Leadership and Mounts as cohort [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leadership and Mounts as cohort [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lyndis
02-06-08, 02:33 AM Ok, so a cohort can have class levels based on how many levels you have and your Leadership score. But how does this work with a Special Mount? If I have a standard Warhorse as a mount, and I take Leadership and am a level 12 Paladin, how many class levels can my mount have?

Then, instead of a warhorse, what if I have taken Dragon Cohort instead, and gained a gold wyrmling as a special mount? How many class levels would the gold wyrmling have? The wyrmling has an ECL of 9 for the purposes of serving as a Cohort.
SkipSandwich
02-06-08, 11:06 AM in the case of the warhorse, none, since creatures with an Int of less then 3 can't advance by class level. I'd suggest getting either an awakened or celestial warhorse, both are ECL 6, and would then qualify for 4 class levels.

As for the wyrmling, it would have 1 class level, bringing it to ECL 10 and 2 less then your hit dice.

:EDIT: forgot the bit about the paladin levels. While you would not be able to advance a standard warhorse by class levels, you could advance your paladin's special mount, since it has an Int of 8. However, doing so would mean that you have a cohort that you can only call upon once per day, which may or may not matter to you. I suggest advancing your horse as a druid and having it pick up the natural spell feat so it can cast spells.
Lyndis
02-06-08, 11:02 PM But the cohort-mount already has a whole lot more hit-dice than me to begin with, thanks to a build I might be using. If I go Paladin5/Beastmaster2/Halfling Outrider10/Wild Plains Outrider3, my mount/animal companion has the following:

Character's effective druid level: 18
Character's effective paladin level: 15

Paladin: +8 HD, +10 natural armor, +4 Str, 9 Int (irrelevant because cohort has their own Int score), empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, improved speed, command creatures of its kind, spell resistance

Druid: +12 HD, +12 natural armor, +6 Str/Dex, link, share spells, devotion, Multiattack, improved evasion

Total: +20 HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, command creatures of its kind, devotion, empathic link, improved evasion, improved speed, Multiattack, share spells, share saving throws, spell resistance.

I need to know how many of these HD can be actual character levels. Shock-trooper gold/silver dragon Warblade or Crusader anyone?

I want to try to reproduce this with a dragon: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-529040
SkipSandwich
02-07-08, 08:20 AM none of those HD are (or can be) character levels, they are all levels of whatever creature type your mount is. Think of it this way, say you're playing lizardfolk character, so you've got two levels of humanoid (reptiallian), and one level of rogue, now, barring DM intervention, there is no way to swap out those humaniod HD for say, more levels of rogue.
Lyndis
02-07-08, 09:27 PM I think I understand now. I determine how many levels via the standard way of total ECL = My character's ECL -2. And then, after that, however many class there is, I'd just add the bonus HD and all that stuff on top of it. Interesting...
Divisionbyzer0
02-08-08, 01:58 AM double post
Divisionbyzer0
02-08-08, 02:05 AM The benefits provided by the "special mount" feature adjust the ECL of the creature by at least 2 presumably the benefits coming from "animal companion" will do similar.

Dragons don't gain exp if you take them as cohorts either, but they do age.

Depending on how you gain your mount / companion you may need "savage empathy" and "monstrous animal companion" feats. I'm not whether leadership supersedes this or not, or whether its sufficient for something to already be your mount for it to be your "companion" as well.

Also check out the holy mount feat. It lets you stack levels of all divine casters for determining the properties that come from the "special mount".
Lyndis
02-08-08, 02:32 AM Where is this feat from?
Divisionbyzer0
02-08-08, 02:36 AM DL the feat index from Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com). It's listed under paladin specific feats.

It's originally in Dragon Magazine #325, apparently.
Father Dale
02-08-08, 10:58 AM Note that if you are wanting a Dragon Mount as a cohort, the best way to do this is with the Draconic Cohort feat and not the Leadership feat (although you won't get any followers with the Draconic Cohort feat, but that might not be important to you). With the Draconic Cohort feat you can treat the Dragons ECL as 3 lower for the purpose of attracting a cohort; thus this will result in a more powerful Dragon cohort than what you can get with Leadership.

I had a post some time ago in "the Paladin's Handbook" thread on the CharOp board on using Dragon's as Special Mounts for Paladins. I'll repost it here as it answered many of your questions:

On Dragons as mounts:

For a Paladin who is going the mounted route, he will typically take the Spirited Charge feat. This means that the primary concerns for his mount are 1) survivability, and 2) maneuverability.

For a dragon mount you would have several options. 1) a dragon as a special mount under the paladins class feature; 2) a dragon as a cohort; 3) a dragon as a special mount and a cohort; or 4) just a regular dragon.

