Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silvermoon 08-27-07, 03:19 PM	I was wondering if I could stun a creature in one shot with a sap whatever hit point that he have. Situation 1 : A guard (50hp) is watching around a fire that no intruder surprise his other fellow during their sleep. But a thief arrives in his back and sap him. Situation 2 : 6 warriors return to camp, but when they pass thru the forest on a path, a thief follow them and catch the last guy of the line and knocked him without him seeing or earing anything Can I consider that a helpless foe? Otherwise, what suggestion can you tell me. Is there a rule or anything? Thanks Silvermoon
Vharuck 08-27-07, 03:40 PM	That's a very good question. You ask about helpless, so here's the definition from the SRD: Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity. Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace. Being unaware of an enemy is not being helpless; it's merely being flat-footed, allowing the rogue to apply Sneak Attack damage. What you're asking for is a method to totally bypass the Sneak Attack system and need for lethal damage. Per RAW, this is not possible, and for good reason. A lot of fights would be very anticlimactic if you could just set it up right so that a single whap on the head with a sap would finish any opponent. Now I know that you probably only intend to use this to take out the low-level, weak little "fodder" enemies. However, that's what Sneak Attacks are for. Allowing insta-KO would be very unbalancing to the game unless you restrict it to the weak characters, but then you'd achieve the same result using existing game mechanics by using nonlethal damage (increased by Sneak Attack, Power Attack, or something else) against the weak enemy's low hit points.
tarkin 08-27-07, 04:09 PM	The simple rule about helplessness is: If you went upto them and said "hello, you don't mind if I take your pants and gold do you?" then spend a full round doing that. If this is possible without them even trying to prevent you, then they were helpless. If instead you have started a fight then they were not helpless. Neither of the two situations you described had the people being helpless. Instead you had them being flat footed, and maybe denied dex becase they could not see you.
T_Stalker 08-27-07, 04:26 PM	I've been wondering how to one-shot knock out the lone sentry myself occasionally. The only thing I can think of right now, top of my head is: Sneak attack with a Bag of Holding! I don't know if this would be possible by RAW, actually, he could cut his way out automatically in one round, but come on, there has to be a way, right ? Other options would include the Silence spell, but it that would just make for a very quiet, normal battle.
ToastedAmphibian 08-27-07, 05:08 PM	I've been wondering how to one-shot knock out the lone sentry myself occasionally. The only thing I can think of right now, top of my head is: Sneak attack with a Bag of Holding! I don't know if this would be possible by RAW, actually, he could cut his way out automatically in one round, but come on, there has to be a way, right ? Other options would include the Silence spell, but it that would just make for a very quiet, normal battle. Bag of Holding? No..... Bag of Devouring? YESssss....... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#bagofDevouring
T_Stalker 08-27-07, 06:10 PM	Believe me, I've thought about that, but : Moderate conjuration; CL 17th; In effect, this is a creature and cannot be created; Price n/a. Can't wait to find one though.
Salla 08-27-07, 06:11 PM	I've been wondering how to one-shot knock out the lone sentry myself occasionally. The only thing I can think of right now, top of my head is: Sneak attack with a Bag of Holding! I don't know if this would be possible by RAW, actually, he could cut his way out automatically in one round, but come on, there has to be a way, right ? Other options would include the Silence spell, but it that would just make for a very quiet, normal battle. If your rogue sapping a lone sentry upside the head doesn't knock it out in one shot, either your dice crapped out, or your DM's town guard are too-high level. ;)