Karmic Strike/Robilar's gambit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Karmic Strike/Robilar's gambit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Axiomatic_vampire
12-23-07, 12:31 AM I know this has come up before on these, yes, these very boards. Can I find it? Nope. So I'm giving up and asking.

I've got a player that wants to stack them (his idea is to use it with the tactical feat Stormguard Warrior, channel the storm tactical option, and turn that into an Avalanche of Blades.) I don't have a problem with those feats, both seem like strong options. Together (and of course he's working on a +10 dex mod) they seem a bit much. Anyone have some thoughts to share? I'd like to get any technical rulings on how those feats interact as well as some insight into how that combination tends to affect a game.
Bopple
12-23-07, 07:33 AM With very rigid technicality, they stack.
But it can be argued that hitting and attacking are the same one opportunity for AoO, in essence.

Personally, I know 10 DM's or so in my vicinity and none of them allow them to stack.
elonin
12-23-07, 09:25 AM The main question would appear to be "Will these feats stack on a sucessful hit?" I'd say no. Otherwise you'd have to roll for tumble for every movement taken through threatened squares. Unless wizards has addressed this each action should not provoke more than once (per person). On the other hand the unnamed ac penalties would stack.
Axiomatic_vampire
12-23-07, 01:58 PM Thanks for the insight.
StruckingFuggle
12-23-07, 02:53 PM Officially: No. Or no-ish. I can't remember if it's CustServ, Sage, or Actual Errata.

Sensically? Technically as written? Yes.

Balance-wise: It's up in the air. Some say yes, some say no, DMs and players alike. Personally, I say they should.
Tordak
12-23-07, 10:20 PM No stacking. The benefits only sort of overlap; he still gets only one attack per opportunity, 1 attack provokes one AoO, whether he gets it from from karmic strikes or Robilard gambit. He doesn't have to use both, and sometime he can judge giving his opponents a +4 to damage so that he can get an AoO even if he's missed could be a fair trade.
StruckingFuggle
12-24-07, 03:38 AM 1 attack provokes one AoO, whether he gets it from from karmic strikes or Robilard gambit.

"An attack" is not what provokes an attack of opportunity for both feats, only one of them.
Tordak
12-24-07, 08:25 AM Right, sorry, one feat is triggered by an attack, the other is trigger by a successful attack. Nevertheless, a succesful attack will still only trigger one AoO.
CryoSilver
12-24-07, 11:34 AM I'm going this same route, and I'm probably going to retrain Karmic Strike inot Robilar's Gambit when I get there, and retrain Dodge at the next level into Deft Opportunist.
StruckingFuggle
12-24-07, 06:50 PM Right, sorry, one feat is triggered by an attack, the other is trigger by a successful attack. Nevertheless, a succesful attack will still only trigger one AoO.

I disagree. One triggers when you make are attacked, the other triggers when you are struck successfully. By making the second on distinct, it creates two different opportunities. They are different triggers, with different feats to take advantage of them. It is just that you cannot trigger one (honestly I forget which one is which), without first the other, if you have both.
aelryinth
12-25-07, 12:15 AM The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack.

The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack.

It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range. The answer is no, you only get one AoO for the movement out of squares they leave. Same kind of rule applies to these two feats.

===Aelryinth
Axiomatic_vampire
12-25-07, 12:25 AM The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack.

The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack.

It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range. The answer is no, you only get one AoO for the movement out of squares they leave. Same kind of rule applies to these two feats.

===Aelryinth

The problem with that is that I don't want them to stack, and that still doesn't convince me. In regard to the movement issue, there's a very specific line of text stating that they don't stack in the PH, on page 138. Without that line, they would. Since only the clearly written exception makes that so, without a clearly written exception similar situations would indeed stack.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to the official ruling somewhere? Maybe that would give me some mechanical hitch to hang it on. Otherwise I think I'll have to consider it a house rule.
StruckingFuggle
12-25-07, 02:42 AM The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack.

The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack.

Yes, and I acknowledged as such in my post, that there was an official(ish - who ruled it 'officially'?) ruling, and then went on to say that while that's been done, I disagree with it.

It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range.

... No, it wouldn't, because there is no distinction. It's still 'movement', and it's 'moving out of a threatened square' that provokes, making no distinction of when and how you leave, and it's all still from the single action 'movement'.

