Knocking Opponents Fort Saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knocking Opponents Fort Saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shigure
11-20-07, 11:58 PM Poison has always been something i've wanted to use whenever I play a sneaky character but every time I really look into it the save DCs for the poisons I can afford are too low. And as you go up in lvl it doesn't seem to get better. When you can get more gold, and thus buy better poison, it doesn't matter cause you're opponents Fort saves are still just as good at stopping them.

But now I've come up with a challenge. I'll be playing a multi player solo cage match in a week and I want to pull out the poison. Each of us will be on our own and we'll have to knock each other out of the running. The problem with this is that as they'll be PCs their Fort saves are even worse then normal.

So the question is...how do I go about lowering that fort save, or making the poison DC higher, to increase my chances of actually pulling it off? I know about the DotU feat that helps by sacking SA dice to up the DC but my group doesn't have the book. So as a ninja, rogue, or assassin how do I do this? Feats? Or would items be better? And if so what kind of Items?
Killer_Rabbit
11-21-07, 12:34 AM Ask if you can use a poison varient rules set. A good one is called Wrecan's varient posion rules. They made Regars Repsoitory, so check in there.
Shigure
11-21-07, 12:56 AM Alternate rules are probably not gonna fly with my GM so it'll have to be something else.:(
Timmy00T
11-21-07, 10:38 AM Can a wizard Fabricate poisons for you?
Arlen
11-22-07, 07:05 PM (I have little experience in playing D&D, so take my advice with a grain of salt.)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison <- I was looking at a chart of poisons and noticed there were some nice poisons that could lower your opponent's Constitution.

1) Sassone Leaf Residue: Contact DC 16, Initial damage 2d12Hp, Secondary damage 1d6Con, 300gp
Since it's a contact DC, you can put it on a cloth and make touch attacks against that defensive warrior. Also, as far as I can tell from the SRD, you can use the same poison over and over (assuming you have multiple doses prepared), making that poor warrior roll almost every round. Finally, since secondary damage can occur even if they succeed against the intial damage, eventually their HP will bounce... one way or another. ^^

2a) Black adder venom: Injury DC 11, Initial damage 1d6Con, Secondary damage 1d6Con, 120gp
2b) Bloodroot: Injury DC 12, Initial damage 0, Secondary damage 1d4Con+1d3Wis, 100gp
2c) Greenblood Oil: Injury DC 13, Initial damage 1Con, Secondary damage 1d2Con, 100gp
All of these are relatively cheap poisons, all of which have low DCs as you mentioned earlier. I don't know how obtaining poisons work or what poisons you can use at what level, but if you could manage to use Sassone Leaf Residue to lower their Constitution just a bit, you could get some cheap weapons or arrows and apply these poisons.

Finally, as far as I know (which is very little), there are no spells/skills which can negate or lower a person's Fort save bonus from leveling. You can lower their Constitution to 1 and get them a -5 Con bonus, but if they have a +8 Fort bonus for being level 8, you'll still have a bit a trouble with them. But of course, if you make it to 0 they are considered dead. :D
dman11235
11-22-07, 11:17 PM Yeah, poison is not an easy thing to increase the DC of. There is the DotUD feat, I think that there is one in CScoundrel or BoVD. There is a spell on GantITP that gives a penalty on teir next fort save (3rd party). If you make the poison find better materials (higher HD spider for instance) and increase the craft DC (not sure where the rules outline is, possibly epic handbook for epic skill checks, find it in the SRD in my sig). Also, I consider DC 20 fort saves easy by level 15. As in, roll a 5 or higher usually.
xpochian
11-23-07, 01:03 AM maybe a single level in hexblade to attempt to curse them as a free action? if it hits, they get a -2 on all saves for an hour? might go a long way to chipping away that fort. save.
Sulacu
11-23-07, 01:24 AM Scroll of Cloudkill. Not even the most fearsome tanker comes out of one of those without a diminished constitution score.
1 ton ghost
11-23-07, 01:13 PM typically, in normal party attacks, not P vs. P, i recommend a team effort.
that is, everyone is assisting a the designated primary attacker. in this case, you.
-anyone can demoralize enemy via Intimidate, this puts you at -2 saves.
-clerics/magi can use debilitating magics in the same fashion further reducing saves. typically, Bane, Curses, and the like.

