Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sark 05-24-07, 09:57 PM	I read a thread earlier today where some people were wrote "LA buyoff" for ECL adjusted characters. Where can I find out information about this/what/where/how much/if GM consent only etc? Thanks
MikeN 05-24-07, 10:08 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm Originally from Unearthed Arcana.
Tsuul 05-25-07, 01:04 AM	It's an optional rule, so def talk to your GM. I like it; can't see any obvious abuses with it.
Perun 05-25-07, 01:23 AM	It works best with LA +1 creatures with no racial HD. It's OK for LA +2 creatures, again with no racial HD (you get to buy one point off your LA at ECL 8), and it doesn't really do much for LA +3 (you get to buy the first point off your LA at ECL 12). It doesn't do much for LA +4 or above. A LA +1 creature will, probably, catch up with the non-LA crowd, XP-wise. LA +2 will lag behind for quite some time, but may catch up with the non-LA characters if the DM is generous, and LA +3 will always be at least one level behind. Regards.
Nat_20 05-25-07, 01:38 AM	Question... So say a Hob-Goblin reaches 3rd level in Fighter(ECL 4, 6000 XP)... He may pay 3000 XP (ECL 4 - 1 = 3 X 1000) to buy off his Lvl Adj... He is now a 3nd level fighter(3000 XP) with a party of 4th level characters. Wont he always be under them by 3000 XP, and thus be a level behind a bit of the time? Or is there a balancing out factor I'm not seeing...
Perun 05-25-07, 02:34 AM	Question... So say a Hob-Goblin reaches 3rd level in Fighter(ECL 4, 6000 XP)... He may pay 3000 XP (ECL 4 - 1 = 3 X 1000) to buy off his Lvl Adj... He is now a 3nd level fighter(3000 XP) with a party of 4th level characters. Wont he always be under them by 3000 XP, and thus be a level behind a bit of the time? Or is there a balancing out factor I'm not seeing... Lower-level characters receive proportionately more XP than their higher-level counterparts, for the same EL. The general ratio (spread over 20 levels) is roughly 1.3 or 1.2 to 1, in favour of the lower-level character (of course). Say you've got a party of four characters, three are 5th level, and one is 4th. They overcome an EL 5 challenge. EL 5 is worth 1,500 XP for 5th-levle characters, and 1,600 Xp for 4th level ones. To award the XP to 5th-level characters, the DM will divide 1,500 XP by 4 (the number of characters in the party), and award each of the three 5th-level character a total of 375 XP. Then he repeats the proces, only using 4th-level XP value, 1,600 XP. That divided by 4 is 400 XP, and the 4th-level character gets that much XP. The XP ratio in this example is only 1.067:1.
sark 05-25-07, 11:26 AM	Thanks for the information, greatly appreciated. One other question - does the pc lose a class die if they are buying off their LA? Thanks.
Perun 05-25-07, 11:40 AM	Thanks for the information, greatly appreciated. One other question - does the pc lose a class die if they are buying off their LA? Thanks. No, since their class level remains unchanged. A LA +1 character can buy off his LA at character level 3. He has (at least) 6,000 XP, since his effective character level (ECL) is 4 (class level + LA). When he buys his LA off, he has to pay 3,000 XP, which leaves him at 3,000 XP. His LA is now 0; his character level is unchanged (3), and his ECL is 3. Regards.
sark 05-25-07, 01:24 PM	Thanks. I thought I might end up losing some hp as well when doing the buyoff - it my GM allows it and if my char makes it that far. :) If he does at least he'll only be 2 real levels behind on barbarian - playing an ogre, 28 str. Smashee smashee. :)
Perun 05-25-07, 01:51 PM	Thanks. I thought I might end up losing some hp as well when doing the buyoff - it my GM allows it and if my char makes it that far. :) If he does at least he'll only be 2 real levels behind on barbarian - playing an ogre, 28 str. Smashee smashee. :) Eh? Ogres are LA +2, and if you're going to be two levels behind him after your LA buy-off... that means you're playing a high(-ish) LA race, right?
sark 05-25-07, 02:37 PM	In our campaign everyone is around level 6-9 so I picked ogre which, with the LA+2 gives me a barbarian level 1 - 5 race levels + 1 class level, so unless i'm mistaken, when i get xp for next level which will be a class level, at that point i can do an LA buyoff if the GM allows it. If i'm in error please let me know and show me in what way.
