Knowledge (anatomy)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knowledge (anatomy)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lady_Dragon
09-06-07, 06:08 AM One of the central ideas that has devlopment for an upcoming campaign world is that magical healing is actually not precise enough for serious internal injuries. In this world, there are doctors who work in concert with healers on complicated procedures to repair shatterd bones or even to transplant organs (I would be removing the regeneration spell). My key villain is a doctor and therefore has a highly lethal knowledge of the body. I was just going to give him max ranks in Profession (doctor), BUT someone else suggested the idea of knowledge (anatomy).

A skill like this would have many real-world effects for PC's. Some ideas we came up with are:
Bonuses to heal checks
Additional points healed with cure spells
Additional damage dealt on inflict spells

I was also thinking about the ability to deal extra damage in combat, but I don't want to give basically anybody the ability to sneak attack, which is what this would do, I think. Maybe just a d4 per 5 or 10 ranks? Or maybe this skill only functions on a coup de grace?

I don't know. I sort of like the idea, but I think it might be unbalancing. What do you think? Do you have any other functions for a skill like this?
NeueRegel
09-06-07, 08:13 AM One of the central ideas that has devlopment for an upcoming campaign world is that magical healing is actually not precise enough for serious internal injuries. In this world, there are doctors who work in concert with healers on complicated procedures to repair shatterd bones or even to transplant organs (I would be removing the regeneration spell). My key villain is a doctor and therefore has a highly lethal knowledge of the body. I was just going to give him max ranks in Profession (doctor), BUT someone else suggested the idea of knowledge (anatomy).

I don't particularly care for this idea, it would change the entire dynamics of the game as it is played by most people now. However, I'm not most people, we play a very low magic game ourselves, though we have never tried to incorporate "modern tech" into it, medicinally or other; This would steal the "thunder" from our main healing classes, druids and bards.

A skill like this would have many real-world effects for PC's. Some ideas we came up with are:
Bonuses to heal checks
Additional points healed with cure spells
Additional damage dealt on inflict spells

I was also thinking about the ability to deal extra damage in combat, but I don't want to give basically anybody the ability to sneak attack, which is what this would do, I think. Maybe just a d4 per 5 or 10 ranks? Or maybe this skill only functions on a coup de grace?

The things you mention here are two-fold. To go in reverse, I'd very certainly say that the rogue/assassin/whatever ability for sneak attack is the very definition of "knowledge (anatomy)". But never, ever forget that the maxim of nature is that it is easier to destroy than it is to create (or in this case, rebuild). This is termed the law of entropy. (Not to be confused with various spells or ideas of magic in that vein) {Pardon the Pun!}

I would give any doctor the ability to do more damage, so to speak, but I'm not sure how I would mix that completely with the implied "sneak attack"...knowledge of anatomy does not imply the class abilities of using stealth or what-not.

On the other hand, I have a feeling I know where you might be coming from with your bbeg... *Visions of Hanibal Lector dancing in his head* (Loved the scenes where he knows how to strike arteries and such with the hawkbilled blade in the books)

I don't know. I sort of like the idea, but I think it might be unbalancing. What do you think? Do you have any other functions for a skill like this?

What do I think? I don't think it's workable from the healing side, and though it's a wonderful if fanciful idea, I don't think it would work in a D&D setting, where the players want instant gratification and suspension of reality about healing and the heroic "bounce-back". You'd end up trying to give a million factors like broken bone knit times, movement rates, off hand weapon use, dazed/confused concussion factors, and a myriad other plethora nightmare situations that no heroic character (or player) can make a good story of, outside of a good book.

That all said, I don't know you, nor do I know your players. Who knows? Maybe you could make it work.

Good luck, Good gaming,
Follow that Hippocratic Oath!

NeueRegel
Lady_Dragon
09-06-07, 08:36 AM I don't think it steals their thunder at all. Any class capable of casting a cure spell can still heal more straightforward injuries...gashes and straight fractures...things of that nature. They would not need the aid of a doctor unless they suffered some kind of massive internal, physical damage. I can't see it effecting the players themselves much if at all (I'm not in the habit of dealing that much damage in a hit or lopping off limbs). Besides, the modern medicine aspect will not be that far advanced in that there is no chemical compounds and thus no non-naturally occurring medicines.

