Jump and Tumble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Jump and Tumble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
No-man
10-19-07, 05:21 PM It recently came up in a gaming session where a rogue wanted to jump down 25'. He argued that after successful Jump check to effectively reduce the falling distance to 15', he then could attempt a Tumble check to further reduce the falling damage to 5', and avoid damage. The DM ruled that the two skills do not stack, but the player maintained that one follows the other and the action should be allowed.

There was plenty of room for him to Tumble upon landing so space is not an issue.

We use basic 3.5 in our campaign. Thoughts? Discussion?
Eerongal
10-19-07, 05:45 PM No reason you can't use them both. They're both part of a move action, tumble at the bottom of the jump, jump at the top of the cliff/whatever, they both are part of a move action meaning they're essentially free actions, don't provide any kind of name bonus, so in conclusion there is no reason they shouldnt work together.
InkBlot
10-19-07, 05:51 PM Eerongal is right. They can both work on the same fall.

In all the games I've played in it's been standard procedure for nimble characters. Other characters, such as barbarians with ludicrous strength scores but no ranks in tumble, benefit from one method but not the other.

It's been argued on these boards, and at my gametable too, a bazillion times. It's legal by the rules, it's logical, and it's balanced.
Lokathor
10-19-07, 05:58 PM Ever seen any "street-running" videos off youtube? The "basic" cool technique involves jumping off something (deliberate jump check) and doing a roll as you land (tumble) so that you can sprint, go off a 20ft ledge, and then keep on sprinting.

eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-amd36SRbJw&mode=related around 2:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD0B3sC-lY4&mode=related around 0:40

there are many other such videos.

So, it's clearly possible for a trained person to do such a thing in real life. I'm of the opinion that DnD should let you do anything real life does in addition to all the fantastical things.

On top of that, there's nothing in the skills to prevent them "stacking". If you make dc 15 jump you subract 10ft from the fall. If you make dc 15 tumble, you subtract 10ft from the fall. You can subtract more than once.
vorpo
10-19-07, 06:08 PM Hmm, where is the info on using Jump skill to eliminate falling (partially)?
No-man
10-19-07, 06:46 PM Thanks for the responses everyone.

Hmm, where is the info on using Jump skill to eliminate falling (partially)?

The PH, and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) among other places. Look under "Jumping Down".

Google search will turn up a plethora of sites.
No-man
10-19-07, 06:55 PM Additional questions for the previous situation.

1) Attack at the end of movement. After the aforementioned Jump/Tumble, since it was only move actions then the character could make an attack at the end of the move (assuming of course no more than the normal move was taken)

2) For any future Jumps, if the character intended to land ON an enemy, what are the opinions in this case?
Lokathor
10-19-07, 10:35 PM Allow the attack if (and only if) he makes the checks.

"Death From Above" attacks are probably just charges that make a grapple attack in place of a weapon attack. I'd give an extra +2 to hit over the normal charge bonus, assuming the person didn't know they were going to get jumped.
Greco
10-20-07, 03:00 AM CityScape tactical feats Roof Walker & Jumper has an answer to question one.

If you land on an enemy it would count as a slam attack in which you would add 1d6 for each 10 ft fell plus yourself as damage.
ibayboy
10-20-07, 08:46 AM You can't use them both at the same time because they are doing the same thing.
A successful Jump down treats the fall as 10ft less, but it is still a 25ft fall. So then the sucessful Tumble check treats the fall as 10ft less as well. Neither check makes the actual distance fallen shorter.
1 ton ghost
10-20-07, 03:05 PM i may not agree w/ the reasoning, but i think i read a FAQ or dug around enough in the PHB to find that they are both legal and elligible during a fall.
some ppl exploit this by taking a 1/2 rank in Tumble, namely for the possible negation of an AoO, but also to allow the chance to reduce the fall dmg.
Lokathor
10-20-07, 03:18 PM I wouldn't call that an exploit. They might as well take some more and have an actual chance of negating an AoO or 10ft of a fall.
1 ton ghost
10-20-07, 03:32 PM I wouldn't call that an exploit. They might as well take some more and have an actual chance of negating an AoO or 10ft of a fall.

yes, i'm aware of the marvels of addition and subtraction given DCs.
i thought it was understood that Tumble is trained only though...
Lokathor
10-20-07, 03:55 PM Well yeah, but if you're going to make a skill be not at full power, it's almost a waste of the skill point later on.