Perun 05-26-07, 01:16 AM	In our campaign everyone is around level 6-9 so I picked ogre which, with the LA+2 gives me a barbarian level 1 - 5 race levels + 1 class level, so unless i'm mistaken, when i get xp for next level which will be a class level, at that point i can do an LA buyoff if the GM allows it. If i'm in error please let me know and show me in what way. Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. So, you'd have to be a 6th-level barbarian (if you continue with that career choice), before you can reduce your LA by 1. As a 6th-level barbarian, you'll have 10 HD (6 class levels + 4 racial HD), and an ECL of 12 (your total HD +2 LA). At that point, you would have to pay 11,000 XP (your current ECL-1, times 1,000 XP), meaning your XP total will be reduced from 66,000 (minimum to be a level 12 character) to 55,000 (minimum fo a 11th level character). After that, you would be a 10-HD creature (6 barbarian levels + 4 racial HD) with an ECL of 11 (10 HD total + the newly reduced LA +1). If you wanted to buy the remaining LA point, you could do it at barbarian level 9 (13 total HD, ECL 14), by paying 13,000 XP ([14-1] x 1,000 XP). You'd end up as a 9th-level barbarian with 13 total HD, and an ECL of 13 (meaning no LA). The total cost is, therefore, 24,000 XP, and you can not "buy off" your racial HD. Hope this claryfies things. Regards.
navar100 05-26-07, 01:54 AM	The total cost is, therefore, 24,000 XP, and you can not "buy off" your racial HD. Hope this claryfies things. Regards. This is what bugs me. Hypothetically I'm playing a monstrous PC like a gnoll or an ogre, etc., why do I have to have all the starting HD? Why can't I just start with the normal HD a 1st level character gets. Let's take gnoll. I want to play a fighter. Why do I have to have the gnoll's 2 HD? Why can't I play a 1st level gnoll fighter with 10 hit points, just like any other 1st level fighter gets? I know some monstrous races have potent abilities and get an LA because of them, but the gnoll? An ogre has high strength. Ok, I can see some LA for that, but why can't I play a 1 HD ogre. Say I play an ogre barbarian. Why can't I start him off with 12 hit points like a normal barbarian and ignore the other three HD a "normal" ogre gets? Let's say there's still an LA because of the strength. For sake of arguement, let's say +1. I'd be playing a 1st level ogre barbarian with 12 + CO hit points total while everyone else is playing 2nd level characters. For whatever reason let's say I play a wizard instead. I'm a 1st level wizard who happens to be an ogre or gnoll, and I only have 4 + CO hit points. In all cases I get the 1st level BAB, the 1st level skill points, the 1st level saving throws, the 1st level feat and not get the monster statistics of these. I only get the racial attributes such as ability score adjustments, racial bonus to a skill or two, familiarity with a weapon perhaps (flindbar), just like any normal player character race.
Perun 05-26-07, 04:18 AM	This is what bugs me. Hypothetically I'm playing a monstrous PC like a gnoll or an ogre, etc., why do I have to have all the starting HD? Why can't I just start with the normal HD a 1st level character gets. Let's take gnoll. I want to play a fighter. Why do I have to have the gnoll's 2 HD? Why can't I play a 1st level gnoll fighter with 10 hit points, just like any other 1st level fighter gets? I know some monstrous races have potent abilities and get an LA because of them, but the gnoll? An ogre has high strength. Ok, I can see some LA for that, but why can't I play a 1 HD ogre. Say I play an ogre barbarian. Why can't I start him off with 12 hit points like a normal barbarian and ignore the other three HD a "normal" ogre gets? Let's say there's still an LA because of the strength. For sake of arguement, let's say +1. I'd be playing a 1st level ogre barbarian with 12 + CO hit points total while everyone else is playing 2nd level characters. For whatever reason let's say I play a wizard instead. I'm a 1st level wizard who happens to be an ogre or gnoll, and I only have 4 + CO hit points. In all cases I get the 1st level BAB, the 1st level skill points, the 1st level saving throws, the 1st level feat and not get the monster statistics of these. I only get the racial attributes such as ability score adjustments, racial bonus to a skill or two, familiarity with a weapon perhaps (flindbar), just like any normal player character race. A gnoll is designed as a "monster", and not intended to be played as a (regular) PC. It's also designed to be tougher than orcs or hobgoblins, so it has 2 racial HD. However, I could see house-ruled gnolls with no racial HD. With their LA +1, they should be balanced. But this is not universal, for creatures with racial HD can often be pretty unbalanced without their racial HD. Take a look at the ogre. When you "balance" its ability scores according to the DMG guidelines, your net gain is +6 Str. Combined with the 10-ft. reach, natural armour bonus, increased speed, both low-light and darkvision, etc., you get something that's pretty tough even for a 3rd-level character (that's what a 1-st level ogre with no racial HD would be), and might be deserving even a +3 LA (LA for creatures with racial HD is often lower than it should be because racial HD often isn't very good).
