it is about power. In my opinion the class that actually benefits most from the Vow of Poverty would be the Druid.
e7way 03-28-07, 09:39 PM	depends on what levels it seem to me that around 12-16th level my VoP monk was TCIG (Toughest Character In the Group) but after that other characters have caught him and surpassed him. Once your parties wizard gets to 17-20 he will leave your VoP in the dust.
Dismas 03-28-07, 09:40 PM	It's not that the world is low magic, everything is dead standard, EL's and all, escept the DM's a little stingy...well...alot stingy with the magic items for the PCs. And with gold. (about 30 per encounter) So I figured, if I'm already paying the penalty, why not get the benefit?
MCage 03-28-07, 09:41 PM	Yeah i have to say its powerful but its not too powerful. While you can use consumables (ie potions) you have to be givin them, you cant just have a few on your belt or be handed one for later in the upcomming fight..that is without gimping yourself severly. The only thing i think might be a bit much is the massive amount of feats you can get off it if your a fighter (please dont start a fighter debate off that comment), sure you get Exalted off the vow and fighter feats off the class but ******* thats still alot
Dismas 03-28-07, 09:42 PM	Well, like I said, I've got a monk. Also, our group is fairly new, but I'm not new to dnd, and our Dm has ever played a character I think...
enygmatic_me 03-28-07, 09:45 PM	It's not that the world is low magic, everything is dead standard, EL's and all, escept the DM's a little stingy...well...alot stingy with the magic items for the PCs. And with gold. (about 30 per encounter) So I figured, if I'm already paying the penalty, why not get the benefit? Then that is a problem your DM must address. They must decide if they intentionally wish the campaign to remain low magic items. If so then you should exchange sacred vow and vow of poverty for other feats. If your DM wants the game to be a standard game then they need to actually start giving out magic items to the remainder of the group and still give you the option of exchanging your feats. Sounds to me that you have a DM that is a little unsure of their abilities and is afraid of accidentally giving your group to much in the way of items and, in being cautious, has ended up going in the opposite direction.
Dismas 03-28-07, 09:50 PM	Im not exactly sure that he knows how much equip. we should have....
snakebliskan 03-28-07, 11:41 PM	vow is best used on a human monk in the begining ie. 1st lvl so you get the extra feat.. that being said you will be a powerhouse until you get to mid-high lvls...ie around 12 maybe 13 if your lucky. but unless you are playing to higher lvls then you should be just fine. also you could eventually try for the saint template.. it rocks! My 12th lvl monk (human) saint was soo cool!
Krusk 03-29-07, 01:15 AM	It is probably too powerful in your game. you said your dm is very stingy with treasure and gold, the feat gives you average treasure and gold. So if the party is all at the same level of below average and you are doing fine. then you are "overpowered" for your game. Either point that out to the dm or simply pick a new feat that wont throw you over them in powerlevel. Seems he wants to run his game at a certian wealth for character level, and that feat is designed for an average one. If you are really set on it, you could compromise and tone the feat down for your game.
magenificent 03-29-07, 03:10 AM	Its been debated heavily before. The general consensus is that in an average campaign VoP is pretty average but not overpowered. It may be a bit strong at the lower levels but it will be surpassed by far at high levels. Minor things like DR can become a problem for a VoP character as he has no access to cold iron or silver; you can't even fly unless someone casts it on you. The real benefit of VoP is that you don't have to rely on encounters or the DM for your "loot". You know exactly what you're going to get. While its a hinderance at times due to lack of customization, in exchange you get stability. Thats most likely what your DM doesn't like about it, that it takes it out of his hands. You should discuss it with him and ask if hes intentionaly running a low magic game. If its just that hes new to DMing then his reservations are understandable. In which case I suggest pointing him to some reference tables to help him manage treasure, particularly these: This table shows the average treasure the party should receive for an encounter equal to their level: Treasure Values Per Encounter Table 3-3 (DMG pg. 51) This Table shows the average wealth that a character of any given level should possess: Character Wealth Table 5-1 (DMG pg. 135) Now while most people will say that these are of course only guidelines I think most would agree that they are the best way to go for first time DM as they are intended to provide fair play for everyone. In the average campaign VoP is not overpowered its more of an RP element. The fact that in a normaly quite materialistic world (as far as PCs go) that there is still those who would forsake such things makes a very compelling character to play. Or maybe another interesting twist on VoP would be a character who instead sees such dependance on material things to be a weakness or a crutch. Just because hes good doesn't mean he wouldn't be arrogant or even contemptuous with his Holier Than Thou disposition.
JulesCARV 03-29-07, 03:33 AM	What about having your monk receive benefits from Vow of Poverty that are of the level equal to the level at which the DMG guidelines claim your party should have about as much wealth as they do? For example, if your party is level 10, and most of your party has about 20,000 gp, then your VoP monk would get the benefits from Vow of Poverty as if he were level 7, since level 7 characters are supposed to have about 19,000 gp. The exception might be exalted feats. These could be gained every other level as normal, because 1) mechanically, having feats track a "virtual character level" rather than your actual character level is weird, and 2) Vow of Poverty isn't just paid for in wealth. It's paid for with two feats too, regardless of wealth, and the bonus exalted can help balance that aspect.
Ekkoe 04-08-07, 07:46 AM	Hello, I understand this thread is from a long time ago and kinda dead, but I'm still gonna post this here, if you don't mind... I'm DMing a homemade campaign, which is going to be the second time I seriously DM, and there was this monk character who said he wanted to take VoP. He was already going to level his way through Githzerei, so he had an AC of 22 on level 5, and he actually wanted to be LN. It didn't really fit into my story (him wanting to be LG allasudden), so I just said no. A druid with VoP is severely disadvantaged when he or she is not in Wild Shape, a sorcerer can't use robes, wands or expensive material components which provides a big disadvantage when VoP is taken, but a monk's only disadvantage is that he can't use magic rings or jewelery. Not enough for me. Another player wants to work his way to Apostle of Peace. Now THAT's a story. He can have his VoP anytime. Maybe a rather sloppy post, but what I'm trying to conclude is that when you doubt about whether or not letting a monk or any other player take VoP, look at the motives. Look at how it will effect his RPing, on how it will effect your story and on how it will effect the party. Don't like? Simply forbid it. You're the DM, your word counts. PS: I understand this post isn't very likely to still be of use to the author of the thread, but maybe it is to others.
Mirtek 04-08-07, 08:42 AM	Requisit Alignment: Not a big one, but its still there, if you otherwise were evil, you would just change alignments, but with thtis you lose the feat. Like isaid, not big but its there. Actually it's the biggest handycap you can have. You don't just have to be good, you have to be exalted. 99.9999% of the players don't get it. Exalted is being too good for this world, it's a completly unrealistic behaviour, it's basically not possible to be exalted on this world (especially as an adventurer it's outright impossible). Being exalted is something for people living save and sound on celestial planes like Elysium, but it's not possible faced with the harsh reality of daily live on a typical prime world.