Kick Them When They Are Down [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kick Them When They Are Down [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jokotoko
04-17-07, 06:48 AM Dear all,

I am trying to work with my DM to create a way to synergize tripping and sneak attacking. He is OK with the general idea of allowing a sneak attack after a succesful trip attempt, given that the prereqs and conditions under which it applies make it balanced. Therefore, he asked me to develop a feat that meets these criteria. My first attempt is given below.
The question is whether you think this feat is balanced, and why or why not? If not, how would you change it, or do you think that the idea of sneak attacking after a trip is broken by definition?
Any comments and feedback are welcome. Thanks in advance!

KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL]
When an opponent falls prone as a result of your trip attempt, you take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability
Benefit: Your opponent is considered flat-footed against the melee attack you get after you have successfully tripped him in melee combat as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way.
Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Longarms
04-18-07, 12:15 AM I can't really articulate why at the moment, but what you have seems too powerful of an ability for a feat.

A simple fix might be to stay with what you have, but allow the attack after the trip to be a sneak attack only when the victim fails his trip by five or more. That would be basically what you have, but would reduce the frequency with which you get your free sneak attacks.

Might be good to have both plans ready in case your DM doesn't agree to the first plan.
Fiddletink
04-18-07, 12:46 AM how about
If you succeed at the free attack granted by Improved Trip after successfully tripping an opponent, they are considered flatfooted for the purpose of your sneak attack ability.
Note- this does not use their flat-footed AC, just the bonus damage if you succeed on the attack.
Someone
04-18-07, 01:50 AM Maybe instead of just when you use Improved Trip, how about simply doing more damage to a prone opponent? Sneak attack would still be a prereq, but the extra damage granted by the feat would be limited to just 1d6 or so.
TwistedShadow
04-18-07, 02:41 AM Here is another option which might make a little more sense and not allow a constant free sneak attack option.

use same prerequisites as what you have but change Int to 15+ and add a decent BAB requirement somewhere between +4 and +10 (consult your DM)

Benefit: Target must make save (not sure if this should be a fort or reflex check with your DM) DC 15 + how much they lost the opposed trip by) or be stunned by the trip.

The reason for this is both mechanical and logical. if you know what you are doing when you trip someone you can get them to either hit their head really good or knock the wind out of them (Hence being stunned) and being stunned denies Dex bonus to AC (so there is the sneak attack) the only reason for the save is that even if you know what you are doing you can't expect to get someone you trip to land the right way to knock the wind out of them or hit their head every time and some people know how to counter this.

other then that there should be a limit to the number of times you can use this feat just like stunning fist, so take a look at stunning fist and emulate its basic rules on how often it can be used per day.
jokotoko
04-18-07, 04:00 AM Ok, thanks for the comments...all of you say that the feat is too powerful and propose possible remedies. Some of them seem mutually exclusive, so I have composed a new version of the feat that incorporates the comments that keep the feat as close as possible to the original intent (but not power level :))

KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL]
When you successfully trip an opponent with a difference of 5 or more on the trip check, you take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts.
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Int 15+, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability
Benefit: If you win the opposed trip check with a difference of 5 or more, your opponent is considered flat-footed against the free melee attack you get as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way.
Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Is this better?

Alternatively, I am considering:

KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL]
When you successfully trip an opponent, you put him in a vulnerable position and take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts.
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Int 15+, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability
Benefit: If you win the opposed trip check with the target must make a reflex save save (DC 15 + how much they lost the opposed trip by) or be considered flat footed against the free melee attack you get as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way.
Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Which is is more suitable do you think?
Sachiel
04-18-07, 04:54 AM I think the original wording of it was fine actually. Taking improved feint lets you consider someone flat-footed with a skill check rather easilly and still hit them that round.