navar100 05-26-07, 11:58 AM	A gnoll is designed as a "monster", and not intended to be played as a (regular) PC. It's also designed to be tougher than orcs or hobgoblins, so it has 2 racial HD. However, I could see house-ruled gnolls with no racial HD. With their LA +1, they should be balanced. But this is not universal, for creatures with racial HD can often be pretty unbalanced without their racial HD. Take a look at the ogre. When you "balance" its ability scores according to the DMG guidelines, your net gain is +6 Str. Combined with the 10-ft. reach, natural armour bonus, increased speed, both low-light and darkvision, etc., you get something that's pretty tough even for a 3rd-level character (that's what a 1-st level ogre with no racial HD would be), and might be deserving even a +3 LA (LA for creatures with racial HD is often lower than it should be because racial HD often isn't very good). Right, I can accept there'll still be some LA for some monsters due to abilities. The ogre's +6 ST, natural armor, and reach deserves some LA. (My +1 was just for sake of argument as an example. That it should be a +3 I won't argue against.) I just don't want the extra HD and thus shave off LA/ECL cost because of those HD. I accept I don't get the accompanying BAB, saving throws, and feats that come with those HD. I'll be getting those from my class.
BugHunter 05-26-07, 02:35 PM	Buying off LA is covered in UA on page 28. You would not lose any hps since racial hit dice are not part of the LA but part of the ECL formula.
Tsuul 05-26-07, 03:14 PM	This is what bugs me. Hypothetically I'm playing a monstrous PC like a gnoll or an ogre, etc., why do I have to have all the starting HD? Why can't I just start with the normal HD a 1st level character gets.You could have your DM create a monsterous progression for your ogre. Basicly you start the game as a 1HD ogre, and as you level up you gain more and more ogre abilities. Things like the +8 Str would be given out in small amounts over time. Ogre is a 4HD monster with 2 LA, so it would be a 6 level "class". You could opt not to ever finish the ogre class, and shave off a HD, but you would be missing out on some of the ogres abilities (or some of those abilities wouldn't be at full). If you took the ogre progression out of Savage species, and wanted to skip the last HD, you would just opt out of taking the last two levels of the ogre class. You would also lose +4 str, large size, reach, +5 natural armor, and would gain +2 dex (because you have not lost it from gaining large size). Guessing that the size is pretty important to your character, losing that last HD is probably bad.
navar100 05-26-07, 07:41 PM	You could have your DM create a monsterous progression for your ogre. Basicly you start the game as a 1HD ogre, and as you level up you gain more and more ogre abilities. Things like the +8 Str would be given out in small amounts over time. Ogre is a 4HD monster with 2 LA, so it would be a 6 level "class". You could opt not to ever finish the ogre class, and shave off a HD, but you would be missing out on some of the ogres abilities (or some of those abilities wouldn't be at full). If you took the ogre progression out of Savage species, and wanted to skip the last HD, you would just opt out of taking the last two levels of the ogre class. You would also lose +4 str, large size, reach, +5 natural armor, and would gain +2 dex (because you have not lost it from gaining large size). Guessing that the size is pretty important to your character, losing that last HD is probably bad. Savage Species does this, but it's not what I want. I don't want to take levels in Ogre. I want to play a barbarian who just happens to be an ogre starting at 1st level with one hit die, adjusted for LA based upon the +6 strength, natural armor, and reach. Simpler, I may want to play a fighter who just happens to be a gnoll at 1st level and not have to take 2 levels in gnoll first then "multiclass" into fighter at 3rd level. I'm bothered the powers that be did not/do not/will not account for this. They "force" me to take the racial HD before I can take a character class.
