Knockdown + Mageslayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knockdown + Mageslayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
macduffman
10-31-07, 03:50 PM Hey guys, question about feat trees. Tell me how I can most quickly accomplish this.

Right now I'm playing a level 11 barbarian who deals in melee damage (hardly unusual). I've noticed the feat "Knockdown" and am intrigued. It allows a free action trip attempt any time you deal 10 damage in melee. It requires Improved Trip, which in turn requires (Combat) Expertise.

Now, there's no trouble here if I just want to get these feats. As far as I can tell, the fastest (and easiest to roleplay) route is to multiclass fighter at levels 12 and 13 to gain 3 feats. Done.

However, I also like these feats in conjunction with Mageslayer (melee opponents cannot cast defensively). So, basically, because casting in melee provokes the AoO, Mageslayer + Knockdown = prone mages. Question there -- if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone?

Also I like Mageslayer for the save bonus (nice for my barbarian).

Is there a faster route to get Knockdown + Mageslayer than simply waiting for level 15? I'm getting the feeling that our campaign may end before he gets that far. Thanks!
LSMFT
10-31-07, 04:02 PM Question there -- if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone
Not automatically. He gets a concentration check based on the damage he takes.

Remember though that part of the mageslayer feats states that the caster is aware he can't cast defensively. So, he's often a 5' step away from not having to worry about this problem. Pierce Magical Protection and Concealment are very nice feats though.
Hsien
10-31-07, 05:09 PM It's fairly common in Mageslayer builds to use a reach weapon and be able threaten at 5'; spiked chain or polearm/spiked armor.
The_Shaman
10-31-07, 08:20 PM There are ways to get improved trip without combat expertise... Unapproachable East had the Wolf Tribe lodge feat, and I think something like that appeared in CChampion.
Bopple
10-31-07, 08:37 PM Right now I'm playing a level 11 barbarian who deals in melee damage (hardly unusual). I've noticed the feat "Knockdown" and am intrigued. It allows a free action trip attempt any time you deal 10 damage in melee. It requires Improved Trip, which in turn requires (Combat) Expertise.
Good for you if 3.0 materials are allowed in your game.
Note that you don't get free attack after tripping him with Knockdown.

if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone?
If he fails the concentration check.
Wih
10-31-07, 11:50 PM Good for you if 3.0 materials are allowed in your game.

Knockdown has been updated to 3.5 in the SRD, it's fully-fledged 3.5 material.
Tordak
11-01-07, 10:53 AM Note that you don't get free attack after tripping him with Knockdown.

Now I can't find knockdown in d20 SRD, but if the above is correct then don't bother taking knockdown as a feat, you'll get the same result with improved trip except the attack will be made once the mage is down (made at +4). You still take the 2 levels of fighter and get combat expertise, improved trip and mage slayer.

Pierce magical protection is an invaluable feat.

And if you want reach, use guisarme which is a weapon usable for trip.
Slimgauge
11-01-07, 02:30 PM Now I can't find knockdown in d20 SRD, ...

That's because it's not hiding in the regular feat section, it is instead hiding here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).
Tordak
11-01-07, 02:42 PM Thank you, I forgot to look in that section. After reading it though, I don't see why it wouldn't give you the extra attack, it doesn't say that in the feat at all. The improved trip is clear,
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

In the Main D&D 3.5 FAQ there a paragraph in the feat section saying that 'you get your extra attack whenever you make a sucessful trip attempt'. Of course if otherwise noted in the attack description (whirlwind attack for example), then you wouldn't get it.
Kattam
11-01-07, 05:23 PM With Knockdown you would still get the extra attack from tripping just like any other trip attempt.

But would you be able to do Knockdown on an AoO at all? The way I have read it, you only get one attack in an Attack of Opportunity (not even an attack action technically), which would not provide time for a free action.
ScipioX
11-02-07, 01:09 AM With Knockdown you would still get the extra attack from tripping just like any other trip attempt.

But would you be able to do Knockdown on an AoO at all? The way I have read it, you only get one attack in an Attack of Opportunity (not even an attack action technically), which would not provide time for a free action.

You're correct, no knockdown effect on AoO, since its not your turn and therefore you can't take free actions.

IIRC, the 3.0 FAQ had a specific ruling that knockdown did not trigger a free attack from improved trip. The 3.5 version seems pretty similar to me, so I don't see why the 3.0 FAQ wouldn't still apply.
Tordak
11-02-07, 09:14 AM ...since its not your turn and therefore you can't take free actions.

I really don't know where this comes from, and your not the first saying that. I would appreciate if you could point out for me where does it say you cannot take free action when it's not your turn? I'm saying this because there are a some examples of free action you can take when it's not your turn, and you can even take immediate actions as a reaction to someone else's action even if immediate actions is considered to be taking more time then free actions. Free actions can be taken anytime you qualify for it as far as I know. I don't read the faqs/ask wizards/errata everyday, so I might have missed something on this, that's why I'm asking kindly if anyone could point it out for me.

Edit : Sorry, found what I needed.
Merestil Haye
11-02-07, 09:18 AM IIRC, the 3.0 FAQ had a specific ruling that knockdown did not trigger a free attack from improved trip.You do remember correctly.Does the fighter with the Knockdown feat get a free attack from Improved Trip against a creature that he trips due to a knockdown?
No.It's in the Sword and Fist FAQ.