Take Martial Maneuver(something from desert wind) and get Tumble as a class skill permanently.
Vegepygmy
10-21-07, 02:22 AM i may not agree w/ the reasoning, but i think i read a FAQ or dug around enough in the PHB to find that they are both legal and elligible during a fall.I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this claim, and ibayboy's analysis is 100% correct: both Jump and Tumble allow one to treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. So if you succeed on both checks, a 40-foot fall is still treated as a 30-foot fall...not a 20-foot fall.

some ppl exploit this by taking a 1/2 rank in Tumble, namely for the possible negation of an AoO, but also to allow the chance to reduce the fall dmg.Those ppl are misinformed.

PHB, page 66:
Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it.
draco1119
10-21-07, 05:04 AM Those ppl are misinformed.

PHB, page 66:
Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it.
Actually, there's a Feat in Races of Destiny that trumps this. Give me a moment and I'll look it up...
Lokathor
10-21-07, 06:10 AM I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this claim, and ibayboy's analysis is 100% correct: both Jump and Tumble allow one to treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. So if you succeed on both checks, a 40-foot fall is still treated as a 30-foot fall...not a 20-foot fall.
I still think you're being inane about it.

*One guy can flip super well and ignore some damage.
*One guy can jump super well and ignore some damage.
*A third guy who can flip super well AND jump super well only ignores the same amount of damage? That's just stupid.