Tsuul 05-26-07, 11:14 PM	an ogre starting at 1st level with one hit die, adjusted for LA based upon the +6 strength, natural armor, and reach. Some of the HD pays for those abilities as well. It's not just LA. I'd be wary to give a player what you're asking... Call me paranoid.
navar100 05-27-07, 12:00 AM	Some of the HD pays for those abilities as well. It's not just LA. I'd be wary to give a player what you're asking... Call me paranoid. Ok, you're paranoid. :P Monster HD pay for BAB, saving throws, and feats. LA pays for extraordinary abilities that outpace the standard races. If everyone starts at 1st level, sure, I can't play a 1st level ogre barbarian at the same time. If everyone starts at 3rd level, then I can play that 1st level ogre barbarian at the same time. Maybe an ogre might be too much. I can't hardly expect to play a 1st level (in total) hound archon paladin neither. A gnoll? Do I really, really, really need to be forced to take that 2nd monster HD? It's a given assumption the player has to work with the DM in creating a non-standard race character. By obviousness if I wanted to play an ogre barbarian or a hound archon paladin or a medusa ranger it's not going to be so easy. However, other monsters are not so troublesome. A gnoll? A bugbear? The racial HD are just not that important.
Tsuul 05-27-07, 01:02 AM	Monster HD pay for BAB, saving throws, and feats.Not all HD are the same. Vermin through Dragon. LA for a dragon may make up a much greater percentage of the ability cost, but vermin HD is just plain junk. Special abilities have to be added to even things out. Perhaps you could substitute 1 of an ogre's racial HD for class HD in the same fashion a 1 HD human substitutes its racial HD for class HD. But I can't see a way of getting around multiple HD without things breaking.
Decinious 05-27-07, 05:46 PM	If you don't mind Polymorph cheese... you can try to convince your DM to allow you to play an ogre with out the racial HD. Polymorph Any Object into creatures doesn't grant you the racial HD... though dispel magic can then be a pain...
navar100 05-27-07, 07:57 PM	Not all HD are the same. Vermin through Dragon. LA for a dragon may make up a much greater percentage of the ability cost, but vermin HD is just plain junk. Special abilities have to be added to even things out. Perhaps you could substitute 1 of an ogre's racial HD for class HD in the same fashion a 1 HD human substitutes its racial HD for class HD. But I can't see a way of getting around multiple HD without things breaking. I'm willing to accept the LA that must still be there due to abilities. I just don't want the HD that adds to the ECL. I'm playing a 1st level ogre barbarian. I'm everything a human 1st level barbarian is in the exact same way with the only exception being I'm an ogre instead of human. 1st level skill points. 12 + CO hit points. +1 BAB, +2 For, +0 Ref, +0 Wil. However, I do have +6 strength, natural armor, and 10' reach. I accept I can't hang around a 1st level human paladin, 1st level elf wizard, 1st level halfling rogue. Make them 3rd level then fine. I'm treated as a 3rd level character for XP. Make my ogre a gnoll, and I go to the 1st level character ball.
Nom 05-28-07, 01:38 AM	Firstly, I'm not sure why you would want to do this. Class levels are better than NPC class / monster levels are better than LA. Trading monstrous HD for LA just means that your character has more of his levels in LA, which negatively affects HP, feat acquisition, and vulnerability to HD-related effects. Thus, I can only assume you're trying to increase the % of class levels in your ECL. Since LA are worse than monstrous HD, one could conceivably trade away some number of monstrous HD for a smaller number of LA. This will generally make you weaker but would grant you a slightly higher class level at the same ECL. I suppose one could trade off two monstrous HD (or part thereof) for a +1 LA. I do hope barbarian is just an example. The only classes I'd even consider doing this for are pure spellcasters, and even then only with a relatively small LA (1-2). Trading HD for LA on a physical combatant is a bit like trading the ability to use armour and weapons in exchange for read magic as an at-will SLA.
