Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dryhte 12-03-07, 05:53 PM	Note: These two feats try to capture the flexibility of the 'jo' or quarterstaff to a trained user in DND terms. They are meant to be used together with the quarterstaff strategy feat (don't really know the name) in the 'Complete Warrior', which stresses the defensive abilities of the jodoka... Please pick one of the following versions: Version A Jo-do adept [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse. The jo-do adept can the Weapon Finesse feat to apply her Dex modifier to attack rolls with a jo (quarterstaff) sized for her, even though it isn't a light weapon for her. Additionally, she can use the weapon to inflict nonlethal damage without receiving a penalty to her attack roll. Special: A monk may choose this as his bonus feat at 2nd level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. Jo-do master [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Jo-do adept. A jo-do adept can use her jo (quarterstaff) either as a double weapon (=normal), or as a reach weapon (10 ft). The 10ft reach works exactly like the reach of a spiked chain, allowing use against adjacent foes as well as those 10 ft away. The jo-do adept cannot use the jo as a double weapon, and cannot use the flurry of blows ability during a round in which she has used the jo as a reach weapon, and vice versa. Special: A monk may choose this as his bonus feat at 6th level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. Version B Jo-do adept [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff). The jo-do adept can apply her Dex modifier to attack rolls with a jo (quarterstaff) sized for her, even though it isn't a light weapon for her. Additionally, she can use the weapon to inflict nonlethal damage without receiving a penalty to her attack roll. Jo-do master [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), Jo-do adept. A jo-do adept can use her jo (quarterstaff) either as a double weapon (=normal), or as a reach weapon (10 ft). The 10ft reach works exactly like the reach of a spiked chain, allowing use against adjacent foes as well as those 10 ft away. The jo-do adept cannot use the jo as a double weapon, and cannot use the flurry of blows ability during a round in which she has used the jo as a reach weapon, and vice versa. Version C Jo-do adept [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff). The jo-do adept can apply her Dex modifier to attack rolls with a jo (quarterstaff) sized for her, even though it isn't a light weapon for her. Additionally, she can use the weapon to inflict nonlethal damage without receiving a penalty to her attack roll. Special: A monk may choose this as his bonus feat at 2nd level, even if he does not have the Weapon Finesse feat. Jo-do master [fighter] ----------- Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), Jo-do adept. A jo-do adept can use her jo (quarterstaff) either as a double weapon (=normal), or as a reach weapon (10 ft). The 10ft reach works exactly like the reach of a spiked chain, allowing use against adjacent foes as well as those 10 ft away. The jo-do adept cannot use the jo as a double weapon, and cannot use the flurry of blows ability during a round in which she has used the jo as a reach weapon, and vice versa. Special: A monk may choose this as his bonus feat at 6th level, even if he does not have the Weapon Finesse feat.
ragoftag 12-03-07, 08:46 PM	Interesting! How about defensive feats and a bonus to Balance?
Adrian_Crane 12-03-07, 09:18 PM	I like em. Very interesting, and pretty simple. Should also specify that it's not a double weapon when used with reach, just to cover that (even though it should be obvious)
dryhte 12-04-07, 08:06 AM	Interesting! How about defensive feats and a bonus to Balance? I think two-weapon defense covers this, as well as the quarterstaff tactical feat which gives +2 extra bonus to AC if you use expertise to boost your AC... As for the bonus to balance - meh ;) when you're fighting with it, you can't lean on it, can you?
scorpius123 12-04-07, 11:15 AM	since i dont think the feats are too strong, i would even consider dropping a prerequisite feat (probably weapon finesse) you might need to clarify when exactly the decision is made to use it as a double weapon or a reach weapon. I see a small problem with attacks of opportunity that occur before or after your turn (within the 10 ft threatened zone) so you should change/add :"until the beginning of your next turn"
dryhte 12-04-07, 11:34 AM	since i dont think the feats are too strong, i would even consider dropping a prerequisite feat (probably weapon finesse) I understand why, the feats aren't very powerful indeed, but it would be pointless to remove weapon finesse since the first feat specifically enables the use of 'Weapon Finesse' for this weapon... Do you feel it would be better to just make one feat, jo-do mastery, which gives the benefits of both feats featured here? you might need to clarify when exactly the decision is made to use it as a double weapon or a reach weapon. I see a small problem with attacks of opportunity that occur before or after your turn (within the 10 ft threatened zone) so you should change/add :"until the beginning of your next turn" Do you know of any other feat whose words I could copy? I find it hard to put this into one single sentence, but the idea is that you decide at the beginning of your turn whether you want to use your staff as a reach weapon or as a double weapon, and stick with this until the beginning of your next turn...
