Post/Author/DateTime	Post
curtis_ownby 04-24-08, 09:10 PM	I do not know if someone has already found this, but here it is any way. You can use martial Study to get high level maneuvers that you normaly could not get since you do not have worry about initiator level. The reason for this is on page 44 under LEVEL. The only thing listed under level in the maneuvers is when any given class can get the maneuver. Since when you get a maneuver with the feat martial study you do not even need to have levels in any of the ToB classes to take the feat. This explanes way you can only take the feat three times. You still have to have the prerequisites to take the maneuver, but there are some good hight level maneuvers that do not have any prerequisites at all.:D Makes fighter feats look a lot better since they can get some high level maneuvers early on.;)
pigknight 04-24-08, 09:42 PM	Still need Initiator level.
Johannixx 04-24-08, 11:49 PM	Check out page 39. It clearly states that if you have no martial adept levels, your initiator level is 1/2 your class level. Then, under "selecting martial maneuvers", it clearly states the initiator level needed to learn maneuvers of a given level. So, straight Fighter maxes out at 5th level maneuvers, because a 20th-level Fighter has an initiator level of 10, which works out to 5th-level maneuvers.
curtis_ownby 04-25-08, 11:50 PM	I did read page 39 and it does tell you how to determine initiator level. This does not mean that it limits what maneuvers I can get with the Martial Study feat, since initiator level is not a prerequisite to getting a maneuver. As far as what is under selecting martial maneuvers it is takeing about your level in a martial adept class when it comes to getting new maneuvers not getting them with the feat Martial Study. What you are talking about is what I thought for a long time until I started to make some new maneuvers for a game I am going to be running. On page 44 it talks about how you can learn any maneuver using the Martial Study feat, but you still have to meet the prerequisites. Initiator level is not part of the prerequisites but part of the level of the maneuver. That is what it is talking about on page 44 when it brings up the Martial Study feat is that maneuver level does not matter when it cames to learning maneuvers using the feat.
mplindustries 04-26-08, 02:08 AM	I did read page 39 and it does tell you how to determine initiator level. This does not mean that it limits what maneuvers I can get with the Martial Study feat, since initiator level is not a prerequisite to getting a maneuver. As far as what is under selecting martial maneuvers it is takeing about your level in a martial adept class when it comes to getting new maneuvers not getting them with the feat Martial Study. What you are talking about is what I thought for a long time until I started to make some new maneuvers for a game I am going to be running. On page 44 it talks about how you can learn any maneuver using the Martial Study feat, but you still have to meet the prerequisites. Initiator level is not part of the prerequisites but part of the level of the maneuver. That is what it is talking about on page 44 when it brings up the Martial Study feat is that maneuver level does not matter when it cames to learning maneuvers using the feat. I applaud your effort here, but its just not true. Note on page 44 that under the "Level" heading, it states, "You can learn any maneuver you like by choosing the Martial Study feat, regardless of class." (Emphasis Mine) Then, under the "Prerequisite" heading, it states, "In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver..." (Emphasis Mine) Martial Study lets you bypass class requirements, but does not let you bypass level requirements. Additionally, on page 39, stop reading the "Selecting Martial Maneuvers" section so absolutely and re-read the "Multiclass Chararacters" section. It is very clear that you need a certain Initiator level before you can learn a particular level maneuver. Anyway, it was a good try in the spirit of optimization.