You make the jump check when you jump, later when you land, you make a tumble check. The jump check that succeeded make the fall already count as only 30ft instead of 40. Then the tumble check goes into effect on the 30ft, making it 20ft. It's not as if you can't tumble for a benefit when you happen to purposefully jump off something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
No-man 10-19-07, 05:21 PM	It recently came up in a gaming session where a rogue wanted to jump down 25'. He argued that after successful Jump check to effectively reduce the falling distance to 15', he then could attempt a Tumble check to further reduce the falling damage to 5', and avoid damage. The DM ruled that the two skills do not stack, but the player maintained that one follows the other and the action should be allowed. There was plenty of room for him to Tumble upon landing so space is not an issue. We use basic 3.5 in our campaign. Thoughts? Discussion?
Eerongal 10-19-07, 05:45 PM	No reason you can't use them both. They're both part of a move action, tumble at the bottom of the jump, jump at the top of the cliff/whatever, they both are part of a move action meaning they're essentially free actions, don't provide any kind of name bonus, so in conclusion there is no reason they shouldnt work together.
InkBlot 10-19-07, 05:51 PM	Eerongal is right. They can both work on the same fall. In all the games I've played in it's been standard procedure for nimble characters. Other characters, such as barbarians with ludicrous strength scores but no ranks in tumble, benefit from one method but not the other. It's been argued on these boards, and at my gametable too, a bazillion times. It's legal by the rules, it's logical, and it's balanced.
Lokathor 10-19-07, 05:58 PM	Ever seen any "street-running" videos off youtube? The "basic" cool technique involves jumping off something (deliberate jump check) and doing a roll as you land (tumble) so that you can sprint, go off a 20ft ledge, and then keep on sprinting. eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-amd36SRbJw&mode=related around 2:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD0B3sC-lY4&mode=related around 0:40 there are many other such videos. So, it's clearly possible for a trained person to do such a thing in real life. I'm of the opinion that DnD should let you do anything real life does in addition to all the fantastical things. On top of that, there's nothing in the skills to prevent them "stacking". If you make dc 15 jump you subract 10ft from the fall. If you make dc 15 tumble, you subtract 10ft from the fall. You can subtract more than once.
vorpo 10-19-07, 06:08 PM	Hmm, where is the info on using Jump skill to eliminate falling (partially)?
No-man 10-19-07, 06:46 PM	Thanks for the responses everyone. Hmm, where is the info on using Jump skill to eliminate falling (partially)? The PH, and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) among other places. Look under "Jumping Down". Google search will turn up a plethora of sites.
No-man 10-19-07, 06:55 PM	Additional questions for the previous situation. 1) Attack at the end of movement. After the aforementioned Jump/Tumble, since it was only move actions then the character could make an attack at the end of the move (assuming of course no more than the normal move was taken) 2) For any future Jumps, if the character intended to land ON an enemy, what are the opinions in this case?
Lokathor 10-19-07, 10:35 PM	Allow the attack if (and only if) he makes the checks. "Death From Above" attacks are probably just charges that make a grapple attack in place of a weapon attack. I'd give an extra +2 to hit over the normal charge bonus, assuming the person didn't know they were going to get jumped.
Greco 10-20-07, 03:00 AM	CityScape tactical feats Roof Walker & Jumper has an answer to question one. If you land on an enemy it would count as a slam attack in which you would add 1d6 for each 10 ft fell plus yourself as damage.
ibayboy 10-20-07, 08:46 AM	You can't use them both at the same time because they are doing the same thing. A successful Jump down treats the fall as 10ft less, but it is still a 25ft fall. So then the sucessful Tumble check treats the fall as 10ft less as well. Neither check makes the actual distance fallen shorter.
1 ton ghost 10-20-07, 03:05 PM	i may not agree w/ the reasoning, but i think i read a FAQ or dug around enough in the PHB to find that they are both legal and elligible during a fall. some ppl exploit this by taking a 1/2 rank in Tumble, namely for the possible negation of an AoO, but also to allow the chance to reduce the fall dmg.
Lokathor 10-20-07, 03:18 PM	I wouldn't call that an exploit. They might as well take some more and have an actual chance of negating an AoO or 10ft of a fall.
1 ton ghost 10-20-07, 03:32 PM	I wouldn't call that an exploit. They might as well take some more and have an actual chance of negating an AoO or 10ft of a fall. yes, i'm aware of the marvels of addition and subtraction given DCs. i thought it was understood that Tumble is trained only though...
Lokathor 10-20-07, 03:55 PM	Well yeah, but if you're going to make a skill be not at full power, it's almost a waste of the skill point later on. Take Martial Maneuver(something from desert wind) and get Tumble as a class skill permanently.
Vegepygmy 10-21-07, 02:22 AM	i may not agree w/ the reasoning, but i think i read a FAQ or dug around enough in the PHB to find that they are both legal and elligible during a fall.I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this claim, and ibayboy's analysis is 100% correct: both Jump and Tumble allow one to treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. So if you succeed on both checks, a 40-foot fall is still treated as a 30-foot fall...not a 20-foot fall. some ppl exploit this by taking a 1/2 rank in Tumble, namely for the possible negation of an AoO, but also to allow the chance to reduce the fall dmg.Those ppl are misinformed. PHB, page 66: Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it.
draco1119 10-21-07, 05:04 AM	Those ppl are misinformed. PHB, page 66: Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. Actually, there's a Feat in Races of Destiny that trumps this. Give me a moment and I'll look it up...
Lokathor 10-21-07, 06:10 AM	I can't find anything in the FAQ to support this claim, and ibayboy's analysis is 100% correct: both Jump and Tumble allow one to treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. So if you succeed on both checks, a 40-foot fall is still treated as a 30-foot fall...not a 20-foot fall. I still think you're being inane about it. One guy can flip super well and ignore some damage. One guy can jump super well and ignore some damage. *A third guy who can flip super well AND jump super well only ignores the same amount of damage? That's just stupid. You make the jump check when you jump, later when you land, you make a tumble check. The jump check that succeeded make the fall already count as only 30ft instead of 40. Then the tumble check goes into effect on the 30ft, making it 20ft. It's not as if you can't tumble for a benefit when you happen to purposefully jump off something.