But I'm not going to answer and replies you make to this, as a way of hopefully avoiding rehashing that darn "Hold the Line" thread.
Axiomatic_vampire
12-25-07, 03:01 AM Honestly, if this has been dealt with multiple times on the boards, and anyone wants to give a christmas present to a stranger, a link would be great. I can sift through the arguments on my own time rather than hash this all out again. I just couldn't find a comprehensive thread on it.
elonin
12-25-07, 10:34 AM Just to make sure we are on the same page; KS and RG both provide the possibiliity for an attack of oppertunity when you wouldn't normally be able to get one. KS gives an AoO upon a sucessful hit. RG give an AoO after an attack (about the same as KS, but wider scope). As has been said before any action only provides an AoO.
StruckingFuggle
12-25-07, 11:55 PM As has been said before any action only provides an AoO.

I don't think anyone at all is actually disputing that fact; we disagree on if they're the same action or two seperat ones.
aelryinth
12-26-07, 12:01 AM Everyone agrees its the same swing. that's the 'opportunity', by the rules. Where the naysayers come in is trying to define the 'trigger effect' as the opportunity...that's not the case. The triggers are different, but the opportunity remains the same.

===Aelryinth
elonin
12-26-07, 06:56 AM What is your basis for saying that? Both of these feats do about the same thing, only RG allows an AoO after a miss. Allowing two attacks of oppertunity would be like letting someone get two attacks of oppertunity for movement. It's also just like wearing two items that enhance strength and adding both of the effects. It's simply put they do not stack
OpakeDragon
12-26-07, 10:13 AM What is your basis for saying that? Both of these feats do about the same thing, only RG allows an AoO after a miss. Allowing two attacks of oppertunity would be like letting someone get two attacks of oppertunity for movement. It's also just like wearing two items that enhance strength and adding both of the effects. It's simply put they do not stack

Karmic Strike(KS) allows for an AoO(using normal AoO triggering rules for resolution) if someone hits you, by taking a -4 to AC

Robilar's Gambit(RG) allows for an AoO(but after each attack) for every attack an opponent makes at you, all of these attacks gets a +4 to Attack and +4 to Damage

Both feats are limited by the number of AoO's you can make in a round. If you only have three AoO's due to high dex and Combat reflexes, and you use both of these feats then you get -4 AC and the attacker gets +4 to attack and damage. Your opponent(with 3 attacks: +11/+6/+1) attacks you(+15 not counting any other modifiers), he hits you provoking an AoO before he resolves his attack(KS), his damage +4 normal. He damages you because of the successful hit. If you drop below 0 hp then you can't make your second AoO(RG). If you don't, then you make your second AoO(RG). Your opponent makes a second attack(at +10), and you gain your third and final AoO(if successful KS before he resolves his attack, else RG after his resolution). If your opponent is still standing then he makes his final attack at +5, and since you are out of AoOs for the round you make no AoO for the rest of your round.

Both Feats have balancing features that allow them to stack without warranting a no stack house rule.
elonin
12-26-07, 01:23 PM Sure all of that stacks except on a hit you only get one AoO.
bahamut920
12-26-07, 01:47 PM Both Feats have balancing features that allow them to stack without warranting a no stack house rule.

It's not a house rule. By RAW, an action can never provoke more than one attack of opportunity. This could be mitigated if either of the feats said that it allowed multiple attacks of opportunity, or if one was not really an AoO, but the action (the attack) only provokes once.

Now I think there's a Setting Sun or Iron Heart maneuver that allows you to take an AoO against someone who attacks you; only it's not really an AoO, so it would stack with KS or RG...
CryoSilver
12-26-07, 02:08 PM Rapid Counter is a Diamond Mind maneuver that lets you make an extra attack whenever you could take an AoO. It lets you make 2 attacks, or save your AoO, or be a real bastard and use a trip, then Improved Trip attack, then Rapid Counter, and basically get a full attack on you ropponent's turn :P.
OpakeDragon
12-28-07, 10:44 AM It's not a house rule. By RAW, an action can never provoke more than one attack of opportunity. This could be mitigated if either of the feats said that it allowed multiple attacks of opportunity, or if one was not really an AoO, but the action (the attack) only provokes once.

Now I think there's a Setting Sun or Iron Heart maneuver that allows you to take an AoO against someone who attacks you; only it's not really an AoO, so it would stack with KS or RG...

