Jump quandary... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Jump quandary... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NeueRegel
07-27-07, 02:36 PM Okay, 3.5 Core, this from the Jump Skill:

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

Now... My monk has a +49 (+4 more with the Run feat) to his Jump skill check. That means, with a 20' running start, I can clear 50' no fail, or even 70' on a natural 20.

However, my movement rate is actually 60'.

Now, a 20' running start and a 50' jump equals 70'... 10' more than my 60' movement rate...

What does this mean, in reference to the second part of the above quote???

Neue
KoraktheBarbarin
07-27-07, 02:38 PM Wouldn't your maximum movement for the round be 240' at a full run?
NeueRegel
07-27-07, 02:41 PM I'm not taking a full run action, just my movement action for the round, either before or after my standard action. But say it's a 50' chasm, and I already took my attack, then my 20' running start. Do I get 40' across, and then some invisible wall springs into existance with a little sign, "round over!", and I slip into the depths?

Neue
foxtail
07-27-07, 02:43 PM Because your movement rate is 60, you can only complete 60 feet of movement in the course of a move action; that extra 10 feet of jumping distance has to be completed in your standard action, which makes that action useless for anything else besides continuing movement, or, say, finishing a charge. If the move action ends your turn (you began movement after your standard action, for example), you're effectively in mid-air until your turn comes around once more, at which point you must immediately use a move action to complete the jump.

But no, you don't instantly fall when you reach the extent of your land speed. It's possible (though improbable) with a truly prodigious Jump check, to make a leap that has to be completed over the course of several turns.
penchant
07-27-07, 02:53 PM If you do not have enough movement to complete the jump then you must take movement at the beginning of your next turn the next round.

For example. You make a 50' jump with your 20' running start but you only have 60' of movement. Now, assuming you already took a standard action this round, you run 20' and then make your jump. You only have enough time to move 40' this round. So on your turn next round you must immediatly take a move action completing the last 10' of the jump. You can continue the move action with 50' more feet of movement or go ahead with your standard action. you cannot take a full round action since you were forced to use a move action this round.

The division does not represent the fact that you were hanging in midair while other people took their turns, but simply that other people were able to take actions while you were taking the time to complete an absurdly long jump. Recall that actions and rounds represent packets of time.

Imagine instead that a dwarf in full plate armor has an absurd jump check (lets say +50) but his movement is still 20'. He makes a jump and his roll (even with his armor and movement penalties) is 50. He uses a move action to take a 20' running start, then has to use another move action to begin the jump. This carries him another 20' this round. Next round he uses two move actions to get the last 50' of his jump and must then end his turn. Most likely he wound like to consider the jump to be a charge so he can at least get an attack off with the double move.

Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules.
tarkin
07-27-07, 02:54 PM That is correct.

The key thing to remember is that the sequential actions is a conveience for the players, not a realistic listing of occurences.

That is, you do not wait till everyone else goes, then go yourself while everyone else waits.

Instead everyone is engaging in continuous actions.

Occassionally you will end your turn 'describing/rolling what you do', while your character is in the middle of an action.

Just as you can cast a spell that has a 10 minute casting time, you can also do a jump that will take more than six seconds to complete.
NeueRegel
07-27-07, 03:01 PM Great... so now I'll have visions of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in my head, of slow motion/stop motion jumping scenes...
Grumman
07-27-07, 03:30 PM A bit off-topic, but anyway...
Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules.
Air time is dependant on the character's initial upwards velocity, and to cover the same distance, a slower character would have to make a jump which was closer to the 45 degree mark (ignoring air resistance, a 45-degree angle will produce the longest jump for a given initial velocity). Since they are putting more effort into going upwards and less into going forwards, it takes longer to go the same horizontal distance.
NeueRegel
07-27-07, 03:35 PM BTW, everybody... Thanks for the clear and concise answers. Very obvious, now that it's been explained to me, how to just move it into the next round.

Neue
ArcTan
07-27-07, 07:49 PM Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules.

Ki.