navar100 05-28-07, 04:02 AM	I'd want to do it because I can choose the class features I want instead of what the monster HD tells me I must have. I want to do it because if I play a dedicated warrior, I don't want wizard or rogue like hit points. For example, a hypothetical monster has 4HD and LA +3. To play him as a 1st level fighter, everyone else in my party is 8th level. The human fighter has 10+7d10+CO hit points. I only have 8 + 3d8 +1d10 + CO hit points. I have less than half the fighter's hit points. I can't take as many hits as a level 8 fighter. He also has way, way many more feats than me. He is by far a much better fighter than me. If I don't have the monster hit dice but due to racial abilities I still have to have an LA of +2 (4HD accounted for +1 LA hypothetically, then when everyone else are at 8th level, I'm 6th level in the class. 2 for the level adjustment because of the racial abilities yet 6 levels for my class gives me 10 + 5d10 + CO hit points. Now I'm not so vulnerable getting into the thick of things as a dedicated warrior. I have my racial abilities that accounted for the LA +2. The human fighter has 2d10 more hit points, +2 BAB more, better saves, and one or two feats ahead of me depending on level. I'm treated as an 8th level character for purposes of XP so I'm always 2 class levels behind as per normal how LA works. The human fighter is still a better fighter, but now my racial abilities catch me up.
Aexalon 05-28-07, 07:01 AM	If I don't have the monster hit dice but due to racial abilities I still have to have an LA of +2 (4HD accounted for +1 LA hypothetically, then when everyone else are at 8th level, I'm 6th level in the class.Absolutely not. Eliminating the 4 racial HD in an even vaguely balanced way would not decrease but increase the LA by (at least) one. Why? Because racial hit dice are not part of a race's "benefit" package, but of the "penalty" package (you should have realised this as you were trying to get rid of them). As for yor specific case: MM3.5 p199-200 states ogre LA as +2, over their 4 racial hit dice. For this you get +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, size Large, 10' reach, move 40', Darkvision, and a +5 bonus to natural armour. If you can't manage to make a Ogre Barbarian 2 match a Human Fighter 8 in performance, there's ... something wrong.
Nom 05-28-07, 08:30 AM	I'd want to do it because I can choose the class features I want instead of what the monster HD tells me I must have.Monstrous HD don't have class features, except BAB, BSB, and skill points. Sans Savage Species, you get the monster package, plus a bunch of feature-free levels, plus some handicap levels. A generous DM might let you trade away some racial HD for more LA, but for most races this is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Racial HD are significantly better than nothing. In and of themselves, LA grant exactly nothing. I want to do it because if I play a dedicated warrior, I don't want wizard or rogue like hit points. For example, a hypothetical monster has 4HD and LA +3. To play him as a 1st level fighter, everyone else in my party is 8th level. The human fighter has 10+7d10+CO hit points. I only have 8 + 3d8 +1d10 + CO hit points. I have less than half the fighter's hit points. I can't take as many hits as a level 8 fighter. He also has way, way many more feats than me. He is by far a much better fighter than me.I'll take Alexon's Ogre example, but use fighter levels rather than barbarian. A human Ftr8 has BAB +8, F/R/W +6/+2/+2, 8d10+8*Con HD (48+8*Con hp), 30+10*Int skill points, +2 ability points, and 3+1+5=9 feats. An ogre Giant4/Ftr2 has BAB +5, F/R/W +7/+1/+1, 4d8+2d10+6*Con HD (32+6*Con hp), 16+8*Int skill points, +1 ability point, and 3+2=5 feats. So, on the surface he's down 3 BAB, 16+2*Con hp, and 4 feats (plus some miscellany). But he gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha. Also Large, speed 40, +5 natural armour, and darkvision. The +5 NA immediately wipes out (and then some) the -2 AC penalty from Dex and Large, but he keeps the reach and extra damage from bigger weapons. -4 Int and Cha wipe out skill points (to a minimum total of 9) and social skills, but if you were specialising in them you wouldn't play an ogre, right? +10 Str cancels the 3 BAB and -1 size penalty, leaving him at a net +1. Oh, and that's an extra +5 (or +7.5) to damage even before we figure the effects of Large. As for Con, that's an extra 12 hp, which doesn't quite make up the gap but comes close, and his Fort saves are at least +3 clear of the fighter's. Net result: +1 attack (no iterative yet), +lots damage, +3 AC, down 4+2*base Con hp, fewer skills, down four feats, +10 ft. movement. Ignoring reach, it's IMO about even, assuming four feats can make up the human's weaker AC and damage. Add reach and the human fighter is in serious trouble. For added fun, put your level 4 increase into Dex (14-2+1=13) and take the following feats: 1: Power Attack, 5: Dodge, 6: Mobility, Spring Attack. Dance in, SMACK!, dance away. Neatly avoids the BAB problem. Then add some Brb levels from ECL 9 (character level 7) onward for added speed and avoiding being caught flat-footed.