For a dragon as a special mount, the typical rule is to take Dragon Stead, and then get a young or very young Gold Dragon as a mount. The results at lvl 20, after applying the special mount qualities, are:

Very young Gold Dragon special mount: 15 HD (avg 143hps), speed 70ft, fly 210ft (poor), swim 70ft, 25 AC, 23 Str, Int 16, BAB +14, Base saves: 11/11/8, breath weapon 4d10(DC 18), empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, 6 total feats

young Gold dragon special mount: 16 HD (avg 152), speed 60ft, fly 200ft (poor), swim 60ft, 26 AC, 26 Str, Int 16, BAB +15, Base saves: 12/12/9, breath weapon 6d10(DC 20), empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, 6 total feats

Using the Draconic Cohort feat, the best you can do is to select a young Gold dragon cohort. This would be the same as above, only without the special mount improvements.

You could use the Draconic Cohort feat to call a mount as a cohort, and to get a dragon mount (see page 200 of the DMG). The end result is a -1 to the ECL of the dragon being chosen (-3 for Dragon Cohort feat, +2 for cohort special mount). Doing it this way would let you get a young or a very young gold dragon a level earlier than normal (15th or 19th respectively), but the abilities would be the same as above.

The other good option is a Pegasus. It will sacrifice some survivability in exchange for better maneuverability. Per the DMG a paladin can choose a Pegasus at 7th lvl, so it would get the full benefits of a paladin's mount at 17th lvl. The net result would be:

Pegasus special mount 12 HD (avg 90hps), speed 70ft, fly 130ft (avg), 24 AC, 22 Str, Int 10, BAB +10, Base saves: 10/10/3, empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, command creatures of its kind, SR 5+master's paladin level, 5 total feats

The biggest benefits of the pegasus are its eventual SR and its better flight maneuverability. If it used one of its feats on Improved Flight it would have good maneuverability, allowing to to hover, among other benefits. Still, it has substantially less hps, base saves and slightly less AC.

Another decent option is the Griffon which could be taken at paladin lvl 8. At 20th lvl it would look like this:

Griffon special mount 15 HD (avg 113hps), speed 40ft, fly 90ft (avg), 27 AC, 22 Str, Int 9, BAB +13, Base saves: 11/11/5, empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, command creatures of its kind, SR 5+master's paladin level, 6 total feats

This falls somewhere inbetween the maneuverability of the Pegasus and the survivability of the dragons. Over the dragons it has SR and better maneuverability vs more hps. Other differences are minor. The one drawback to the Griffon is the lower land speed.

