Knowledge Checks: Can I get your opinion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knowledge Checks: Can I get your opinion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CowMasterTrojan
02-26-07, 01:39 AM Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ?
SenorToenails
02-26-07, 02:09 AM Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ?

Given that it says a DC10+HD check identifies and a successful check gives a useful bit of information, then I would say you get useful info right off the bat, but more with a 15+HD, 20+HD, etc...
InkBlot
02-26-07, 02:25 AM Identifying the creature should give you more than just a name for it. If you can ID the creature, than you must at least know what a common member of it's species looks like. It would become obvious if the individual you were looking at looked different from the norm for it's species.

For example:
DM "You see an 30-feet wide blood-red turtle monster comes barreling out of the forest, trampling all in it's path."
Player "I'm going to try a knowledge check to ID it." (rollls and gets a 58) "Whoo-hoo! A 58!"
DM "It's the Tarrasque. It eats cities for breakfast, and it isn't supposed to be red."
Vegepygmy
02-26-07, 01:48 PM In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ?It identifies the creature and tells you your first piece of useful information at DC 10+HD. I've highlighted the key words in your rules-quote above.
CowMasterTrojan
02-26-07, 02:14 PM It identifies the creature and tells you your first piece of useful information at DC 10+HD. I've highlighted the key words in your rules-quote above.

Thank you for highlighting words that I had already read, and posted. That was so useful.:rolleyes:

Anyway, perhaps I should add the other side of the arguement. Apparently it's being argued that the name of a creature is a useful piece of information, and therefore you wouldn't get anything about the creature (Other than the name) until 15+HD and beyond.

So again, rather than showing me the context of the skill I've already seen, can I get your opinion?
Vegepygmy
02-26-07, 03:36 PM I've given you my opinion. I also highlighted the key words because it appeared from your question that you either hadn't noticed them, or hadn't understood them.

I can't really help you with "the other side of the argument." If someone is going to assert that the name of a creature is a "useful piece of information," they are clearly not interested in reasonably discussing the matter.
Jaxgaret
02-26-07, 03:43 PM Apparently it's being argued that the name of a creature is a useful piece of information, and therefore you wouldn't get anything about the creature (Other than the name) until 15+HD and beyond.

So again, rather than showing me the context of the skill I've already seen, can I get your opinion?

My opinion: knowing the name of a creature is not useful in the slightest.

What does it matter if the creature's name is the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Trall, or the Perfectly Normal Beast, or anything else? It doesn't make one whit of difference.
CowMasterTrojan
02-26-07, 06:40 PM I've given you my opinion. I also highlighted the key words because it appeared from your question that you either hadn't noticed them, or hadn't understood them.

I can't really help you with "the other side of the argument." If someone is going to assert that the name of a creature is a "useful piece of information," they are clearly not interested in reasonably discussing the matter.

Listen, I'm not trying to be mean here, but frankly highlighting what I've already posted is not helpful. I'm not of either opinions, so don't start making assumptions that I'm getting pissy because I not. I'm posting this as a unbiased mediator. The situation I'm in has the DM saying that the name of a creature is useful, and another player is saying its not.

The DM argues that saying something is a construct (or dragon or humanoid) is useful because most players can recognize something out of game and use that information against the creature with just a name. Good examples-Werewolf-You automatically know to use silver. vampires-Garlic, sunllight,moving water, etc. Kobolds-There's traps coming. So that is the Dm's argument.

The other player argues that a name is not useful.

All I'm asking for is a general opinion, because it's obviously a interpretation thing. It's not a matter of reasonably discussing anything. I just want to know how different people interpret it and why. Don't argue over it, don't discredit others, just give me opinions.
Thank you
Dracomortis
02-26-07, 07:27 PM MMIV features lore for all of the creatures, and uses (in my opinion the much better) method of 10 + CR to determine the base DC. However, translated into HD, this is generally what you get.

10 + HD: The creature's name, its type (and subtypes, if applicable), as well as the traits of that type.
15 + HD: A bit of information about the creature's general combat tactics (if it moves particularly fast, if it prefers ambush, if it can use spells, etc.).
20 + HD: More in-depth information, such as specific abilities (such as an assassin vine's ability to animate plants or a beholder's ability to nullify magic).
25 + HD: This check reveals some little-know fact about the creature that may help in defeating it - such as a behir's tendency to back off from overpowering opponents or a displacer beast's racial hatred of blink dogs.
Krusk
02-26-07, 07:33 PM The DM argues that saying something is a construct (or dragon or humanoid) is useful because most players can recognize something out of game and use that information against the creature with just a name. Good examples-Werewolf-You automatically know to use silver. vampires-Garlic, sunllight,moving water, etc. Kobolds-There's traps coming. So that is the Dm's argument.