Calling the extra damage "sneak attack" was a poor turn of phrase, my apologies. No, it doesn't make them sneakier, but what it could or would do would allow them to, as you said, strike a critical part of the body (more like what a ranger can do by studying a particular enemy). Hannibal Lector? Not quite, but close. :devil:

Thanks for your input! :)
Far_Traveler
09-06-07, 08:43 AM Um, the Heal skill already covers this, with the heal skill you can perform surgeries (see: Necrotic Cyst in the Libris Mortis), so it stands to follow that the heal skill can be used instead of Knowledge (anatomy)
Lady_Dragon
09-06-07, 08:48 AM Well, alright, but can heal also be used for the opposite?
Also, if someone has ranks in profession (doctor), would they still need ranks in heal. Heal always seemed like a generic first-aid thing to me. I'll have to check out the libris mortis for the surgery thing.

Thanks.
LeuktheSavior
09-06-07, 09:26 AM ranks in anatomy+ the psions telekentic thrust ability=instakill. you could put pressure on certain arteries, apply pressure to the heart, brust their kidney inside of them...its sickening what knowledge anatomy would give you. of course therew ould be fort saves, but i would make them raise each round that you applied pressure to that locale.
I have so many ideas right now....
Lady_Dragon
09-06-07, 09:33 AM I really don't want to introduce an ability that, used that way, seems to be way too powerful. Although I don't use psionics, so it's not really an issue.
Glad to have given you ideas though. :)
Dalthbar
09-06-07, 09:34 AM My question is this - is what you're trying to do even worth the effort? Will it ever be an in-game issue?

More specifically, how frequently do you assign a hit as having "broken a PC's bones" or done more serious damage than would be healable by a cure X wounds spell? And if you're going to be doing that, how are you going to be determining these factors? How do you know if someone has their arm broken or not? And if so, what are the exact penalties for broken bones - ribs, arms, fingers, legs, feet, etc.?

The Sharpness ability no longer exists in-game, so you won't have people losing limbs "easily". If you do have a PC that loses a limb, it's going to be due to something you specifically want to happen as a DM (in which case you just pull out Rule 0). And the only real "lose body parts" ability left is vorpal - which wouldn't really apply to what you're doing since it's insta-death.

So while I can understand why you'd want to explore this concept due to flavor and world development, does it make sense to really spend this much time doing it?
Lady_Dragon
09-06-07, 09:45 AM Worth the effort? - maybe not
In-game issue - not for PC's
How often do I assign specific hits? - never

Yes, it's just flavor really. I'm not really spending much time on it. Just an idea.
Dalthbar
09-06-07, 10:06 AM My suggestion then, from a DM point of view, is to have a "rough idea" how you want it to work and just "wing it".

As the DM, this is your privilege. As long as you don't abuse or overdo it, the PCs won't be the wiser and you don't need to bog yourself down with all these nuanced details that will do nothing more than consume time that may be better spent doing other things.

If you want your NPC to do XYZ, then they can. Ta-da :)
Schmendrick
09-06-07, 07:37 PM Um, the Heal skill already covers this, with the heal skill you can perform surgeries (see: Necrotic Cyst in the Libris Mortis), so it stands to follow that the heal skill can be used instead of Knowledge (anatomy)

The OP specifically stated that this is for a specific, nonstandard campaign. He's already redefined the difference between "surgery required" injuries and others, so it's perfectly natural that the Heal skill would be changed accordingly.

Personally, I'd require a double check for surgery: Knowledge (anatomy) for whether or not the healer in question can perform the surgery, and Heal for the actual activity.

For bonus damage, you could do what a group of mine once did in a Star Wars campaign; for every 5 ranks, you gain effects similar to Favored Enemy, so at 5 ranks you would get one, at 10 ranks you could either improve the one or add a second, etc.