Being able to sneak attack an opponent that you trip isn't that crazy. Lots of creatures are big, strong, or quadrapeds; all of this makes it difficult to gain the benefits of this feat. How many creatures are hard to trip versus how many creatures have enough sense motive to see through your bluff?
CaoSlayer
04-18-07, 04:56 AM I would say make it simple:

Kick them when they are down:

when attacking a prone oponent you can take a -4 penalty to hit (negating the -4 AC of the oponent when prone) for considering the enemy flat-flooted against the attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jokotoko 04-17-07, 06:48 AM	Dear all, I am trying to work with my DM to create a way to synergize tripping and sneak attacking. He is OK with the general idea of allowing a sneak attack after a succesful trip attempt, given that the prereqs and conditions under which it applies make it balanced. Therefore, he asked me to develop a feat that meets these criteria. My first attempt is given below. The question is whether you think this feat is balanced, and why or why not? If not, how would you change it, or do you think that the idea of sneak attacking after a trip is broken by definition? Any comments and feedback are welcome. Thanks in advance! KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL] When an opponent falls prone as a result of your trip attempt, you take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts. Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability Benefit: Your opponent is considered flat-footed against the melee attack you get after you have successfully tripped him in melee combat as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way. Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Longarms 04-18-07, 12:15 AM	I can't really articulate why at the moment, but what you have seems too powerful of an ability for a feat. A simple fix might be to stay with what you have, but allow the attack after the trip to be a sneak attack only when the victim fails his trip by five or more. That would be basically what you have, but would reduce the frequency with which you get your free sneak attacks. Might be good to have both plans ready in case your DM doesn't agree to the first plan.
Fiddletink 04-18-07, 12:46 AM	how about If you succeed at the free attack granted by Improved Trip after successfully tripping an opponent, they are considered flatfooted for the purpose of your sneak attack ability. Note- this does not use their flat-footed AC, just the bonus damage if you succeed on the attack.
Someone 04-18-07, 01:50 AM	Maybe instead of just when you use Improved Trip, how about simply doing more damage to a prone opponent? Sneak attack would still be a prereq, but the extra damage granted by the feat would be limited to just 1d6 or so.
TwistedShadow 04-18-07, 02:41 AM	Here is another option which might make a little more sense and not allow a constant free sneak attack option. use same prerequisites as what you have but change Int to 15+ and add a decent BAB requirement somewhere between +4 and +10 (consult your DM) Benefit: Target must make save (not sure if this should be a fort or reflex check with your DM) DC 15 + how much they lost the opposed trip by) or be stunned by the trip. The reason for this is both mechanical and logical. if you know what you are doing when you trip someone you can get them to either hit their head really good or knock the wind out of them (Hence being stunned) and being stunned denies Dex bonus to AC (so there is the sneak attack) the only reason for the save is that even if you know what you are doing you can't expect to get someone you trip to land the right way to knock the wind out of them or hit their head every time and some people know how to counter this. other then that there should be a limit to the number of times you can use this feat just like stunning fist, so take a look at stunning fist and emulate its basic rules on how often it can be used per day.
jokotoko 04-18-07, 04:00 AM	Ok, thanks for the comments...all of you say that the feat is too powerful and propose possible remedies. Some of them seem mutually exclusive, so I have composed a new version of the feat that incorporates the comments that keep the feat as close as possible to the original intent (but not power level :)) KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL] When you successfully trip an opponent with a difference of 5 or more on the trip check, you take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts. Prerequisites: BAB +4, Int 15+, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability Benefit: If you win the opposed trip check with a difference of 5 or more, your opponent is considered flat-footed against the free melee attack you get as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way. Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats. Is this better? Alternatively, I am considering: KICK THEM WHEN THEY ARE DOWN [GENERAL] When you successfully trip an opponent, you put him in a vulnerable position and take the opportunity to hit him where it hurts. Prerequisites: BAB +4, Int 15+, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Sneak Attack Ability Benefit: If you win the opposed trip check with the target must make a reflex save save (DC 15 + how much they lost the opposed trip by) or be considered flat footed against the free melee attack you get as a result of the improved trip feat. Uncanny dodge, as normal, prevents being caught flat-footed in this way. Special: A fighter may select Kick Them When They Are Down as one of his fighter bonus feats. Which is is more suitable do you think?
Sachiel 04-18-07, 04:54 AM	I think the original wording of it was fine actually. Taking improved feint lets you consider someone flat-footed with a skill check rather easilly and still hit them that round. Being able to sneak attack an opponent that you trip isn't that crazy. Lots of creatures are big, strong, or quadrapeds; all of this makes it difficult to gain the benefits of this feat. How many creatures are hard to trip versus how many creatures have enough sense motive to see through your bluff?
CaoSlayer 04-18-07, 04:56 AM	I would say make it simple: Kick them when they are down: when attacking a prone oponent you can take a -4 penalty to hit (negating the -4 AC of the oponent when prone) for considering the enemy flat-flooted against the attack.