Perun 05-28-07, 08:41 AM	Ignoring reach, it's IMO about even, assuming four feats can make up the human's weaker AC and damage. Add reach and the human fighter is in serious trouble. For added fun, put your level 4 increase into Dex (14-2+1=13) and take the following feats: 1: Power Attack, 5: Dodge, 6: Mobility, Spring Attack. Dance in, SMACK!, dance away. Neatly avoids the BAB problem. Then add some Brb levels from ECL 9 (character level 7) onward for added speed and avoiding being caught flat-footed. If I were playing an ogre, I'd go over the top, for added fun -- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain). 2d6 + 1.5x(Str modifier) and a 20-ft. reach. Even if he couldn't qualify for Improved Trip (ogre's Int is probably well below 13), the reach makes up for it :D Might not be the optimal choice, but seems like loads of fun.
Zyrusticae 05-28-07, 09:12 AM	Sometimes I really do wonder... Anyways, Lotus Crane's Rebalanced Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634) helps solve the problem with LA immensely. All races are equally good choices for any character concept, which is great.
Tsuul 05-28-07, 12:21 PM	Its the LA making your ogre not have as many HP as the fighter. The LA buyoff option will fix that. As for fighter feats. They suck. Don't ever be envious of fighter feats. It is one sign of an incurable form of the "grass is greener on the other side" complex. As Nom mentioned, the monster HD is part of the penalty. An ogre without ogre flaws, is not an ogre. It's something new altogether; a munchkin. :D
Neutronium_Dragon 05-28-07, 01:02 PM	I should point out that while, in theory, racial hit dice are supposed to be a downside as far as race balance goes, their actual use as such is inconsistent at best. There are some races (like gnolls) where dumping the racial hit dice actually makes the LA appropriate rather than blatantly overcosted.
navar100 05-28-07, 07:03 PM	Monstrous HD don't have class features, except BAB, BSB, and skill points. Sans Savage Species, you get the monster package, plus a bunch of feature-free levels, plus some handicap levels. A generous DM might let you trade away some racial HD for more LA, but for most races this is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Racial HD are significantly better than nothing. In and of themselves, LA grant exactly nothing. I'll take Alexon's Ogre example, but use fighter levels rather than barbarian. A human Ftr8 has BAB +8, F/R/W +6/+2/+2, 8d10+8*Con HD (48+8*Con hp), 30+10*Int skill points, +2 ability points, and 3+1+5=9 feats. An ogre Giant4/Ftr2 has BAB +5, F/R/W +7/+1/+1, 4d8+2d10+6*Con HD (32+6*Con hp), 16+8*Int skill points, +1 ability point, and 3+2=5 feats. So, on the surface he's down 3 BAB, 16+2*Con hp, and 4 feats (plus some miscellany). But he gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha. Also Large, speed 40, +5 natural armour, and darkvision. The +5 NA immediately wipes out (and then some) the -2 AC penalty from Dex and Large, but he keeps the reach and extra damage from bigger weapons. -4 Int and Cha wipe out skill points (to a minimum total of 9) and social skills, but if you were specialising in them you wouldn't play an ogre, right? +10 Str cancels the 3 BAB and -1 size penalty, leaving him at a net +1. Oh, and that's an extra +5 (or +7.5) to damage even before we figure the effects of Large. As for Con, that's an extra 12 hp, which doesn't quite make up the gap but comes close, and his Fort saves are at least +3 clear of the fighter's. Net result: +1 attack (no iterative yet), +lots damage, +3 AC, down 4+2*base Con hp, fewer skills, down four feats, +10 ft. movement. Ignoring reach, it's IMO about even, assuming four feats can make up the human's weaker AC and damage. Add reach and the human fighter is in serious trouble. For added fun, put your level 4 increase into Dex (14-2+1=13) and take the following feats: 1: Power Attack, 5: Dodge, 6: Mobility, Spring Attack. Dance in, SMACK!, dance away. Neatly avoids the BAB problem. Then add some Brb levels from ECL 9 (character level 7) onward for added speed and avoiding being caught flat-footed. Acknowledged.