The thing is. Technically giving the name does not reveal vampire use silver.
So by your dm assuming you know these things, he is saying the name is useful. If it is played without this, characters do not know vampire means silver weapons. Meaning on a dc 10+HD the dm should say you "you know vampire, use silver"

Your dm is leaving it to you to assume "vampire" means "vampire use silver.
CowMasterTrojan
02-26-07, 08:05 PM MMIV features lore for all of the creatures, and uses (in my opinion the much better) method of 10 + CR to determine the base DC. However, translated into HD, this is generally what you get.

10 + HD: The creature's name, its type (and subtypes, if applicable), as well as the traits of that type.
15 + HD: A bit of information about the creature's general combat tactics (if it moves particularly fast, if it prefers ambush, if it can use spells, etc.).
20 + HD: More in-depth information, such as specific abilities (such as an assassin vine's ability to animate plants or a beholder's ability to nullify magic).
25 + HD: This check reveals some little-know fact about the creature that may help in defeating it - such as a behir's tendency to back off from overpowering opponents or a displacer beast's racial hatred of blink dogs.

That's nice and layed out. The DM might like that. Thanks.
Dracomortis
02-26-07, 08:20 PM No problem.
primemover003
02-26-07, 09:01 PM According to the Tactics and Tips articles:
A Peek Behind the Rules Curtain

So how do designers determine the Difficulty Class for Knowledge checks about creatures? The following is excerpted from Monster Manual IV:

The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special powers or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster's HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78).

As a general rule of thumb, a DC 15 check or higher will reveal all of the base creature's type and subtype traits as defined in the glossary. This often includes information about energy resistance or various immunities. For instance, a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check reveals that dragons have high hit points (12-sided HD), all good saves, and have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. They eat, sleep, and breathe.

Information specific to the creature, such as its type of damage resistance, spell-like abilities, or immunities come with the high DC check results.
So an example of this is the Red Dragon
Red Dragon Lore

Characters with ranks in Knowledge (arcana) can learn more about red dragons. When a character makes a successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including the information from lower DCs.

Knowledge (Arcana)

DC Result

15 This also reveals the fire subtype.

20 The breath weapon of a red dragon produces a cone of fire.

25 Red dragons are immune to fire, but vulnerable to cold. At various stages of its life, a red dragon gains damage reduction: young adult -- DR 5/magic, mature adult -- DR 10/magic, very old -- DR 15/magic, and wyrm -- DR 20/magic.