Then again, there was no FE class feature in the SW rules, so in order to avoid stepping on rangers' toes in this game, you may want to cut the bonus in half.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lady_Dragon 09-06-07, 06:08 AM	One of the central ideas that has devlopment for an upcoming campaign world is that magical healing is actually not precise enough for serious internal injuries. In this world, there are doctors who work in concert with healers on complicated procedures to repair shatterd bones or even to transplant organs (I would be removing the regeneration spell). My key villain is a doctor and therefore has a highly lethal knowledge of the body. I was just going to give him max ranks in Profession (doctor), BUT someone else suggested the idea of knowledge (anatomy). A skill like this would have many real-world effects for PC's. Some ideas we came up with are: Bonuses to heal checks Additional points healed with cure spells Additional damage dealt on inflict spells I was also thinking about the ability to deal extra damage in combat, but I don't want to give basically anybody the ability to sneak attack, which is what this would do, I think. Maybe just a d4 per 5 or 10 ranks? Or maybe this skill only functions on a coup de grace? I don't know. I sort of like the idea, but I think it might be unbalancing. What do you think? Do you have any other functions for a skill like this?
NeueRegel 09-06-07, 08:13 AM	One of the central ideas that has devlopment for an upcoming campaign world is that magical healing is actually not precise enough for serious internal injuries. In this world, there are doctors who work in concert with healers on complicated procedures to repair shatterd bones or even to transplant organs (I would be removing the regeneration spell). My key villain is a doctor and therefore has a highly lethal knowledge of the body. I was just going to give him max ranks in Profession (doctor), BUT someone else suggested the idea of knowledge (anatomy). I don't particularly care for this idea, it would change the entire dynamics of the game as it is played by most people now. However, I'm not most people, we play a very low magic game ourselves, though we have never tried to incorporate "modern tech" into it, medicinally or other; This would steal the "thunder" from our main healing classes, druids and bards. A skill like this would have many real-world effects for PC's. Some ideas we came up with are: Bonuses to heal checks Additional points healed with cure spells Additional damage dealt on inflict spells I was also thinking about the ability to deal extra damage in combat, but I don't want to give basically anybody the ability to sneak attack, which is what this would do, I think. Maybe just a d4 per 5 or 10 ranks? Or maybe this skill only functions on a coup de grace? The things you mention here are two-fold. To go in reverse, I'd very certainly say that the rogue/assassin/whatever ability for sneak attack is the very definition of "knowledge (anatomy)". But never, ever forget that the maxim of nature is that it is easier to destroy than it is to create (or in this case, rebuild). This is termed the law of entropy. (Not to be confused with various spells or ideas of magic in that vein) {Pardon the Pun!} I would give any doctor the ability to do more damage, so to speak, but I'm not sure how I would mix that completely with the implied "sneak attack"...knowledge of anatomy does not imply the class abilities of using stealth or what-not. On the other hand, I have a feeling I know where you might be coming from with your bbeg... Visions of Hanibal Lector dancing in his head (Loved the scenes where he knows how to strike arteries and such with the hawkbilled blade in the books) I don't know. I sort of like the idea, but I think it might be unbalancing. What do you think? Do you have any other functions for a skill like this? What do I think? I don't think it's workable from the healing side, and though it's a wonderful if fanciful idea, I don't think it would work in a D&D setting, where the players want instant gratification and suspension of reality about healing and the heroic "bounce-back". You'd end up trying to give a million factors like broken bone knit times, movement rates, off hand weapon use, dazed/confused concussion factors, and a myriad other plethora nightmare situations that no heroic character (or player) can make a good story of, outside of a good book. That all said, I don't know you, nor do I know your players. Who knows? Maybe you could make it work. Good luck, Good gaming, Follow that Hippocratic Oath! NeueRegel
