Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orochi_art 05-14-07, 08:49 AM	I don't know is it only me who is annoyed by DM who don't describe monsters, and most players by just mentioning the monsters name knows every single of his SA and SQ. Example: DM: You see a troll. Player 1: Damn that guy has regeneration. Player 2: Don't worry he is weak to fire. So I started to use good old knowledge skills. And also they must interact with NPC to know what they will battle, or when they battle the monster they see how their actions functions. For an example...in my new campaign, in the begining, they had telepatical conversation with a Pseudodragon. Because they didn't see him they wanted to know how he looks like. Yes he had wings, sharp teeth pair of horns and a tail. because they are all expirienced players you could think what they thought. And later when they saw a tiny dragon they almost fell from the chairs from laughing. Also there is no need to be drastic in this...So if a guy has a PC who lived near or with orcs he sure can recognize a orc..but he still need those appropriate knowledge skills to see for their SA and SQ. Then I like to give a +2 bonus on a check.
runestar 05-14-07, 09:07 AM	In the very least, you should be reading the descriptions listed in the MM. And for any player worth his salt, he should in the very least be able to guess what the party is up against just by hearing them and putting 2 and 2 together. The moment you read out "1.5 times as tall as human...long ungainly arms....rubbery hide...", it just screams troll. At least to me, since trolls are famous for their spindly limbs...:P
Orochi_art 05-14-07, 01:47 PM	In the very least, you should be reading the descriptions listed in the MM. And for any player worth his salt, he should in the very least be able to guess what the party is up against just by hearing them and putting 2 and 2 together. The moment you read out "1.5 times as tall as human...long ungainly arms....rubbery hide...", it just screams troll. At least to me, since trolls are famous for their spindly limbs...:P 1. I love to be original. 2. Also just by knowing creatures name, to be able to know each of his SQ and SA is really stupid. Okay, you can now BUT your PC can't or make a good excuse why he knows. For an example, 1st level character to know that hydra can regrow heads and that is weak to fire...yeah right. Excuse is... Example: he heard a bards tale. Okay, but still make a roll will you remember. What makes the game more exciting is to face the unknown. Thats why I love to play Call of Cthulhu. Thats when people are trying their best to win with everything they have. Not a party with a wizard that shoots out a fireball and asks: "What is next?" 3. Then how about this? You enter the cave...the air is stale and moisty. It looks like that there is no draft in here. You can barely see anything, because ilumination is very poor. What you can make out is that on one side of a cave there is some sort of a spring and some sort of moss is gathered there. On the other side of a cave their is a pile of bones and skulls, and what you can figure out is that they are from different creatures and that they are not here for same period of time. By looking at this you can figure out that whatever is inhabitant of this place, he is here for a long time. As you go deeper in the cave you see crates along the path. Some of them are still full, containing trading good which new owner didn't find use for. As you examinig this place...you can see a figure coming towards the entrance of the came. First you see a large figurine that holds something long in his arm and something like a bag in the other. As it reaches you you can clearly see that that long thing is a club, most likely a picked out tree, and in his other hand you can see something bloody and fury. As you look at the creature itself, you can see his animal heritage. His long muzzle resembles a predator like animal like a wolf, and it is full of sharp teeth that comes out, even with his mouth close. His forehead is flat and goes backwards. His arms are unusually long and you can guess that if you are catched by them you could be broken like a twig. In that moment creature sees, roars loudly, as the echo goes throgh the cave he rushes towards you. By the way, the thing is an ogre. Also i wrote it, just by replying to this post. No time was taken in advance, to prepare myself. I learned to use this approach from a very experieced DM.