Oh ok... I kinda forgot about that, good point. Since that's the case why is the KS/RG combo bad?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Axiomatic_vampire 12-23-07, 12:31 AM	I know this has come up before on these, yes, these very boards. Can I find it? Nope. So I'm giving up and asking. I've got a player that wants to stack them (his idea is to use it with the tactical feat Stormguard Warrior, channel the storm tactical option, and turn that into an Avalanche of Blades.) I don't have a problem with those feats, both seem like strong options. Together (and of course he's working on a +10 dex mod) they seem a bit much. Anyone have some thoughts to share? I'd like to get any technical rulings on how those feats interact as well as some insight into how that combination tends to affect a game.
Bopple 12-23-07, 07:33 AM	With very rigid technicality, they stack. But it can be argued that hitting and attacking are the same one opportunity for AoO, in essence. Personally, I know 10 DM's or so in my vicinity and none of them allow them to stack.
elonin 12-23-07, 09:25 AM	The main question would appear to be "Will these feats stack on a sucessful hit?" I'd say no. Otherwise you'd have to roll for tumble for every movement taken through threatened squares. Unless wizards has addressed this each action should not provoke more than once (per person). On the other hand the unnamed ac penalties would stack.
Axiomatic_vampire 12-23-07, 01:58 PM	Thanks for the insight.
StruckingFuggle 12-23-07, 02:53 PM	Officially: No. Or no-ish. I can't remember if it's CustServ, Sage, or Actual Errata. Sensically? Technically as written? Yes. Balance-wise: It's up in the air. Some say yes, some say no, DMs and players alike. Personally, I say they should.
Tordak 12-23-07, 10:20 PM	No stacking. The benefits only sort of overlap; he still gets only one attack per opportunity, 1 attack provokes one AoO, whether he gets it from from karmic strikes or Robilard gambit. He doesn't have to use both, and sometime he can judge giving his opponents a +4 to damage so that he can get an AoO even if he's missed could be a fair trade.
StruckingFuggle 12-24-07, 03:38 AM	1 attack provokes one AoO, whether he gets it from from karmic strikes or Robilard gambit. "An attack" is not what provokes an attack of opportunity for both feats, only one of them.
Tordak 12-24-07, 08:25 AM	Right, sorry, one feat is triggered by an attack, the other is trigger by a successful attack. Nevertheless, a succesful attack will still only trigger one AoO.
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 11:34 AM	I'm going this same route, and I'm probably going to retrain Karmic Strike inot Robilar's Gambit when I get there, and retrain Dodge at the next level into Deft Opportunist.
StruckingFuggle 12-24-07, 06:50 PM	Right, sorry, one feat is triggered by an attack, the other is trigger by a successful attack. Nevertheless, a succesful attack will still only trigger one AoO. I disagree. One triggers when you make are attacked, the other triggers when you are struck successfully. By making the second on distinct, it creates two different opportunities. They are different triggers, with different feats to take advantage of them. It is just that you cannot trigger one (honestly I forget which one is which), without first the other, if you have both.
aelryinth 12-25-07, 12:15 AM	The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack. The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack. It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range. The answer is no, you only get one AoO for the movement out of squares they leave. Same kind of rule applies to these two feats. ===Aelryinth
Axiomatic_vampire 12-25-07, 12:25 AM	The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack. The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack. It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range. The answer is no, you only get one AoO for the movement out of squares they leave. Same kind of rule applies to these two feats. ===Aelryinth The problem with that is that I don't want them to stack, and that still doesn't convince me. In regard to the movement issue, there's a very specific line of text stating that they don't stack in the PH, on page 138. Without that line, they would. Since only the clearly written exception makes that so, without a clearly written exception similar situations would indeed stack. You wouldn't happen to have a link to the official ruling somewhere? Maybe that would give me some mechanical hitch to hang it on. Otherwise I think I'll have to consider it a house rule.
StruckingFuggle 12-25-07, 02:42 AM	The argument has been posted multiple times by people who want them to stack. The official ruling is that the AoO is triggered by an attack. One is by ANY attack, and you get your AoO after it has its effect. The other is triggered by any SUCCESSFUL attack. Regardless, both are triggered by an attack, and it has been officially ruled that they do not stack. Yes, and I acknowledged as such in my post, that there was an official(ish - who ruled it 'officially'?) ruling, and then went on to say that while that's been done, I disagree with it. It would similar to saying that you get an AoO moving out of the first square they leave in your threat range, and another one for the last one they leave in your threat range. ... No, it wouldn't, because there is no distinction. It's still 'movement', and it's 'moving out of a threatened square' that provokes, making no distinction of when and how you leave, and it's all still from the single action 'movement'. But I'm not going to answer and replies you make to this, as a way of hopefully avoiding rehashing that darn "Hold the Line" thread.