Lady_Dragon 09-06-07, 08:36 AM	I don't think it steals their thunder at all. Any class capable of casting a cure spell can still heal more straightforward injuries...gashes and straight fractures...things of that nature. They would not need the aid of a doctor unless they suffered some kind of massive internal, physical damage. I can't see it effecting the players themselves much if at all (I'm not in the habit of dealing that much damage in a hit or lopping off limbs). Besides, the modern medicine aspect will not be that far advanced in that there is no chemical compounds and thus no non-naturally occurring medicines. Calling the extra damage "sneak attack" was a poor turn of phrase, my apologies. No, it doesn't make them sneakier, but what it could or would do would allow them to, as you said, strike a critical part of the body (more like what a ranger can do by studying a particular enemy). Hannibal Lector? Not quite, but close. :devil: Thanks for your input! :)
Far_Traveler 09-06-07, 08:43 AM	Um, the Heal skill already covers this, with the heal skill you can perform surgeries (see: Necrotic Cyst in the Libris Mortis), so it stands to follow that the heal skill can be used instead of Knowledge (anatomy)
Lady_Dragon 09-06-07, 08:48 AM	Well, alright, but can heal also be used for the opposite? Also, if someone has ranks in profession (doctor), would they still need ranks in heal. Heal always seemed like a generic first-aid thing to me. I'll have to check out the libris mortis for the surgery thing. Thanks.
LeuktheSavior 09-06-07, 09:26 AM	ranks in anatomy+ the psions telekentic thrust ability=instakill. you could put pressure on certain arteries, apply pressure to the heart, brust their kidney inside of them...its sickening what knowledge anatomy would give you. of course therew ould be fort saves, but i would make them raise each round that you applied pressure to that locale. I have so many ideas right now....
Lady_Dragon 09-06-07, 09:33 AM	I really don't want to introduce an ability that, used that way, seems to be way too powerful. Although I don't use psionics, so it's not really an issue. Glad to have given you ideas though. :)
Dalthbar 09-06-07, 09:34 AM	My question is this - is what you're trying to do even worth the effort? Will it ever be an in-game issue? More specifically, how frequently do you assign a hit as having "broken a PC's bones" or done more serious damage than would be healable by a cure X wounds spell? And if you're going to be doing that, how are you going to be determining these factors? How do you know if someone has their arm broken or not? And if so, what are the exact penalties for broken bones - ribs, arms, fingers, legs, feet, etc.? The Sharpness ability no longer exists in-game, so you won't have people losing limbs "easily". If you do have a PC that loses a limb, it's going to be due to something you specifically want to happen as a DM (in which case you just pull out Rule 0). And the only real "lose body parts" ability left is vorpal - which wouldn't really apply to what you're doing since it's insta-death. So while I can understand why you'd want to explore this concept due to flavor and world development, does it make sense to really spend this much time doing it?
Lady_Dragon 09-06-07, 09:45 AM	Worth the effort? - maybe not In-game issue - not for PC's How often do I assign specific hits? - never Yes, it's just flavor really. I'm not really spending much time on it. Just an idea.
Dalthbar 09-06-07, 10:06 AM	My suggestion then, from a DM point of view, is to have a "rough idea" how you want it to work and just "wing it". As the DM, this is your privilege. As long as you don't abuse or overdo it, the PCs won't be the wiser and you don't need to bog yourself down with all these nuanced details that will do nothing more than consume time that may be better spent doing other things. If you want your NPC to do XYZ, then they can. Ta-da :)
Schmendrick 09-06-07, 07:37 PM	Um, the Heal skill already covers this, with the heal skill you can perform surgeries (see: Necrotic Cyst in the Libris Mortis), so it stands to follow that the heal skill can be used instead of Knowledge (anatomy) The OP specifically stated that this is for a specific, nonstandard campaign. He's already redefined the difference between "surgery required" injuries and others, so it's perfectly natural that the Heal skill would be changed accordingly. Personally, I'd require a double check for surgery: Knowledge (anatomy) for whether or not the healer in question can perform the surgery, and Heal for the actual activity. For bonus damage, you could do what a group of mine once did in a Star Wars campaign; for every 5 ranks, you gain effects similar to Favored Enemy, so at 5 ranks you would get one, at 10 ranks you could either improve the one or add a second, etc. Then again, there was no FE class feature in the SW rules, so in order to avoid stepping on rangers' toes in this game, you may want to cut the bonus in half.