runestar 05-14-07, 10:41 PM	Then there comes the problem of the PCs "accidentally" lucking out and chancing upon said monster's weaknesses. Yes, it might be construed as metagaming if they saw a troll and started shouting to each other to start breaking out the acid flasks. But their intentions could be much more subtle. What if they simply kept quiet(perhaps by tacit collusion) and just happened to "choose" said tactics? At lower lvs, some of the more common spells memorized by a mage include scorching ray and fireball. You can't logically fault the wizard for casting those at the troll. A rogue who hurls flasks of acid in conjunction with sneak attack is not a bad tactic either - you cannot possibly prevent him from doing so against a troll, even if you knew that. Nor can you conceivably say "No, you can't use fire or acid against that troll because that is exactly what it is vulnerable against". Your desc of the ogre is a very good one, I concur. But then there is still the problem of the mage making a successful knowledge check, announcing to the whole party "That is an ogre we are facing", and things may still go downhill from there, considering the problem you set out to resolve.:P
Orochi_art 05-15-07, 03:40 AM	Then there comes the problem of the PCs "accidentally" lucking out and chancing upon said monster's weaknesses. Yes, it might be construed as metagaming if they saw a troll and started shouting to each other to start breaking out the acid flasks. But their intentions could be much more subtle. What if they simply kept quiet(perhaps by tacit collusion) and just happened to "choose" said tactics? At lower lvs, some of the more common spells memorized by a mage include scorching ray and fireball. You can't logically fault the wizard for casting those at the troll. A rogue who hurls flasks of acid in conjunction with sneak attack is not a bad tactic either - you cannot possibly prevent him from doing so against a troll, even if you knew that. Nor can you conceivably say "No, you can't use fire or acid against that troll because that is exactly what it is vulnerable against". Your desc of the ogre is a very good one, I concur. But then there is still the problem of the mage making a successful knowledge check, announcing to the whole party "That is an ogre we are facing", and things may still go downhill from there, considering the problem you set out to resolve.:P I don't mind them using fireballs at all..or throwing a acid flask...that is common thing..but by just saying "It's a troll"...they start taking out acid flasks...-__- The main reason I made this thread is that people don't use descriptions, or more precisely DM. But players often use detail what their PC is doing. And often very detailed ones. So if you lack of inspiration don't just say "It's a troll" take an hour and prepare or read the description at very least. Like I sad in my first post I prefer that they use knowledge checks...that way they know that thing is a troll, if they pass a check. Player knows it, but his PC should make a check... This guy I know...he is really a lousy DM. (thank God I don't play at his campaigns.) The most stupid thing he did is this...you see a 1st level party and he is attacked by a Balor..-_- and they all go "Oooh s**t...it's a Balor..he has a +5 vorpal sword, and he is CR 20". Btw Balor did't let them out of that room, and they conviced him that what he is doing is wrong o.O and with some lame excuse, can't remember realy. So he is how to say main source of mine frustration with bad DM and lack of description.
Kouk 05-15-07, 04:56 AM	I would think most DMs call for Knowledge checks to identify creature special abilities. Even if a player has been around so long he knows the Monster Manual by heart, he should at least roleplay a new character as if he has no idea what it is. The players you describe are heavy meta-gamers, but if that is the only way to get them to stop then it is a good thing I guess. (I didn't quite get the description of the ogre, when you said it had animal features and teeth I started thinking it was some kind of werebear with a greatclub).
Orochi_art 05-15-07, 05:26 AM	Even if a player has been around so long he knows the Monster Manual by heart, he should at least roleplay a new character as if he has no idea what it is. Well thats is why you call it a Role Playing Game. (I didn't quite get the description of the ogre, when you said it had animal features and teeth I started thinking it was some kind of werebear with a greatclub). well thats the point...when you describe, different people see different things. It is more realistic. Thats why I love that approach, not I give you a name and you know what it is.
PandaDragon 05-15-07, 07:48 AM	Ive got a question now how do you know exactly which knowlage check for a monster? theres a certian amunt of common sence (dragon=arcana, ooze=dungenering) but what about the type that arnt listed sure a lynthorpe will probably be knowlage nature but what others that my not fit perfectly in to one type or another? Knowlage kobold any one?
JWT 05-15-07, 11:03 AM	You enter the cave...the air is stale and moisty. It looks like that there is no draft in here. You can barely see anything, because ilumination is very poor. What you can make out is that on one side of a cave there is some sort of a spring and some sort of moss is gathered there. On the other side of a cave their is a pile of bones and skulls, and what you can figure out is that they are from different creatures and that they are not here for same period of time. By looking at this you can figure out that whatever is inhabitant of this place, he is here for a long time. As you go deeper in the cave you see crates along the path. Some of them are still full, containing trading good which new owner didn't find use for. As you examinig this place...you can see a figure coming towards the entrance of the came. First you see a large figurine that holds something long in his arm and something like a bag in the other. As it reaches you you can clearly see that that long thing is a club, most likely a picked out tree, and in his other hand you can see something bloody and fury. As you look at the creature itself, you can see his animal heritage. His long muzzle resembles a predator like animal like a wolf, and it is full of sharp teeth that comes out, even with his mouth close. His forehead is flat and goes backwards. His arms are unusually long and you can guess that if you are catched by them you could be broken like a twig. In that moment creature sees, roars loudly, as the echo goes throgh the cave he rushes towards you. No offense dude, but at least in my game that is WAY too much fluff. I would loose my players barely halfway in to the first paragraph. In fact I can see the encounter going like this. ME: You enter the cave...the air is stale and moisty. It looks like that there is no draft in here. You can barely see anything, because ilumination is very poor. What you can make out is that on one side of a cave.... SIR KILLSALOT: I charge it and kill it.