curtis_ownby 04-26-08, 11:47 AM	Under multiclass characters when it talks about learning a maneuver by attaining a new level in martial adept class. So this is not talking about the feat. The reason I think it is talking about level not being a apart of the feat is that the statement was under level which would inply that it is talking about level as well as class. Also when level is listed in a maneuver it is always class level:Swordsage 1. Yes I know it could be clearer. I was showing other players what I found out about the Martial Study feat, that does not mean the DM has to use the feat this why. I know you will most likely still not agree with me, but I am just showing you where I got this from and why I think it is the right why to look at the Martial Study feat.:) Now where would I put a list of new maneuvers that I am making on the sit, since maneuvers are not feats, skills, spells, or, skills. I would think under feats and skills but I am not sure.:confused:
SavevsDeath 04-26-08, 04:18 PM	Under multiclass characters when it talks about learning a maneuver by attaining a new level in martial adept class. So this is not talking about the feat. The reason I think it is talking about level not being a apart of the feat is that the statement was under level which would inply that it is talking about level as well as class. Also when level is listed in a maneuver it is always class level:Swordsage 1. Yes I know it could be clearer. I was showing other players what I found out about the Martial Study feat, that does not mean the DM has to use the feat this why. I know you will most likely still not agree with me, but I am just showing you where I got this from and why I think it is the right why to look at the Martial Study feat.:) Now where would I put a list of new maneuvers that I am making on the sit, since maneuvers are not feats, skills, spells, or, skills. I would think under feats and skills but I am not sure.:confused: Except that this is not a matter of opinion, its clearly stated mechanics right there in the book. Your Initiator Level determines the maximum level of Maneuver or Stance you can learn, and Initiator Level is calculated as Any levels in martial Adept classes+ 1/2 your levels in all other classes. So for example a Fighter 10/Warblade 10 has an Initiator Level of 15, which would mean that the highest-level Maneuver or Stance he could learn via the Martial Study or Martial Stance feats would be 8th. By this same very simple formula, a Fighter 20 has an Initiator Level of 10, which gives him access to Maneuvers or Stances up to 5th level. Heres the Initiator Level/Max Stance/Maneuver Level Chart: Initiator Level-Maximum Maneuver/Stance Level 1-2=1 3-4=2 5-6=3 7-8=4 9-10=5(this is where a non-Martial Adept maxes out at Level 20) 11-12=6 13-14=7 15-16=8 17-18+=9 In summary, It is impossible for a non Martial Adept to gain Maneuvers and Stances above 5th level. There is no other interpretation, but that does not stop you from changing it if you like.
jaelis 04-26-08, 08:29 PM	I agree. Martial study says: "Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisites" The prerequisite section on page 44 says "In addition to meeting the class and level requirement..." The level requirement is explained on page 39. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Warlawk 04-27-08, 07:06 PM	I agree. Martial study says: "Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisites" The prerequisite section on page 44 says "In addition to meeting the class and level requirement..." The level requirement is explained on page 39. Seems pretty straightforward to me. QFT The OP needs to stop thinking that he is right and read the rules. If he is incapable of understanding them (which seems to be the case) then it is up to his DM to correct him. OP, your opinion or interpretation of this is flat wrong. The prerequisites section clearly states that in addition to other requirements you must meet the minimum initiator level. What so many are trying politely to say is that you are wrong. Not only are you wrong, you are making yourself look ignorant by refusing to read the quoted rules and understand them. Additionally, ridiculous crap like this is why so many people cry about Bo9s being overpowered or unbalanced. Willful ignorance of the rules will have that effect.
curtis_ownby 04-27-08, 09:33 PM	I have went and read the part that you are talking about many times, and if you looked at what I was saying, you would see it was another way of interperting what was writen on page 44. It could be clearer what they wrote. And I already know that is not the normal way of looking at it. I have not been saying maneuver level does not matter at all, but that it does not matter with the feat Martial Study. By the second post I knew that most likely no one would see how it could be taken like that. It is takeing it out of context a little bit. But I think it is fun to pick it apart all the way. After all who does not like a good debate just for fun. By the way about half of the time I play D&D I am the DM so I do know you would not use the feat like that unless you were trying to up the power of the game a lot, doing it just for fun.:D You should not get mad over a little debate. It was just another way of twisting the rules a bit if you wanted to give the Warriors a bit more power to get them more level with the spell casters.;) Flat out from the rules taken at face value it would not work, but if you inclued level with class on page 44 since it is under LEVEL then it would work. Yes it is twisting it a bit, but I knew that before my first post. They are not coming out with any thing new until June and I got bord just re-reading my old books over and over.
risner 04-28-08, 11:16 AM	It was just another way of twisting the rules a bit if you wanted to give the Warriors a bit more power to get them more level with the spell casters.;) Flat out from the rules taken at face value it would not work Yes it is twisting it a bit, but I knew that before my first post Sounds like this belongs in the T.O. boards, since it is a theoretical optimization.
curtis_ownby 04-28-08, 12:19 PM	:confused: What is T.O.?
jokey665 04-28-08, 01:39 PM	risner just said what it was. Theoretical Optimization.
jaelis 04-28-08, 01:44 PM	Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330)