Axiomatic_vampire 12-25-07, 03:01 AM	Honestly, if this has been dealt with multiple times on the boards, and anyone wants to give a christmas present to a stranger, a link would be great. I can sift through the arguments on my own time rather than hash this all out again. I just couldn't find a comprehensive thread on it.
elonin 12-25-07, 10:34 AM	Just to make sure we are on the same page; KS and RG both provide the possibiliity for an attack of oppertunity when you wouldn't normally be able to get one. KS gives an AoO upon a sucessful hit. RG give an AoO after an attack (about the same as KS, but wider scope). As has been said before any action only provides an AoO.
StruckingFuggle 12-25-07, 11:55 PM	As has been said before any action only provides an AoO. I don't think anyone at all is actually disputing that fact; we disagree on if they're the same action or two seperat ones.
aelryinth 12-26-07, 12:01 AM	Everyone agrees its the same swing. that's the 'opportunity', by the rules. Where the naysayers come in is trying to define the 'trigger effect' as the opportunity...that's not the case. The triggers are different, but the opportunity remains the same. ===Aelryinth
elonin 12-26-07, 06:56 AM	What is your basis for saying that? Both of these feats do about the same thing, only RG allows an AoO after a miss. Allowing two attacks of oppertunity would be like letting someone get two attacks of oppertunity for movement. It's also just like wearing two items that enhance strength and adding both of the effects. It's simply put they do not stack
OpakeDragon 12-26-07, 10:13 AM	What is your basis for saying that? Both of these feats do about the same thing, only RG allows an AoO after a miss. Allowing two attacks of oppertunity would be like letting someone get two attacks of oppertunity for movement. It's also just like wearing two items that enhance strength and adding both of the effects. It's simply put they do not stack Karmic Strike(KS) allows for an AoO(using normal AoO triggering rules for resolution) if someone hits you, by taking a -4 to AC Robilar's Gambit(RG) allows for an AoO(but after each attack) for every attack an opponent makes at you, all of these attacks gets a +4 to Attack and +4 to Damage Both feats are limited by the number of AoO's you can make in a round. If you only have three AoO's due to high dex and Combat reflexes, and you use both of these feats then you get -4 AC and the attacker gets +4 to attack and damage. Your opponent(with 3 attacks: +11/+6/+1) attacks you(+15 not counting any other modifiers), he hits you provoking an AoO before he resolves his attack(KS), his damage +4 normal. He damages you because of the successful hit. If you drop below 0 hp then you can't make your second AoO(RG). If you don't, then you make your second AoO(RG). Your opponent makes a second attack(at +10), and you gain your third and final AoO(if successful KS before he resolves his attack, else RG after his resolution). If your opponent is still standing then he makes his final attack at +5, and since you are out of AoOs for the round you make no AoO for the rest of your round. Both Feats have balancing features that allow them to stack without warranting a no stack house rule.
elonin 12-26-07, 01:23 PM	Sure all of that stacks except on a hit you only get one AoO.
bahamut920 12-26-07, 01:47 PM	Both Feats have balancing features that allow them to stack without warranting a no stack house rule. It's not a house rule. By RAW, an action can never provoke more than one attack of opportunity. This could be mitigated if either of the feats said that it allowed multiple attacks of opportunity, or if one was not really an AoO, but the action (the attack) only provokes once. Now I think there's a Setting Sun or Iron Heart maneuver that allows you to take an AoO against someone who attacks you; only it's not really an AoO, so it would stack with KS or RG...
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 02:08 PM	Rapid Counter is a Diamond Mind maneuver that lets you make an extra attack whenever you could take an AoO. It lets you make 2 attacks, or save your AoO, or be a real bastard and use a trip, then Improved Trip attack, then Rapid Counter, and basically get a full attack on you ropponent's turn :P.
OpakeDragon 12-28-07, 10:44 AM	It's not a house rule. By RAW, an action can never provoke more than one attack of opportunity. This could be mitigated if either of the feats said that it allowed multiple attacks of opportunity, or if one was not really an AoO, but the action (the attack) only provokes once. Now I think there's a Setting Sun or Iron Heart maneuver that allows you to take an AoO against someone who attacks you; only it's not really an AoO, so it would stack with KS or RG... Oh ok... I kinda forgot about that, good point. Since that's the case why is the KS/RG combo bad?