30 At various stages of its life, a red dragon gains the following special abilities: juvenile -- locate object, old -- suggestion, ancient -- find the path, great wyrm -- discern location.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CowMasterTrojan 02-26-07, 01:39 AM	Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions). In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ?
SenorToenails 02-26-07, 02:09 AM	Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ? Given that it says a DC10+HD check identifies and a successful check gives a useful bit of information, then I would say you get useful info right off the bat, but more with a 15+HD, 20+HD, etc...
InkBlot 02-26-07, 02:25 AM	Identifying the creature should give you more than just a name for it. If you can ID the creature, than you must at least know what a common member of it's species looks like. It would become obvious if the individual you were looking at looked different from the norm for it's species. For example: DM "You see an 30-feet wide blood-red turtle monster comes barreling out of the forest, trampling all in it's path." Player "I'm going to try a knowledge check to ID it." (rollls and gets a 58) "Whoo-hoo! A 58!" DM "It's the Tarrasque. It eats cities for breakfast, and it isn't supposed to be red."
Vegepygmy 02-26-07, 01:48 PM	In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.Okay, I'm looking for your interpretation on this skill. Does this skill allow you to identify a creature with a DC of 10+hd, and then give you your first piece of useful knowledge at 15+HD, or does it identify the creature and tell you your first peice of useful information at 10+HD ?It identifies the creature and tells you your first piece of useful information at DC 10+HD. I've highlighted the key words in your rules-quote above.
CowMasterTrojan 02-26-07, 02:14 PM	It identifies the creature and tells you your first piece of useful information at DC 10+HD. I've highlighted the key words in your rules-quote above. Thank you for highlighting words that I had already read, and posted. That was so useful.:rolleyes: Anyway, perhaps I should add the other side of the arguement. Apparently it's being argued that the name of a creature is a useful piece of information, and therefore you wouldn't get anything about the creature (Other than the name) until 15+HD and beyond. So again, rather than showing me the context of the skill I've already seen, can I get your opinion?
Vegepygmy 02-26-07, 03:36 PM	I've given you my opinion. I also highlighted the key words because it appeared from your question that you either hadn't noticed them, or hadn't understood them. I can't really help you with "the other side of the argument." If someone is going to assert that the name of a creature is a "useful piece of information," they are clearly not interested in reasonably discussing the matter.
Jaxgaret 02-26-07, 03:43 PM	Apparently it's being argued that the name of a creature is a useful piece of information, and therefore you wouldn't get anything about the creature (Other than the name) until 15+HD and beyond. So again, rather than showing me the context of the skill I've already seen, can I get your opinion? My opinion: knowing the name of a creature is not useful in the slightest. What does it matter if the creature's name is the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Trall, or the Perfectly Normal Beast, or anything else? It doesn't make one whit of difference.
CowMasterTrojan 02-26-07, 06:40 PM	I've given you my opinion. I also highlighted the key words because it appeared from your question that you either hadn't noticed them, or hadn't understood them. I can't really help you with "the other side of the argument." If someone is going to assert that the name of a creature is a "useful piece of information," they are clearly not interested in reasonably discussing the matter. Listen, I'm not trying to be mean here, but frankly highlighting what I've already posted is not helpful. I'm not of either opinions, so don't start making assumptions that I'm getting pissy because I not. I'm posting this as a unbiased mediator. The situation I'm in has the DM saying that the name of a creature is useful, and another player is saying its not. The DM argues that saying something is a construct (or dragon or humanoid) is useful because most players can recognize something out of game and use that information against the creature with just a name. Good examples-Werewolf-You automatically know to use silver. vampires-Garlic, sunllight,moving water, etc. Kobolds-There's traps coming. So that is the Dm's argument. The other player argues that a name is not useful. All I'm asking for is a general opinion, because it's obviously a interpretation thing. It's not a matter of reasonably discussing anything. I just want to know how different people interpret it and why. Don't argue over it, don't discredit others, just give me opinions. Thank you
Dracomortis 02-26-07, 07:27 PM	MMIV features lore for all of the creatures, and uses (in my opinion the much better) method of 10 + CR to determine the base DC. However, translated into HD, this is generally what you get. 10 + HD: The creature's name, its type (and subtypes, if applicable), as well as the traits of that type. 15 + HD: A bit of information about the creature's general combat tactics (if it moves particularly fast, if it prefers ambush, if it can use spells, etc.). 20 + HD: More in-depth information, such as specific abilities (such as an assassin vine's ability to animate plants or a beholder's ability to nullify magic). 25 + HD: This check reveals some little-know fact about the creature that may help in defeating it - such as a behir's tendency to back off from overpowering opponents or a displacer beast's racial hatred of blink dogs.
Krusk 02-26-07, 07:33 PM	The DM argues that saying something is a construct (or dragon or humanoid) is useful because most players can recognize something out of game and use that information against the creature with just a name. Good examples-Werewolf-You automatically know to use silver. vampires-Garlic, sunllight,moving water, etc. Kobolds-There's traps coming. So that is the Dm's argument. The thing is. Technically giving the name does not reveal vampire use silver. So by your dm assuming you know these things, he is saying the name is useful. If it is played without this, characters do not know vampire means silver weapons. Meaning on a dc 10+HD the dm should say you "you know vampire, use silver" Your dm is leaving it to you to assume "vampire" means "vampire use silver.
CowMasterTrojan 02-26-07, 08:05 PM	MMIV features lore for all of the creatures, and uses (in my opinion the much better) method of 10 + CR to determine the base DC. However, translated into HD, this is generally what you get. 10 + HD: The creature's name, its type (and subtypes, if applicable), as well as the traits of that type. 15 + HD: A bit of information about the creature's general combat tactics (if it moves particularly fast, if it prefers ambush, if it can use spells, etc.). 20 + HD: More in-depth information, such as specific abilities (such as an assassin vine's ability to animate plants or a beholder's ability to nullify magic). 25 + HD: This check reveals some little-know fact about the creature that may help in defeating it - such as a behir's tendency to back off from overpowering opponents or a displacer beast's racial hatred of blink dogs. That's nice and layed out. The DM might like that. Thanks.
Dracomortis 02-26-07, 08:20 PM	No problem.
primemover003 02-26-07, 09:01 PM	According to the Tactics and Tips articles: A Peek Behind the Rules Curtain So how do designers determine the Difficulty Class for Knowledge checks about creatures? The following is excerpted from Monster Manual IV: The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special powers or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster's HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78). As a general rule of thumb, a DC 15 check or higher will reveal all of the base creature's type and subtype traits as defined in the glossary. This often includes information about energy resistance or various immunities. For instance, a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check reveals that dragons have high hit points (12-sided HD), all good saves, and have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. They eat, sleep, and breathe. Information specific to the creature, such as its type of damage resistance, spell-like abilities, or immunities come with the high DC check results. So an example of this is the Red Dragon Red Dragon Lore Characters with ranks in Knowledge (arcana) can learn more about red dragons. When a character makes a successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including the information from lower DCs. Knowledge (Arcana) DC Result 15 This also reveals the fire subtype. 20 The breath weapon of a red dragon produces a cone of fire. 25 Red dragons are immune to fire, but vulnerable to cold. At various stages of its life, a red dragon gains damage reduction: young adult -- DR 5/magic, mature adult -- DR 10/magic, very old -- DR 15/magic, and wyrm -- DR 20/magic. 30 At various stages of its life, a red dragon gains the following special abilities: juvenile -- locate object, old -- suggestion, ancient -- find the path, great wyrm -- discern location.