SALDAR 05-15-07, 05:26 PM	Ive got a question now how do you know exactly which knowlage check for a monster? theres a certian amunt of common sence (dragon=arcana, ooze=dungenering) but what about the type that arnt listed sure a lynthorpe will probably be knowlage nature but what others that my not fit perfectly in to one type or another? Knowlage kobold any one? Each creature has a Type and all the Types fall under one of the Knowledge skills in the PHB. A kobold is a Humanoid so you would use Knowledge (Local). A lycanthrope is either a Humanoid or a Giant with the Shapechanger subtype so you would use Knowledge (Local) for a Humanoid lycanthrope or Knowledge (Nature) for a Giant lycanthrope.
malignor 05-15-07, 05:51 PM	If the players actually play by the rules, there are rules for identifying monsters. Knowledge (Arcana) is for magical beasts, dragons and constructs, to name one. DC is 10+HD. You probably already knew this. But also consider this. When PCs scribble up a past (or lack thereof) their town may be one where orcs are a common problem. When that happens, orcs are then available as common knowledge (knowledge DC10; untrained available). But what is common knowledge is generally decided by the DM. There are some other ideas too. I could be a fighter, son of a dragon slayer. My father has spent years studying dragons, like his father before him. So thanks to my background, dragon abilities up to, say, CR 12 are common knowledge to me. Making me take ranks in Know Arcana (cross-class) would be retarded, since I didn't study Manticores, Gryphons, Golems or Fiendish Vermin. I'm saved the hassle of spending my precious 2/level ranks on a knowledge skill that only partially fits my background. Instead the DM grants me some common knowledge. When we stumble across a dragon, I get to make my Intelligence check DC 10 to remember some the abilities of that green dragon terrorizing that village. This is a good example of where the DM can use Common Knowledge as a tool to support background information. Now if your party "coincidentally" uses fire on the troll, despite PC knowledge and previous patterns of action, that's something between you and them. When players cheat, game mechanics don't really fix anything - it's a person issue. A decent houserule for knowledge checks is to ignore the DCs in the SRD and just go by the spread of myth and lore. For example, if using the Arabian Nights theme, the DC to learn a geenie's abilities would be only 10 or 15, as childhood stories, rumors and legends would be common to PCs during their development. But the special abilities of a Frost Giant would be 20-30 because a Frost Giant is alien to them and to their environment. Meanwhile a Grick may exist in some tales, but those are far and few between indeed, so some research is needed... DC 20. Of course, where does this leave the Bard? Why, the Bard has the benefit of getting ALL knowledge checks to identify creatures. The Bard has an ear for tales and myths, and is always learning more. Plus, if the Bard has the skill as well, he may even get 2 chances to remember.
Kouk 05-15-07, 08:03 PM	Well thats is why you call it a Role Playing Game. If they are already roleplaying, what is the problem? well thats the point...when you describe, different people see different things. It is more realistic. Thats why I love that approach, not I give you a name and you know what it is. I dunno, I can see why it is interesting but people should really see the same thing unless they are suffering from some kind of hallucination or mental problems.
Orochi_art 05-16-07, 06:35 AM	No offense dude, but at least in my game that is WAY too much fluff. I would loose my players barely halfway in to the first paragraph. In fact I can see the encounter going like this. ME: You enter the cave...the air is stale and moisty. It looks like that there is no draft in here. You can barely see anything, because ilumination is very poor. What you can make out is that on one side of a cave.... SIR KILLSALOT: I charge it and kill it. You are more straight foward then me, sometimes it is better, sometimes it isn't. If people are exploring something then it is better (at least for me) to detail. Then their are interested in what they see. No "We enter, we fight, we win, we loot, we go out." Unless you roleplay that kind of PC, but entire party of hack and slash people...no thank you. If they are already roleplaying, what is the problem? Like I said...No "We enter, we fight, we win, we loot, we go out." Unless you roleplay that kind of PC, but entire party of hack and slash people...no thank you." I dunno, I can see why it is interesting but people should really see the same thing unless they are suffering from some kind of hallucination or mental problems. They see the same thing, but they visualize it different.