just remember, Delay is your friend. let them slag the victim's Saves first then you engage w/ poison.
also, as an assassin, you can opt to engage victim's Fort Save vs. your poison before he makes a 2nd Fort Save vs. Death attack. if his Con is lowered firstly from the venom, it stands to reason the follow up should work better.
Eogan
11-28-07, 05:45 AM If you're able to cast spells, e.g., by UMD or such, how about a scroll (or even better: a wand) of Bestow Curse (Cle 3, Sor/Wiz 4) for -4 on attacks/SAVES/checks? Needs a Will save, which usually isn't the greatest for classes that are good on Fort saves, especially tanks. To push it, use it twice: -6 on Con on the second use lowers Fort AND takes off HP. -- The Poison Master from Complete Scoundrel lets you add +1 to the DC of your poison, but that doesn't really rip it off...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shigure 11-20-07, 11:58 PM	Poison has always been something i've wanted to use whenever I play a sneaky character but every time I really look into it the save DCs for the poisons I can afford are too low. And as you go up in lvl it doesn't seem to get better. When you can get more gold, and thus buy better poison, it doesn't matter cause you're opponents Fort saves are still just as good at stopping them. But now I've come up with a challenge. I'll be playing a multi player solo cage match in a week and I want to pull out the poison. Each of us will be on our own and we'll have to knock each other out of the running. The problem with this is that as they'll be PCs their Fort saves are even worse then normal. So the question is...how do I go about lowering that fort save, or making the poison DC higher, to increase my chances of actually pulling it off? I know about the DotU feat that helps by sacking SA dice to up the DC but my group doesn't have the book. So as a ninja, rogue, or assassin how do I do this? Feats? Or would items be better? And if so what kind of Items?
Killer_Rabbit 11-21-07, 12:34 AM	Ask if you can use a poison varient rules set. A good one is called Wrecan's varient posion rules. They made Regars Repsoitory, so check in there.
Shigure 11-21-07, 12:56 AM	Alternate rules are probably not gonna fly with my GM so it'll have to be something else.:(
Timmy00T 11-21-07, 10:38 AM	Can a wizard Fabricate poisons for you?
Arlen 11-22-07, 07:05 PM	(I have little experience in playing D&D, so take my advice with a grain of salt.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison <- I was looking at a chart of poisons and noticed there were some nice poisons that could lower your opponent's Constitution. 1) Sassone Leaf Residue: Contact DC 16, Initial damage 2d12Hp, Secondary damage 1d6Con, 300gp Since it's a contact DC, you can put it on a cloth and make touch attacks against that defensive warrior. Also, as far as I can tell from the SRD, you can use the same poison over and over (assuming you have multiple doses prepared), making that poor warrior roll almost every round. Finally, since secondary damage can occur even if they succeed against the intial damage, eventually their HP will bounce... one way or another. ^^ 2a) Black adder venom: Injury DC 11, Initial damage 1d6Con, Secondary damage 1d6Con, 120gp 2b) Bloodroot: Injury DC 12, Initial damage 0, Secondary damage 1d4Con+1d3Wis, 100gp 2c) Greenblood Oil: Injury DC 13, Initial damage 1Con, Secondary damage 1d2Con, 100gp All of these are relatively cheap poisons, all of which have low DCs as you mentioned earlier. I don't know how obtaining poisons work or what poisons you can use at what level, but if you could manage to use Sassone Leaf Residue to lower their Constitution just a bit, you could get some cheap weapons or arrows and apply these poisons. Finally, as far as I know (which is very little), there are no spells/skills which can negate or lower a person's Fort save bonus from leveling. You can lower their Constitution to 1 and get them a -5 Con bonus, but if they have a +8 Fort bonus for being level 8, you'll still have a bit a trouble with them. But of course, if you make it to 0 they are considered dead. :D
dman11235 11-22-07, 11:17 PM	Yeah, poison is not an easy thing to increase the DC of. There is the DotUD feat, I think that there is one in CScoundrel or BoVD. There is a spell on GantITP that gives a penalty on teir next fort save (3rd party). If you make the poison find better materials (higher HD spider for instance) and increase the craft DC (not sure where the rules outline is, possibly epic handbook for epic skill checks, find it in the SRD in my sig). Also, I consider DC 20 fort saves easy by level 15. As in, roll a 5 or higher usually.
xpochian 11-23-07, 01:03 AM	maybe a single level in hexblade to attempt to curse them as a free action? if it hits, they get a -2 on all saves for an hour? might go a long way to chipping away that fort. save.
Sulacu 11-23-07, 01:24 AM	Scroll of Cloudkill. Not even the most fearsome tanker comes out of one of those without a diminished constitution score.
1 ton ghost 11-23-07, 01:13 PM	typically, in normal party attacks, not P vs. P, i recommend a team effort. that is, everyone is assisting a the designated primary attacker. in this case, you. -anyone can demoralize enemy via Intimidate, this puts you at -2 saves. -clerics/magi can use debilitating magics in the same fashion further reducing saves. typically, Bane, Curses, and the like. just remember, Delay is your friend. let them slag the victim's Saves first then you engage w/ poison. also, as an assassin, you can opt to engage victim's Fort Save vs. your poison before he makes a 2nd Fort Save vs. Death attack. if his Con is lowered firstly from the venom, it stands to reason the follow up should work better.
Eogan 11-28-07, 05:45 AM	If you're able to cast spells, e.g., by UMD or such, how about a scroll (or even better: a wand) of Bestow Curse (Cle 3, Sor/Wiz 4) for -4 on attacks/SAVES/checks? Needs a Will save, which usually isn't the greatest for classes that are good on Fort saves, especially tanks. To push it, use it twice: -6 on Con on the second use lowers Fort AND takes off HP. -- The Poison Master from Complete Scoundrel lets you add +1 to the DC of your poison, but that doesn't really rip it off...