Anytime you see something done by a Monk or Martial Adept or, indeed, any non-Wizard that looks like it makes no sense, just remember: Ki did it.
tvar1
07-27-07, 08:15 PM I never thought about it before, but you could run into some weird situations if you somehow manage to make a jump that spans several rounds. Since you have to take move actions to complete your jump, what if some rounds you decide to take double moves, while on other turns you decide to take move and standard actions. It seems like you would be able to accelerate/decelerate mid jump... :thinks:
ArcTan
07-27-07, 08:49 PM No, not really. You can't do anything else until your Jump is finished, so it's assumed that for every round you're still jumping you're taking all your available actions to jump (i.e. you're double-moving on every round).
Captain_Kobold
07-27-07, 09:37 PM Since in a jump you have to move in a straight line, and can't really avoid attacks much, I would consider any jump further than double your move to be resolved as a run action.
penchant
07-27-07, 11:34 PM No, not really. You can't do anything else until your Jump is finished, so it's assumed that for every round you're still jumping you're taking all your available actions to jump (i.e. you're double-moving on every round).

Ah, but this is what spring attack is for! and where would we be without our mid leap sword battles?

Actually I'm not too sure about spring attack. But since the jump is considered one single large move action, spring attack should allow you to make an attack mid move. While it would be dubious on reading Spring attack, I would allow it as a house rule. The question is, could you do it only once per jump or once per round?
Steidas
07-28-07, 12:16 AM Great... so now I'll have visions of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in my head, of slow motion/stop motion jumping scenes...
Tired of those grease at your feat effects? Just jump at the end of your turn! Those warrior-types ALWAYS tripping you? Not anymore with RANKS IN JUMP!

Just be carefull, you don't want to get bullrushed in the air :D
ArcTan
07-28-07, 01:43 AM A bit off-topic, but anyway...

Air time is dependant on the character's initial upwards velocity, and to cover the same distance, a slower character would have to make a jump which was closer to the 45 degree mark (ignoring air resistance, a 45-degree angle will produce the longest jump for a given initial velocity). Since they are putting more effort into going upwards and less into going forwards, it takes longer to go the same horizontal distance.

Technically this is not true. All long jumps are assumed to be made at the same angle, because all jumps crest at 1/4 the horizontal distance jumped.

The explanation is really just that you jump faster if you have a faster move speed, because you have stronger muscles that propel you harder. The Human Monk is jumping faster through the air because his stronger legs (and ki) push him harder. Not really that weird, although the *degree* of difference can be wonky (but that's D&D for you).
ArcTan
07-28-07, 01:46 AM Ah, but this is what spring attack is for! and where would we be without our mid leap sword battles?

Actually I'm not too sure about spring attack. But since the jump is considered one single large move action, spring attack should allow you to make an attack mid move. While it would be dubious on reading Spring attack, I would allow it as a house rule. The question is, could you do it only once per jump or once per round?

I would rule that one Jump check is one move action, and the actions you lose in later rounds are actions "penalized" from you to finish the first action, rather than being separate actions in and of themselves.

Because, really, it does not make sense that you could "pause" in midair to make a spring attack and therefore land later than you otherwise would have.
penchant
07-28-07, 11:44 AM true, but it also does not make sense that a character can have a hang time in excess of 6 seconds and, being near epic, not be able to take a swipe at someone as they pass by. I saw a video of a guy somersaulting on a trampoline and firing a longbow at targets while in midair. Why couldn't a fantasy character with Boots S&S do the same thing? Or leap over someone and attack from above, or even the traditional midair kung fu battle? I can hit someone while jumping! There should the be a mechanic.
jaelis
07-28-07, 02:18 PM I think you should be able to attack in mid jump with spring attack. Nothing in the feat limits the type of movement you're allowed to use.

Yes, it makes the timing seem a little funny (since you're in the air longer)... why worry about it? But if you just can't let it go, then say you "bounce" of the monster from the force of your attack, letting you stay in the air longer than you otherwise would.
ArcTan
07-28-07, 08:07 PM *shrug* It's not a big deal. It's more an open hole in the rules than anything else (Jump checks needed to get these absurdly long hang times are pretty hard to make).
penchant
07-29-07, 12:37 AM *shrug* It's not a big deal. It's more an open hole in the rules than anything else (Jump checks needed to get these absurdly long hang times are pretty hard to make).