Shadowfax7 12-04-07, 12:03 PM	Do you feel it would be better to just make one feat, jo-do mastery, which gives the benefits of both feats featured here? No, allowing Weapon Finesse to work with quarterstaffs and giving them reach is too much for 1 feat. However, the Jo-do Adept feat does have too many prereqs for what it provides. I would remove Weapon Focus (quarterstaff) as a prereq, but leave the benefits of the feat as is. The Jo-do Master feat should have Weapon Finess and Jo-do Adept as prereqs. Providing 10' reach on a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse and as a double weapon, is a good feat. Weapon Focus (quarterstaff) is a fairly good stand-alone feat for any Monk taking the other 2 feats anyway.
Vharuck 12-04-07, 01:03 PM	They're a little oddly-worded, but really I don't think game-breaking (yes, if the feat applied to any double weapon it would be slightly too good, but it only applies to the 1d6 damage of a simple two-handed weapon). Also, a fighting staff does not improve balance. The poles used by tight-rope walkers are extremely flexible and have weighted ends so that they droop. If used in a fight, I'd say that a tight-rope walker's pole would snap like a toothpick.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-04-07, 02:26 PM	Adept should just give a Weapon Finesse effect for Q-staves without actually requiring Weapon Finesse. Because, really weapon finesse is going to be a wasted feat.
dryhte 12-05-07, 06:01 AM	Thanks all, please keep the comments coming, afterwards I'll compile them and change the feats accordingly... before asking the DM's in question whether I can use them ;) regards, d.
dryhte 12-05-07, 11:16 AM	My own main problem with both feats is that you can't have them both as a straight monk before level 9 (since you need to be level 3 before you can take Weapon Finesse)... but I guess there isn't much to be done about this (except taking a fighter level)
Vharuck 12-05-07, 12:13 PM	My own main problem with both feats is that you can't have them both as a straight monk before level 9 (since you need to be level 3 before you can take Weapon Finesse)... but I guess there isn't much to be done about this (except taking a fighter level) What if you add- "Special: A monk may choose this as his bonus feat at 1st/2nd/6th level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites." Then the monks can get their hands on these feats sooner.
dryhte 12-06-07, 07:11 AM	Good! Thanks! I changed the original post - please choose which of the two versions you'd prefer as a DM/as a player... I personally lean towards version B, as I think it's more playable than version A, without being broken. Who agrees?
Shadowfax7 12-06-07, 09:01 AM	Well my choice would be Version C, which would be Version A w/o the Special line. I feel there is no need for it. A Human Monk could already get Jo-do Adept at 1st level and Jo-do master at 3rd w/Version C. I think that is more than fair. A non-human Monk could get Jo-do Adept at 3rd and Jo-do Adept at 6th, almost equivalent to your Version A. One level difference from Version A not being a big deal. However, making the prereq actually a prereq rather than just an easy by-pass. Any staff-using Monk would take the Version B prereq, thus there is no "real" prereq. The Weapon Finesse prereq on the other hand makes sense for the feat and not every Monk would take. It makes choosing the feat an actual choice.
dryhte 12-06-07, 09:38 AM	A Human Monk could already get Jo-do Adept at 1st level and Jo-do master at 3rd w/Version C. I think that is more than fair. A non-human Monk could get Jo-do Adept at 3rd and Jo-do Adept at 6th, almost equivalent to your Version A. One level difference from Version A not being a big deal. How is that? A human monk (or indeed, a monk of any race) can only take Weapon Finesse at level 3 (since you need BAB+1, and it's not one of the bonus feats a monk can take at levels 1 or 2), so the earliest he can take Adept is at level 6, and the earliest he can take Master is at level 9... I think that's a bit steep... I would support your version C if Finesse were a monk bonus feat, or if there were another way of taking at level Mnk1.
Shadowfax7 12-06-07, 04:28 PM	My mistake, I always forget the +1 BAB requirement for Weapon Finesse. Since I never liked it, it doesn't want to stick in my memory. I guess then I would have to go with Version A.
dryhte 12-13-07, 08:47 AM	Bump... nobody else interested? d. (ps - I hate having to add the 'Monks can take this feat at level 2' because you still don't have Finesse at that point, so taking a feat that allows you to use finesse on the quarterstaff, without having finesse at that moment, feels really silly. I will add a version C which requires Finesse for non monks, but does not rely on having finesse for its use.)