I'd note that when I wrote that I didn't consider the impact of gaining experience by the Cohort. I'm not going to go through the calculations here, but if you did the Draconic Cohort thing, you would eventually end up with a Dragon mount who had more HD (althought not much more, due to the high LA for dragons).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyndis 02-06-08, 02:33 AM	Ok, so a cohort can have class levels based on how many levels you have and your Leadership score. But how does this work with a Special Mount? If I have a standard Warhorse as a mount, and I take Leadership and am a level 12 Paladin, how many class levels can my mount have? Then, instead of a warhorse, what if I have taken Dragon Cohort instead, and gained a gold wyrmling as a special mount? How many class levels would the gold wyrmling have? The wyrmling has an ECL of 9 for the purposes of serving as a Cohort.
SkipSandwich 02-06-08, 11:06 AM	in the case of the warhorse, none, since creatures with an Int of less then 3 can't advance by class level. I'd suggest getting either an awakened or celestial warhorse, both are ECL 6, and would then qualify for 4 class levels. As for the wyrmling, it would have 1 class level, bringing it to ECL 10 and 2 less then your hit dice. :EDIT: forgot the bit about the paladin levels. While you would not be able to advance a standard warhorse by class levels, you could advance your paladin's special mount, since it has an Int of 8. However, doing so would mean that you have a cohort that you can only call upon once per day, which may or may not matter to you. I suggest advancing your horse as a druid and having it pick up the natural spell feat so it can cast spells.
Lyndis 02-06-08, 11:02 PM	But the cohort-mount already has a whole lot more hit-dice than me to begin with, thanks to a build I might be using. If I go Paladin5/Beastmaster2/Halfling Outrider10/Wild Plains Outrider3, my mount/animal companion has the following: Character's effective druid level: 18 Character's effective paladin level: 15 Paladin: +8 HD, +10 natural armor, +4 Str, 9 Int (irrelevant because cohort has their own Int score), empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, improved speed, command creatures of its kind, spell resistance Druid: +12 HD, +12 natural armor, +6 Str/Dex, link, share spells, devotion, Multiattack, improved evasion Total: +20 HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, command creatures of its kind, devotion, empathic link, improved evasion, improved speed, Multiattack, share spells, share saving throws, spell resistance. I need to know how many of these HD can be actual character levels. Shock-trooper gold/silver dragon Warblade or Crusader anyone? I want to try to reproduce this with a dragon: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-529040
SkipSandwich 02-07-08, 08:20 AM	none of those HD are (or can be) character levels, they are all levels of whatever creature type your mount is. Think of it this way, say you're playing lizardfolk character, so you've got two levels of humanoid (reptiallian), and one level of rogue, now, barring DM intervention, there is no way to swap out those humaniod HD for say, more levels of rogue.
Lyndis 02-07-08, 09:27 PM	I think I understand now. I determine how many levels via the standard way of total ECL = My character's ECL -2. And then, after that, however many class there is, I'd just add the bonus HD and all that stuff on top of it. Interesting...
Divisionbyzer0 02-08-08, 01:58 AM	double post
Divisionbyzer0 02-08-08, 02:05 AM	The benefits provided by the "special mount" feature adjust the ECL of the creature by at least 2 presumably the benefits coming from "animal companion" will do similar. Dragons don't gain exp if you take them as cohorts either, but they do age. Depending on how you gain your mount / companion you may need "savage empathy" and "monstrous animal companion" feats. I'm not whether leadership supersedes this or not, or whether its sufficient for something to already be your mount for it to be your "companion" as well. Also check out the holy mount feat. It lets you stack levels of all divine casters for determining the properties that come from the "special mount".
Lyndis 02-08-08, 02:32 AM	Where is this feat from?
Divisionbyzer0 02-08-08, 02:36 AM	DL the feat index from Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com). It's listed under paladin specific feats. It's originally in Dragon Magazine #325, apparently.
Father Dale 02-08-08, 10:58 AM	Note that if you are wanting a Dragon Mount as a cohort, the best way to do this is with the Draconic Cohort feat and not the Leadership feat (although you won't get any followers with the Draconic Cohort feat, but that might not be important to you). With the Draconic Cohort feat you can treat the Dragons ECL as 3 lower for the purpose of attracting a cohort; thus this will result in a more powerful Dragon cohort than what you can get with Leadership. I had a post some time ago in "the Paladin's Handbook" thread on the CharOp board on using Dragon's as Special Mounts for Paladins. I'll repost it here as it answered many of your questions: On Dragons as mounts: For a Paladin who is going the mounted route, he will typically take the Spirited Charge feat. This means that the primary concerns for his mount are 1) survivability, and 2) maneuverability. For a dragon mount you would have several options. 1) a dragon as a special mount under the paladins class feature; 2) a dragon as a cohort; 3) a dragon as a special mount and a cohort; or 4) just a regular dragon. For a dragon as a special mount, the typical rule is to take Dragon Stead, and then get a young or very young Gold Dragon as a mount. The results at lvl 20, after applying the special mount qualities, are: Very young Gold Dragon special mount: 15 HD (avg 143hps), speed 70ft, fly 210ft (poor), swim 70ft, 25 AC, 23 Str, Int 16, BAB +14, Base saves: 11/11/8, breath weapon 4d10(DC 18), empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, 6 total feats young Gold dragon special mount: 16 HD (avg 152), speed 60ft, fly 200ft (poor), swim 60ft, 26 AC, 26 Str, Int 16, BAB +15, Base saves: 12/12/9, breath weapon 6d10(DC 20), empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, 6 total feats Using the Draconic Cohort feat, the best you can do is to select a young Gold dragon cohort. This would be the same as above, only without the special mount improvements. You could use the Draconic Cohort feat to call a mount as a cohort, and to get a dragon mount (see page 200 of the DMG). The end result is a -1 to the ECL of the dragon being chosen (-3 for Dragon Cohort feat, +2 for cohort special mount). Doing it this way would let you get a young or a very young gold dragon a level earlier than normal (15th or 19th respectively), but the abilities would be the same as above. The other good option is a Pegasus. It will sacrifice some survivability in exchange for better maneuverability. Per the DMG a paladin can choose a Pegasus at 7th lvl, so it would get the full benefits of a paladin's mount at 17th lvl. The net result would be: Pegasus special mount 12 HD (avg 90hps), speed 70ft, fly 130ft (avg), 24 AC, 22 Str, Int 10, BAB +10, Base saves: 10/10/3, empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, command creatures of its kind, SR 5+master's paladin level, 5 total feats The biggest benefits of the pegasus are its eventual SR and its better flight maneuverability. If it used one of its feats on Improved Flight it would have good maneuverability, allowing to to hover, among other benefits. Still, it has substantially less hps, base saves and slightly less AC. Another decent option is the Griffon which could be taken at paladin lvl 8. At 20th lvl it would look like this: Griffon special mount 15 HD (avg 113hps), speed 40ft, fly 90ft (avg), 27 AC, 22 Str, Int 9, BAB +13, Base saves: 11/11/5, empathic link, share spells, improved evasion, share saving throws, command creatures of its kind, SR 5+master's paladin level, 6 total feats This falls somewhere inbetween the maneuverability of the Pegasus and the survivability of the dragons. Over the dragons it has SR and better maneuverability vs more hps. Other differences are minor. The one drawback to the Griffon is the lower land speed. I'd note that when I wrote that I didn't consider the impact of gaining experience by the Cohort. I'm not going to go through the calculations here, but if you did the Draconic Cohort thing, you would eventually end up with a Dragon mount who had more HD (althought not much more, due to the high LA for dragons).