Ironically you just need a jump check that exceeds your movement. If you have a 10 movement, then you need a jump check of 20 to exceed your double move for the round (including the -8 penalty for having a 10 movement). Thats +18 and a roll of 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 07-27-07, 02:36 PM	Okay, 3.5 Core, this from the Jump Skill: All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled. Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round. Now... My monk has a +49 (+4 more with the Run feat) to his Jump skill check. That means, with a 20' running start, I can clear 50' no fail, or even 70' on a natural 20. However, my movement rate is actually 60'. Now, a 20' running start and a 50' jump equals 70'... 10' more than my 60' movement rate... What does this mean, in reference to the second part of the above quote??? Neue
KoraktheBarbarin 07-27-07, 02:38 PM	Wouldn't your maximum movement for the round be 240' at a full run?
NeueRegel 07-27-07, 02:41 PM	I'm not taking a full run action, just my movement action for the round, either before or after my standard action. But say it's a 50' chasm, and I already took my attack, then my 20' running start. Do I get 40' across, and then some invisible wall springs into existance with a little sign, "round over!", and I slip into the depths? Neue
foxtail 07-27-07, 02:43 PM	Because your movement rate is 60, you can only complete 60 feet of movement in the course of a move action; that extra 10 feet of jumping distance has to be completed in your standard action, which makes that action useless for anything else besides continuing movement, or, say, finishing a charge. If the move action ends your turn (you began movement after your standard action, for example), you're effectively in mid-air until your turn comes around once more, at which point you must immediately use a move action to complete the jump. But no, you don't instantly fall when you reach the extent of your land speed. It's possible (though improbable) with a truly prodigious Jump check, to make a leap that has to be completed over the course of several turns.
penchant 07-27-07, 02:53 PM	If you do not have enough movement to complete the jump then you must take movement at the beginning of your next turn the next round. For example. You make a 50' jump with your 20' running start but you only have 60' of movement. Now, assuming you already took a standard action this round, you run 20' and then make your jump. You only have enough time to move 40' this round. So on your turn next round you must immediatly take a move action completing the last 10' of the jump. You can continue the move action with 50' more feet of movement or go ahead with your standard action. you cannot take a full round action since you were forced to use a move action this round. The division does not represent the fact that you were hanging in midair while other people took their turns, but simply that other people were able to take actions while you were taking the time to complete an absurdly long jump. Recall that actions and rounds represent packets of time. Imagine instead that a dwarf in full plate armor has an absurd jump check (lets say +50) but his movement is still 20'. He makes a jump and his roll (even with his armor and movement penalties) is 50. He uses a move action to take a 20' running start, then has to use another move action to begin the jump. This carries him another 20' this round. Next round he uses two move actions to get the last 50' of his jump and must then end his turn. Most likely he wound like to consider the jump to be a charge so he can at least get an attack off with the double move. Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules.
tarkin 07-27-07, 02:54 PM	That is correct. The key thing to remember is that the sequential actions is a conveience for the players, not a realistic listing of occurences. That is, you do not wait till everyone else goes, then go yourself while everyone else waits. Instead everyone is engaging in continuous actions. Occassionally you will end your turn 'describing/rolling what you do', while your character is in the middle of an action. Just as you can cast a spell that has a 10 minute casting time, you can also do a jump that will take more than six seconds to complete.
NeueRegel 07-27-07, 03:01 PM	Great... so now I'll have visions of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in my head, of slow motion/stop motion jumping scenes...
Grumman 07-27-07, 03:30 PM	A bit off-topic, but anyway... Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules. Air time is dependant on the character's initial upwards velocity, and to cover the same distance, a slower character would have to make a jump which was closer to the 45 degree mark (ignoring air resistance, a 45-degree angle will produce the longest jump for a given initial velocity). Since they are putting more effort into going upwards and less into going forwards, it takes longer to go the same horizontal distance.
NeueRegel 07-27-07, 03:35 PM	BTW, everybody... Thanks for the clear and concise answers. Very obvious, now that it's been explained to me, how to just move it into the next round. Neue
ArcTan 07-27-07, 07:49 PM	Nobody knows why a human monk would actually take less time to jump the same distance as a dwarf but thems the rules. Ki. Anytime you see something done by a Monk or Martial Adept or, indeed, any non-Wizard that looks like it makes no sense, just remember: Ki did it.