The 3.5 version seems pretty similar to me, so I don't see why the 3.0 FAQ wouldn't still apply.3.0 FAQ answers still apply unless the rules or text of the ability was changed in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
macduffman 10-31-07, 03:50 PM	Hey guys, question about feat trees. Tell me how I can most quickly accomplish this. Right now I'm playing a level 11 barbarian who deals in melee damage (hardly unusual). I've noticed the feat "Knockdown" and am intrigued. It allows a free action trip attempt any time you deal 10 damage in melee. It requires Improved Trip, which in turn requires (Combat) Expertise. Now, there's no trouble here if I just want to get these feats. As far as I can tell, the fastest (and easiest to roleplay) route is to multiclass fighter at levels 12 and 13 to gain 3 feats. Done. However, I also like these feats in conjunction with Mageslayer (melee opponents cannot cast defensively). So, basically, because casting in melee provokes the AoO, Mageslayer + Knockdown = prone mages. Question there -- if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone? Also I like Mageslayer for the save bonus (nice for my barbarian). Is there a faster route to get Knockdown + Mageslayer than simply waiting for level 15? I'm getting the feeling that our campaign may end before he gets that far. Thanks!
LSMFT 10-31-07, 04:02 PM	Question there -- if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone Not automatically. He gets a concentration check based on the damage he takes. Remember though that part of the mageslayer feats states that the caster is aware he can't cast defensively. So, he's often a 5' step away from not having to worry about this problem. Pierce Magical Protection and Concealment are very nice feats though.
Hsien 10-31-07, 05:09 PM	It's fairly common in Mageslayer builds to use a reach weapon and be able threaten at 5'; spiked chain or polearm/spiked armor.
The_Shaman 10-31-07, 08:20 PM	There are ways to get improved trip without combat expertise... Unapproachable East had the Wolf Tribe lodge feat, and I think something like that appeared in CChampion.
Bopple 10-31-07, 08:37 PM	Right now I'm playing a level 11 barbarian who deals in melee damage (hardly unusual). I've noticed the feat "Knockdown" and am intrigued. It allows a free action trip attempt any time you deal 10 damage in melee. It requires Improved Trip, which in turn requires (Combat) Expertise. Good for you if 3.0 materials are allowed in your game. Note that you don't get free attack after tripping him with Knockdown. if my barbarian makes an AoO against a mage who is casting in melee, and succeeds at the subsequent trip attempt, does the mage lose the spell and go prone? If he fails the concentration check.
Wih 10-31-07, 11:50 PM	Good for you if 3.0 materials are allowed in your game. Knockdown has been updated to 3.5 in the SRD, it's fully-fledged 3.5 material.
Tordak 11-01-07, 10:53 AM	Note that you don't get free attack after tripping him with Knockdown. Now I can't find knockdown in d20 SRD, but if the above is correct then don't bother taking knockdown as a feat, you'll get the same result with improved trip except the attack will be made once the mage is down (made at +4). You still take the 2 levels of fighter and get combat expertise, improved trip and mage slayer. Pierce magical protection is an invaluable feat. And if you want reach, use guisarme which is a weapon usable for trip.
Slimgauge 11-01-07, 02:30 PM	Now I can't find knockdown in d20 SRD, ... That's because it's not hiding in the regular feat section, it is instead hiding here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).
Tordak 11-01-07, 02:42 PM	Thank you, I forgot to look in that section. After reading it though, I don't see why it wouldn't give you the extra attack, it doesn't say that in the feat at all. The improved trip is clear, If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. In the Main D&D 3.5 FAQ there a paragraph in the feat section saying that 'you get your extra attack whenever you make a sucessful trip attempt'. Of course if otherwise noted in the attack description (whirlwind attack for example), then you wouldn't get it.
Kattam 11-01-07, 05:23 PM	With Knockdown you would still get the extra attack from tripping just like any other trip attempt. But would you be able to do Knockdown on an AoO at all? The way I have read it, you only get one attack in an Attack of Opportunity (not even an attack action technically), which would not provide time for a free action.
ScipioX 11-02-07, 01:09 AM	With Knockdown you would still get the extra attack from tripping just like any other trip attempt. But would you be able to do Knockdown on an AoO at all? The way I have read it, you only get one attack in an Attack of Opportunity (not even an attack action technically), which would not provide time for a free action. You're correct, no knockdown effect on AoO, since its not your turn and therefore you can't take free actions. IIRC, the 3.0 FAQ had a specific ruling that knockdown did not trigger a free attack from improved trip. The 3.5 version seems pretty similar to me, so I don't see why the 3.0 FAQ wouldn't still apply.
Tordak 11-02-07, 09:14 AM	...since its not your turn and therefore you can't take free actions. I really don't know where this comes from, and your not the first saying that. I would appreciate if you could point out for me where does it say you cannot take free action when it's not your turn? I'm saying this because there are a some examples of free action you can take when it's not your turn, and you can even take immediate actions as a reaction to someone else's action even if immediate actions is considered to be taking more time then free actions. Free actions can be taken anytime you qualify for it as far as I know. I don't read the faqs/ask wizards/errata everyday, so I might have missed something on this, that's why I'm asking kindly if anyone could point it out for me. Edit : Sorry, found what I needed.
Merestil Haye 11-02-07, 09:18 AM	IIRC, the 3.0 FAQ had a specific ruling that knockdown did not trigger a free attack from improved trip.You do remember correctly.Does the fighter with the Knockdown feat get a free attack from Improved Trip against a creature that he trips due to a knockdown? No.It's in the Sword and Fist FAQ. The 3.5 version seems pretty similar to me, so I don't see why the 3.0 FAQ wouldn't still apply.3.0 FAQ answers still apply unless the rules or text of the ability was changed in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5.