Arem_K 05-16-07, 08:27 AM	I like enforcing the rules for identifying monsters, but I don't like doing it for puzzle monsters. The game becomes surreal if the players react realistically to their surroundings in such a scenario. DM: The lanky green creatures shuffles forward. Each long ape-like arm is topped with fearsome claws. It smiles, showing fearsome yellow teeth and rushes forward. *Slash, stab, crunch, hack* Fighter: Well, that was difficult but it seems we have vanquished the fell beast. Rogue: Does he have any good stuff, where does he keep his stuff? DM keeps track of the subdual damamge and realizes its time: Suddenly, the creature rises again. Cleric: By Pelor it is still alive! *slash, stab crunch, hack, BASH* Fighter: Well, that was exhilarating, but this time the monster is definitely dead. Rogue: To the most heroic part of our job, the looting. DM: The troll groans and raises its tortured body to continue to battle. Cleric: What manner of hideous fiend could survive such wounds! Fighter: Alight guys, kill it a lot! slash, stab crunch, hack, BASH...SLASH, STAB, CRUNCH, HACK, BASH, EVISCERATE, TEAR, REND, BREAK, PENETRATE, PIERCE, GASH,THRUST, GORE, SHANK, WOUND, PUNCTURE, RAM, PUREE,........RUN THROUGH. Fighter: Okay, this time it's dead. Rogue: Totally. Cleric: .... Fighter: Nothing could have survived that. Rogue: Absolutely nothin' Cleric: ..... Fighter: We don't have to keep watching it anymore. We can turn our backs and continue our quest and there is no chance that it will wake up again. Rogue: ...Maybe just a few more minutes... Cleric: .... DM: Suddenly, the creature you thought you had defeated moves... Cleric: AW GAWD SONOVA*** WHAT THE FRICKEN *** DOES IT TAKE TO **** THIS **** ****!!! Fighter: I BLAME YOU FOR THIS!!! Rogue: Me? What did I do! Fighter: You are the one who knows all about weakspots. How can you have possibly missed every single vital organ on this thing? Rogue: I am hitting the vital spots. I don't think it even has kidneys anymore. *After several hours of repeatedly knocking the troll unconscious, the party eventually sent the rogue back the town, the plan being that he would find someone who knew what to do while the cleric and fighter repeatedly stabbed the thing to keep it knocked out. It was a three day round trip, so they had to do it in shifts.
Kouk 05-16-07, 11:10 AM	I like enforcing the rules for identifying monsters, but I don't like doing it for puzzle monsters. The game becomes surreal if the players react realistically to their surroundings in such a scenario. I don't know... that seemed hilarious.
malignor 05-16-07, 11:21 AM	Aside from that, people forget that there are other alternatives to killing things like Trolls. Roleplaying the discovery of these methods can also be fun. For example, in an old game of mine, the party observed a fight between a tribe of ogres and a couple trolls. When an ogre beat a troll down, he would jump on top of the knocked out troll, stuff mud and dirt down its throat and smother it. To this day, the PCs of that group employ smothering and drowning as a standard method of killing creatures with regeneration. They have yet to figure out the fire & acid trick. Keep in mind the players themselves knew full well about the fire & acid thing, but when they learned this other method they thought it was amusing. Even now, in other games, their PCs handle "unkillables" by going down the list of lethal methods: - hack/beat/stab em - bury/drown/smother em - burn/freeze/electrocute/dissolve em - poison em (ability damage) - life drain em - combinations of the above (cut em into pieces, burn the pieces and bury em in different locations; decapitate em, chain the body to a rock and throw it into the ocean, and bury the head on shore; you get the idea) If push comes to shove, trap em in a cave-in, or bind them to the bottom of the sea, or bury em alive, or cast them into another world where the residents aren't so friendly (the Abyss is a safe bet). Even the Tarrasque can be drowned or buried alive, and thus rendered as close to dead as it'll get (without a Wish).
Peregrine_Wolf 05-16-07, 03:51 PM	I agree that playesr should have to try and ID monsters throughout the game. But, this is kind of defeated when players already have fought them in other games etc. Also, metagames make rolepleying REALLY difficult..... :weep:
UnknownMourner 05-16-07, 11:00 PM	I always just make up the descriptions, then use the stats for whatever I want them to fight. It may say troll behind my DM screen, but to my players it's "a big blue lobster man dripping green fluid from it's snake tail" or whatever.