tvar1 07-27-07, 08:15 PM	I never thought about it before, but you could run into some weird situations if you somehow manage to make a jump that spans several rounds. Since you have to take move actions to complete your jump, what if some rounds you decide to take double moves, while on other turns you decide to take move and standard actions. It seems like you would be able to accelerate/decelerate mid jump... :thinks:
ArcTan 07-27-07, 08:49 PM	No, not really. You can't do anything else until your Jump is finished, so it's assumed that for every round you're still jumping you're taking all your available actions to jump (i.e. you're double-moving on every round).
Captain_Kobold 07-27-07, 09:37 PM	Since in a jump you have to move in a straight line, and can't really avoid attacks much, I would consider any jump further than double your move to be resolved as a run action.
penchant 07-27-07, 11:34 PM	No, not really. You can't do anything else until your Jump is finished, so it's assumed that for every round you're still jumping you're taking all your available actions to jump (i.e. you're double-moving on every round). Ah, but this is what spring attack is for! and where would we be without our mid leap sword battles? Actually I'm not too sure about spring attack. But since the jump is considered one single large move action, spring attack should allow you to make an attack mid move. While it would be dubious on reading Spring attack, I would allow it as a house rule. The question is, could you do it only once per jump or once per round?
Steidas 07-28-07, 12:16 AM	Great... so now I'll have visions of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in my head, of slow motion/stop motion jumping scenes... Tired of those grease at your feat effects? Just jump at the end of your turn! Those warrior-types ALWAYS tripping you? Not anymore with RANKS IN JUMP! Just be carefull, you don't want to get bullrushed in the air :D
ArcTan 07-28-07, 01:43 AM	A bit off-topic, but anyway... Air time is dependant on the character's initial upwards velocity, and to cover the same distance, a slower character would have to make a jump which was closer to the 45 degree mark (ignoring air resistance, a 45-degree angle will produce the longest jump for a given initial velocity). Since they are putting more effort into going upwards and less into going forwards, it takes longer to go the same horizontal distance. Technically this is not true. All long jumps are assumed to be made at the same angle, because all jumps crest at 1/4 the horizontal distance jumped. The explanation is really just that you jump faster if you have a faster move speed, because you have stronger muscles that propel you harder. The Human Monk is jumping faster through the air because his stronger legs (and ki) push him harder. Not really that weird, although the degree of difference can be wonky (but that's D&D for you).
ArcTan 07-28-07, 01:46 AM	Ah, but this is what spring attack is for! and where would we be without our mid leap sword battles? Actually I'm not too sure about spring attack. But since the jump is considered one single large move action, spring attack should allow you to make an attack mid move. While it would be dubious on reading Spring attack, I would allow it as a house rule. The question is, could you do it only once per jump or once per round? I would rule that one Jump check is one move action, and the actions you lose in later rounds are actions "penalized" from you to finish the first action, rather than being separate actions in and of themselves. Because, really, it does not make sense that you could "pause" in midair to make a spring attack and therefore land later than you otherwise would have.
penchant 07-28-07, 11:44 AM	true, but it also does not make sense that a character can have a hang time in excess of 6 seconds and, being near epic, not be able to take a swipe at someone as they pass by. I saw a video of a guy somersaulting on a trampoline and firing a longbow at targets while in midair. Why couldn't a fantasy character with Boots S&S do the same thing? Or leap over someone and attack from above, or even the traditional midair kung fu battle? I can hit someone while jumping! There should the be a mechanic.
jaelis 07-28-07, 02:18 PM	I think you should be able to attack in mid jump with spring attack. Nothing in the feat limits the type of movement you're allowed to use. Yes, it makes the timing seem a little funny (since you're in the air longer)... why worry about it? But if you just can't let it go, then say you "bounce" of the monster from the force of your attack, letting you stay in the air longer than you otherwise would.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 08:07 PM	shrug It's not a big deal. It's more an open hole in the rules than anything else (Jump checks needed to get these absurdly long hang times are pretty hard to make).
penchant 07-29-07, 12:37 AM	shrug It's not a big deal. It's more an open hole in the rules than anything else (Jump checks needed to get these absurdly long hang times are pretty hard to make). Ironically you just need a jump check that exceeds your movement. If you have a 10 movement, then you need a jump check of 20 to exceed your double move for the round (including the -8 penalty for having a 10 movement). Thats +18 and a roll of 10.